banjo~gal - Posted - 06/27/2009:  12:18:04

Hey guys

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about the Windsor banjos? I found one thats a Windsor Deluxe model number 3 and don't know whether it's worth getting or how much its value would be or any othre info..

Thankss, Hannah xx

~ .x. Home is where the Banjo is .x. ~

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 06/27/2009:  12:37:05

Dear Hannah,

Though the zither was essentially an “American invention,” it caught on in Britain, and was the banjo of choice for a long while, in the late 1800s/early 1900s, especially because it lent itself well to a finger style playing.

That contemporary British collectors don’t think much of the zither, with the exception of a small knot of dedicated fanatics, is best demonstrated by quoting A.P. Sharpe, who was serving as editor of the Clifford Essex Company’s publication, “B.M.G.” at the time he penned the following words, probably in the early 1970s.

Sharpe states: “Monstrosities that have lain hidden in attics or junk shops for many years are being unearthed, dusted off and abortive attempts made to make them playable. Many of these old attic discoveries and junk shop “finds” are virtually useless as musical instruments. Most are the crude large and deep hoop tack-head “tubs” of the minstrel era whilst some are even six-and seven- string unfretted instruments over eighty years old that were never intended for anything more ambitious than an elementary vamping accompaniment …” Neither are worth spending any money on.”

See A Complete Guide to the Instruments of the Banjo Family, London: Clifford Essex Music Company, Ltd., no date, p. 5. This booklet was probably published during the early 1970s.

His reference to large tub-like banjos from the minstrel era was grossly wrong. These banjos go for big bucks.

His comments on multi-stringed rigs in the zither configuration might be more on target. However, they are architecturally interesting, especially some of those manufactured for the British market in the early 1900s by German-based musical instrument companies.

My minor experience is that they can’t be set up satisfactorily for clawhammer, and are rather quiet for up picking. They look nice on walls, though. And they represent the high point in British ingenuity regarding hardware, tension hoops, and hooks. Some are rather clever.

Insofar as market/collecting value, as a noted banjo collector used to say, any banjo is only as valuable as the amount of money you’d be willing to spend to have it in your inventory right now.

Good luck,

Lew


Lew Stern
Chief Surgeon
Little Bear Banjo Hospital
Arlington, VA

"Working To Rescue Vintage Banjos From Modernity"
WEBSITE:
http://www.littlebearbanjohospital.com

Bill Rogers - Posted - 06/27/2009:  12:37:24

I think that's a zither banjo. Unless you like the sound of zither banjos and want one, the answer is likely no. But if it's not a zither banjo, it may well be worthwhile, but we'd have to see pix to know.

Bill

banjonz - Posted - 06/27/2009:  14:31:56

While there were Windsor Zither banjos, they also made standard 5 string ones. I have seen a number of them over the years, mostly they had a huge number of bracket hooks which made the instrument quite heavy. I am not familiar with the 'Deluxe model #3' so if you can post some pix of it, it would help to identify it and better be able to comment.

Wayne
New Zealand


My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my short-term memory''s not as sharp as it used to be.

deuceswilde - Posted - 06/27/2009:  14:46:39

Yes, is it a closed back take on the Dobson patent (top tension)? There seems to be a recent surge in zither banjos on the market. I have seen folks giving them dates of 1880-1900. They seem to be forgetting that they were made until the factory took a bomb during WW2.

I say if it is a zither banjo, and you can get it for less than $300 in good to go condition, buy it. Then join the classic banjo ning group and learn the proper way to play it.

-Joel Hooks

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

goldtopia - Posted - 06/27/2009:  22:20:28

I have never liked zither banjos. I have owned them many years ago and never kept them for long. They are not suited to bluegrass or frailing, in fact I have never considered them suitable for anything. Maybe just as a collectors curio and that's about all.

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

diarmaid - Posted - 06/28/2009:  08:46:46

Hannah, the Wndsor banjos went from some pretty crappy zither banjos to some really nice copies of paramounts and some of the other leading brands, depending on the particular model (excluding the zither banjos) if you can get one for the right price, they can be excellent banjos, my first banjo was a Windsor premier and it sounded grand...heres a middleof the road Windsor banjo thats really pretty good value.
http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/37X1177-u-page.htm

theres one on ebay now if youre quick that you might get even cheaper

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Windsor-Whirl...arms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1688|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

goldtopia - Posted - 06/28/2009:  09:49:06

Yes, there are some good Windsor's but zither banjos of any make are not good for what most people want, except as collectors pieces.

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

trapdoor2 - Posted - 06/28/2009:  11:40:11

I have a Windsor #1 ZB which I like very much, thank you. Zither Banjos have a unique sound that some (obviously) don't find appealing. However, the better ones are quite finely made and comfortable to play.

They were designed to have a 'singing' tone (more sustain than a modern banjo) and do very well with tunes which can use that sound. They're also more often strung with a combination of steel strings and nylon (Steel on 1, 2 and 5, Nylon on 3 and wound silk or nylon on 4). Mine is strung with nylgut all the way.

The Zither-Banjo website (which includes the open back Windsors and Weavers) is here: http://www.zither-banjo.org

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

banjo~gal - Posted - 07/07/2009:  09:33:43

thanks guys for all your info, really helped :)


xxxx

~ .x. Home is where the Banjo is .x. ~

rf.mas - Posted - 07/29/2009:  18:57:28

G'day Hannah
If you go to: http://www.zither-banjo.org/pages/windsornew.htm
you can download an excel file of the Windsor model details from their 1917 and 1931 catalogues. You will see that the Deluxe Number 3 was close to top of the range, selling for 24 pounds in 1931. (Also gives you all the specs)

My Ideal Number 8 was a modest 3 pounds 12s 6d! But I like it! Major advantage is its weight = less than 3kg or around 6 pounds. My shoulders like that!

It was given to me over 20 years ago and I recently replaced and tuned the head and the sound is not bad. With picks it has a nice crisp tone. For frailing it lacks depth and warmth. However I can put up with that for the moment while I get myself up to speed. Maybe then I'll look at one of the modern lightweight resonator makes/models.

So I'd certainly look closely at your De Luxe No 3.

Good luck!
Roger
New Zealand

tanglefingers - Posted - 07/29/2009:  21:48:03

quote:

---

There seems to be a recent surge in zither banjos on the market. I have seen folks giving them dates of 1880-1900. They seem to be forgetting that they were made until the factory took a bomb during WW

---

goldtopia - Posted - 07/29/2009:  22:34:09

The zither banjo was an English invention by Alfred D. Cammeyer. The pioneer of this type or style of banjo was Temlett.
http://www.shlomomusic.com/zitherbanjo.htm

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

Edthebanjo - Posted - 07/30/2009:  02:54:03

How much is it going for? My friend picked one up for fiver, and got a really good deal (not a Windsor though). I think a Windsor is worth around 200 quid ow, but don't quote me on that! :P

What has 10 legs, 3 teeth, and no hair?
A bluegrass band!

goldtopia - Posted - 07/30/2009:  05:34:35

It depends what Windsor it is. A cheap one may only be about £50. There are a lot of them about

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

Phazako - Posted - 08/06/2009:  19:01:47

Hi Guys (and Gals)
My grandfather used to own/run a Dance Band in the UK back in the 1920's/30's.

His instuments have been passed down to me now that my father (80) cant really play them anymore.

I was thinking of getting some of them refurbished but before I do that I thought I'd better find out a little about them.

I'm stuck on a 5-string Banjo that is clearly stamped on the head with "The Windsor" "Artiste" "Patent" "Model" "S".

I can find Windsor, Artist and Models 2,3,4 on the Web but not this model.

Is it a genuine Windsor, or is it a "pirate copy" cashing in on the name perhaps?

Has anybody any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

Phazako (uk)

goldtopia - Posted - 08/06/2009:  23:21:09

The Windsor is most probably genuine. The English are not prone to making pirate copies - it is not the British way of doing things. There were so many old English banjos in those days and Windsor made the most with many models and variations. No doubt you have already looked at the websites: http://www.zither-banjo.org/pages/windsornew.htm http://www.whitetreeaz.com/vintage/brit3.htm which does not give sufficient information for what you want to know. About a month ago there was someone on BHO that is quite knowledgeable about Windsors. lets hope he can help.

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

revdmike - Posted - 08/07/2009:  02:23:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by goldtopia

Yes, there are some good Windsor's but zither banjos of any make are not good for what most people want, except as collectors pieces.

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

---

Phazako - Posted - 08/07/2009:  02:46:53

Thanks for that Bill, I wait with baited breathe for more news.

The "action" is a little high on this instrument due to the arm lifting slightly from the pan but knowing that it's probably a genuine Windsor (and of course the sentimental value it has) I think I'll get quotes for it's refurbishment. The vellum is in good nick but the vanish finish is all cracked and "distressed" with age. The original ivory nut is cracked and the little 5th string peg is missing. The inlays on the arm are in good nick too.

I think that if I can get the arm stuck back to where it belongs and the other little bits sorted, I could end up with a reasonable instrument.

All I need to now is to convert my 7 years Classical Guitar training and Grade 7 on the piano into Blue Grass banjo playing. Any ideas?

And so to next week. That has to be a trip to visit Dad and get the next banjo which I personally haven't seen for over 35years as it's been in it's case stored in the back of a wardrobe. I do think though that i remember that being a Windsor too but it has a much longer arm with some nice pearl inlays.

You take care you lot.

Phaz

Phazako (uk)

goldtopia - Posted - 08/07/2009:  03:35:39

Hello Phaz,
Last year I restored an old Windsor. It was not a zither. I had problems getting a lower action, there was no adjustment. The only way was by taking a bit off the feet of the bridge which was still not sufficient but was playable. The other banjo your Dad has sounds rather interesting, it may be more than you expect.
Years ago I use to have many old English banjos, part exchanging them almost every month. The problem was usually the same - action too high with no proper adjustment. Also the necks were often quite thick and heavy compared to modern banjos which now have torsion rods in the neck. The only way would be too buy something rather more upmarket like a Clifford Essex or a Cammeyer, but I could not afford anything like. I did eventaually find a really nice banjo (don't remember the make) with an etched brass resonator and hoop which was filled in with colours. Once when busking in Portobabello Road Market in London playing an Ibanez an American spotted it in its case and like a fool I sold it to him. Anyway that was back in the 70s. I now play a Fitch Palomino which should last me the rest of my life. Although there are some really nice Windsor's as you say, but If you are serious about playing bluegrass they are not the ideal choice because of the different kind of sound that you get from bluegrass banjos. Anyway, it may be that you are happy playing bluegrass on a Windsor. I started that way.

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

Phazako - Posted - 08/07/2009:  03:59:58

Re banjo - Interesting. I'll keep you posted.

Re busking. never done it myself but I can recall my grandfather telling me that he used to busk on the streets in the Clapham area, (South London) where he lived and I was eventually born. His favourite haunt was the Landor Road area (it's still there).
The storey goes that one Saturday evening he was busking outside one of the pubs when the landlord came out and said,
"What the hell are you doing busking outside my pub?"
My grandfather replied,
"Sorry gov, we don't want any trouble, we'll move on."
"No you won't", said the landlord, "get your arse in here and play - my custmers love you".

And that's how my grandfather became a builder by day and an entertainer by night with regular bookings. His little group grew and eventually became a fully fledged Dance Band called the "Hazwells" (My grandfather being Mr. Hazzard and Mr. Wells being his co-band leader). Their signature tune was "Thats-a-plenty" and i still have his original score somewhere. i can remember him playing it to me when i was a lad.

Enough remenising.

If anybody can recall anything about them I'd be interested in that too.

Phazako (uk)