AfterHours - Posted - 06/09/2009:  05:48:26

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Hey guys, like most newbies I'm working off of Mike Iverson's tab collection (thank you very very much sir they're great!) and I've run into "Banish Misfortune" which is right here:

http://www.bluesageband.com/Tab%20p...sfortune.pdf

Its the first tab I've seen with grace notes, or rather ones that I didn't want to ignore, and I'm kind of not sure how to get the proper sound out of certain ones, especially the first grace note 5 into the 3 at the very beginning of the tab. It's very important to the song but I'm not sure what to do. I've tried a pull-off and it sounds pretty rough. A slide down from 5 to 3 sounds pretty good but its quite cumbersome to do.

How would you guys play these grace notes? Mr. Mike Iverson, what about yourself?

Any input and tips would be appreciated on grace notes in general, I've ignored them long enough!

Thanks.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 06/09/2009:  06:53:46

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Pull-off. Ya gotta just practice it until it sounds clean. These middle-of-the-banjo pull-offs are always a pain...but worth the work to get 'em right.

===Marc

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have made them that way."

Matt Buckley - Posted - 06/09/2009:  07:18:23

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quote:

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Originally posted by AfterHours

Hey guys, like most newbies I'm working off of Mike Iverson's tab collection (thank you very very much sir they're great!) and I've run into "Banish Misfortune" .... Its the first tab I've seen with grace notes, or rather ones that I didn't want to ignore, and I'm kind of not sure how to get the proper sound out of certain ones,

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The reason it's the first tab you've seen with gracenotes is that Mike has tabbed out a traditional Irish tune. It's not considered a traditional OT tune. Gracenotes are very important, indeed vital, in Irish music, and there have been interesting and helpful discussions over the past year on the Hangout regarding the appropriateness of playing traditional Irish music on the 5-string. In the end it's your call.

I mention this only because you may want to consider the time put in in learning a skill that is largely appplicable to other than OT tunes, albeit some limited and tasteful gracing can take place in OT tunes. If you find you are very much interested in learning trad. Irish tunes on the five string, you may want to consult with Tom Hanway, a Hangout regular, on his viewpoint. He's a fine player of Irish tunes on the 5-string. Or you may want to consider moving to a 4-string plectrum banjo where you can really take on, in authentic fashion, trad. Irish tunes and gracings.



Cheers, Matt

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 06/09/2009:  09:56:58

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Hey Matt,

Grace notes often get short shrift in old-time banjo transcriptions, but they are played and vital as well, in the fiddle playing too. Now maybe not a crann or a long roll...

Hunter

Old Time Music for Body & Soul - www.hunterrobertson.com

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/09/2009:  14:35:31

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I'm with Hunter here. The grace notes are frequently the difference between a successful arrangement and a dog that howls "beginner" to the world.

If you have Rocket Science Banjo you have a bunch of old time tunes with grace notes that are playable with the computer's MIDI, so you can hear the timing of them. Were I to try to write out the actual value of a grace note it would probably be a little less than a 32nd note - that makes for really awful looking notation, which is why the grace note was invented.

So either get out your RSB or download it from this website (it is free) http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

then get the MIDI reader (TEFView) at Tabledit.com (also free)
http://tabledit.com
and MIDI play a few tunes with grace notes to get the idea. I haven't tabbed out my old version of "Banish Miss Fortune" aka "The Spanish Misfortune", as my only version is a Melodic tab. I do intend to add it asn some others to the Tab Bonanza but I want to add some not-so-melodic versions at the same time. Besides there isn't much call for the contra tunes these days - or at least not directed toward me.

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which number around 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Cathy Moore - Posted - 06/10/2009:  06:31:10

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Here's another vote for pull-offs. They'll come with practice.

Cathy

Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorld
Illinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com

krayzeemick - Posted - 06/10/2009:  07:35:39

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Hi After Hours,
Usually when you see these grace notes in Irish stuff, they are not true grace notes. This one would be referred to as a cut. What it does is bring emphases to the actual note played. In this case the 3. I don't know how Mike plays it, but if you want to get the Irish trad effect, it would be a quick pull off. So quick you might not hear any discernible pitch. Listening to good Irish players is key to developing a feel for this type of music. Ken Perlman is a good source of knowledge when it comes to playing this type of music clawhammer style.

I hope this helps you,
Dave

sundance kid - Posted - 06/10/2009:  08:28:11

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Mike teaches them as pulloffs. He's got me working on Rory O'Moore (along with a zillion other things) right now. What he taught me was basically try to do the pulloff (witht the left hand) at the same time as you strike the string (with the right hand). Somehow, the right hand always seems to win that little race and it comes out OK (to a first level of approximation, which is presumably refined by years of practice).

bobjo - Posted - 06/10/2009:  14:18:18

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Great, now Banish Misfortune will be playing in my head all evening.

As an aside, Jon Anderson of Yes put a mystic spin on that tune in the song "Timing of the Known" off of his Celtic solo album "The Promise Ring".

b

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/10/2009:  14:51:04

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grace notes can be pull-offs, hammer-ons or slides. It depends on where the garce note is in relationship to the main note - and how you choose to get it.

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which number around 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Matt Buckley - Posted - 06/10/2009:  14:58:49

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Just to be clear, I did indicate in my post that there is a place for tasteful gracing in OT.

But several experienced and influential OT banjo folks would argue that overly fancy gracing in OT threatens to take OT banjo away from its roots and into the realm of something else entirely. I agree with this viewpoint (fully realizing, of course, that many will disagree vigorously). Indeed, if you listen carefully to many of the top OT players, gracing is limited and reserved, and at times absent all together. It's most often heard in the hands of the more melodic players, e.g. Ken Perlman, who are playing Irish, Cape Breton, Scottish etc. on the banjo. In that context, I think extensive gracing is necessary and appropriate. We've gone around before as to whether what they are doing is effective or not, and I'm not here to argue that point. But as to strictly OT banjo, I just don't often encounter frequent use of grace notes.

Cheers, Matt

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/10/2009:  15:17:18

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Listen to Fred Cockerham, Kyle Creed, Buell Kazee, Roscoe Holcomb, Hedy West, Mike Seeger, Pete Seeger, practically anyone.

You are probably mistaking the rather delicate trills of some modern players of the "Old Time As Chamber Music" school. The last 40 years has also seen the rise of Sligoism in Irish fiddling and those who would reproduce it on the banjo. This really is more of a rococo decoration style than simple grace notes.

If you think the grace notes are an affectation in old time, download RSB and try playing the arrangements without the grace notes. My book is not the only one with grace notes - but it is the one where you can play the grace notes on your MIDI and hear how they will actually sound. You will find grace notes in most any usable book of clawhammre banjo and in all the good ones. It is as much a part of the music as stompin' your foot and chewin some baccy.

Well.... As much a part as stamping your foot, at least. Baccy chewers please stay on the lawn.

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which number around 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 06/10/2009:  16:12:32

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Hey Matt,

Now, I wasn't talking about ponderous "I-will-be very-melodic-and-insert-grace-notes" aesthetics. But if we're talking about the slight notes that break up, intervene, and decorate, I think you can find examples in Wade Ward's playing (say June Apple), Charlie Lowe's (Tater Patch, that 1st fret 2nd string is not a "clean" note, it's hammered to I believe) and Hobart Smith's extensive pulling-off and hammering-on. For fiddling, let's say John Salyer's "Lonesome John", William Stepp's "Ways of the World" or Luther Strong's "Bonaparte's Retreat". Without those "extraneous" notes, the tunes are like dry, white, bread. A beginner's "Old Joe Clark" with concrete boots. Compare something like that with Marcus Martin's "Old Joe Clark" and you'll see what I mean. I think those notes are as much a part of the tune, or a version of the tune, as the "basic" melody and rhythm. In fact, I don't think there is such a thing as the basic melody, you can diminish a tune to its basic notes, but that's like parsing a sentence: you suck all the life out of it and reduce it to grammatical components that don't mean anything in the end.

I think people come up with certain philosophies regarding banjo playing; some go to a less is more approach and get kind of puritanical about it.

My regards to Vermont!

Hunter


Old Time Music for Body & Soul - www.hunterrobertson.com

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Edited by - Hunter Robertson on 06/10/2009 16:16:23

Matt Buckley - Posted - 06/10/2009:  16:14:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Listen to Fred Cockerham, Kyle Creed, Buell Kazee, Roscoe Holcomb, Hedy West, Mike Seeger, Pete Seeger, practically anyone.

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I have. A great deal. I stand by my previous comments. The gracing the above folks are doing is limited, tasteful and spare.

I think it would be helpful to define terms, since I suspect that's where part of the difficulty rests. The "brushes" and "rolls" found in Fred's and Kyle's playing, for example, would, in my view, probably qualify as gracings in your view, as would chucks, quick pick-up notes and other means of shading the melody. That all might come under the heading of gracing.

But some of the gracing that has crept into OT banjo playing over the past generation is very much akin to the more melodic and intricate gracing inherent in the relatively pure forms of celtic music, i.e. Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, etc. That form of gracing is far more ornamental than anything Kyle, Wade, Fred et. al. would have recognized as appropriate. It's that approach, e.g. your "delicate trills", to ornamentation that I find can get in the way of a beautiful, simple mountain tune.

You argue, Tony, that " you will find grace notes in most any usable book of clawhammreerbanjo and in all the good ones". In the years I learned to play, I regularly consulted Krassen, Leftwich, Burke and Levenson. I include them among the "good ones". Except for brushes and rolls at the appropriate places, all of these books are remarkably free of what musicians commonly recognize as grace notes, and instead concentrate on those "shadings", i.e. means of playing the melody, that make it all come alive, e.g. slides, hammers, etc.

My suspicion is that we're in violent agreement here, just unable to define what we're talking about.

Cheers, Matt

Matt Buckley - Posted - 06/10/2009:  16:25:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hunter Robertson

I think you can find examples in Wade Ward's playing (say June Apple), Charlie Lowe's (Tater Patch, that 1st fret 2nd string is not a "clean" note, it's hammered to I believe) and Hobart Smith's extensive pulling-off and hammering-on.

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As you'll see in my post responding to Tony, I actually think we agree. I see hammers, for example, not as a gracenote per se, but as a means of playing the melody in a manner that adds taste and flavor.

There is a fascinating parallel in Highland piping. Formal Highland pipe music is crammed astonisingly full of "gracenotes". Those of you who have glanced at pipe music probably have been amazed at the ratio of "little" notes to "big" notes. Some of those "gracenotes" are absolutely necessary to play the melody, as the sound with pipes cannot be stopped, it can only be separated. So, for example, to play a low A on the chanter, you need to place a "gracenote" somewhere higher on the ground to produce the sound of two low As in succession. In that instance, the "gracenote", if you will, has a technical function that has nothing to do with ornamentation and is instead all about playing the notes. On the other hand, other more detailed and complex "gracenote" techniques on the pipes, i.e. grips, birls, etc. can serve both a technical function as well as a highly ornamental function.

So, a hammer may be your "gracenote" but is instead my view of how to play two, perhaps three, successive melody notes. I don't disagree, therefore, at all with your above statement.

Funny thing. Those arguing with me hear would hear my playing and say "he's playing gracenotes". I would say "not so much".

Sorry if I upset folks. There are far more important topics at hand tonight, e.g. Red Sox vs. Yankees.

Cheers, Matt

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Edited by - Matt Buckley on 06/10/2009 16:27:49

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/10/2009:  16:41:21

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Once again we are in fact, separated only by language - this is a problem that will exist in discussions on a text only forum. If I could play my banjo into the computer (I know I should be able to but it really is a PITA, and for others to listen to it involved just as much PITA - to say nothing of the equipment ans software thingy)

As I was saying - if I could simply play some examples into the computer we could actually come to common terms and argue from there. Text is pretty much unable to describe music - if it could there would be no reason to play the music.

Once I have my Mac with the built in webcam up and running I suspect I will be able to come somewhat closer to what I really want to convey. But so far I haevn't even figure out how to get it into the "network" if we indeed even have a network at this time.

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which number around 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 06/10/2009:  16:42:02

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Boy, what a boring life if we were to define our terms first--there wouldn't be nearly so much pointless, but invigorating, argument.

Hunter



Old Time Music for Body & Soul - www.hunterrobertson.com

Cathy Moore - Posted - 06/10/2009:  17:26:03

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Since we're all clarifying here, I'll point out that my long-ago vote for pull-offs was in response to the original question about a specific measure in a specific tab. Obviously, pull-offs aren't the only way to get grace notes.

Cathy

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/10/2009:  19:34:47

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Hunter

Define "Boring" please

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which number around 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 06/11/2009:  02:15:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Hunter

Define "Boring" please

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Watching TV rather than thinking about grace notes.

Hunter

Old Time Music for Body & Soul - www.hunterrobertson.com

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/11/2009:  15:07:07

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I knew my life was boring - why did you have to make it so abundantly clear?

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which number around 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material