tom clunie - Posted - 05/31/2009:  08:00:39

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I hope the moderators keep this topic here - I would think bluegrassers could care less about anything nylon string-related. I was reading an article by Joel Hooks in which he contends that nylon strung banjos should have very light, two-footed bridges for best sound projection/enhancement http://www.banjosessions.com/dec08/Hooks.html Have any of you found this to be true? He also says the hard ebony capping on most bridges do not work well for nylon strings, again, your experience? Any bridges you recommend for nylon strung banjos? Does an all-wood compensated bridge available anywhere? Thanks! TC

I have to move it...The "Set Up" forum isn't just for BG pickers.

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Edited by - Banjoman on 06/01/2009 08:58:22

Cathy Moore - Posted - 05/31/2009:  10:03:43

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I've switched from steel to Nylguts on my Stewart. I did see an improvement when I replaced an ebony-topped Grover bridge with an all-maple bridge. The banjo seems to have more volume and "pop." People are surprised when they discover that I'm getting all that volume from nylon strings.

I'm using the "minstrel style" bridge by Bill Morris shown here:
http://elderly.com/accessories/items/BA82T.htm

I originally planned to cut out the inner legs but am happy with the sound so haven't done that.

Edit: I'm also using a Renaissance head. My earlier head was fibreskyn, and while the minstrel bridge was a clear improvement with that head, switching to a Renaissance helped a lot, too.

Cathy
(My YouTube videos and sound files are so far pre-nylon--just steel strings.)

Lessons and subversive clawhammering: http://www.youtube.com/user/BanjoMeetsWorld
Illinois and European tunes and tab: http://www.banjomeetsworld.com

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Edited by - Cathy Moore on 05/31/2009 10:05:30

robertsart - Posted - 05/31/2009:  10:24:04

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cathy Moore


I'm using the "minstrel style" bridge by Bill Morris shown here:
http://elderly.com/accessories/items/BA82T.htm


Cathy

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Cathy-

I was thinking about getting one of these after seeing it on your blog. 3/4 inch seems pretty tall, at least for what I need. I suppose I can simply file it down to the right height...

I'm curious why that is the only size it comes in (?).




Scott Roberts
www.oldgroove.com

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Edited by - robertsart on 05/31/2009 10:35:44

RG - Posted - 05/31/2009:  10:35:26

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BHO's own Bart Veerman makes some great custom bridges for any type banjo, made a very nice compensated bridge for a Morrison that I once had that was strung up with Chris Sand's heavies...Bart makes the bridges to fit the banjo and they sound great...

Cathy Moore - Posted - 05/31/2009:  12:02:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by robertsart
3/4 inch seems pretty tall, at least for what I need. I suppose I can simply file it down to the right height...

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Scott, there's also a 5/8":

http://elderly.com/accessories/items/BA82.htm

The height helps reduce the buzzing I've been getting from my worn-down frets. I'm putting off getting new frets.

Cathy

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 05/31/2009:  13:51:54

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I'd like to try the Morris bridge like Cathy's someday on another banjo, but in the meantime I'm more than happy with the Bart Veerman all mystery wood bridge and Nylgut minstrel string setup on my Saga pony.

Lee Callicutt

dhergert - Posted - 05/31/2009:  14:04:30

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I'm using a 1/2" three-footed bone-insert Grover bridge on my Stewart with nylon strings. I do believe the less tall bridges on these nylon or gut strung banjos sound better than the taller ones.

I also use fishing line strings, and I prefer them slightly slack, they tend to ring better.

Like Cathy says, people are always remarking how loud nylon or gut-strung banjos are. It's pretty surprising.

Best,

-- Don
http://www.youtube.com/user/dh5string
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert


"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

robertsart - Posted - 05/31/2009:  14:38:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cathy Moore

Scott, there's also a 5/8":

http://elderly.com/accessories/items/BA82.htm

The height helps reduce the buzzing I've been getting from my worn-down frets. I'm putting off getting new frets.

Cathy

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Ooops! I missed those. It seems to me I looked a few months ago and only saw the 3/4. I guess I just didn't look hard enough or maybe they didn't have 'em then. Anyway, 5/8 will work just fine. I'm going to give it a try.

Thanks Cathy!





Scott Roberts
www.oldgroove.com

tom clunie - Posted - 05/31/2009:  16:39:20

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Don says,"I also use fishing line strings, and I prefer them slightly slack, they tend to ring better."

I have never heard such before. People talk about using Yellow Saverez and that they feel like steel, meaning stiff. I just put a set of D'Addadrio high tension classical guitar strings on a pony banjo and the strings are quite stiff. I am wondering if the stiffness could be choking some of the tone. Is somewhere between "stiff as steel" and "wet spaghetti" an optimum tension for tone?

Has anyone else noticed that too stiff nylon strings choke the tone/volume? My inquiring mind wants to know....Thanks. TC

brudford - Posted - 05/31/2009:  17:24:06

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Tom ,I read the same article. I have also switched to the Nlyguts and using the orignal hard cap ebony on top of the bridge. I'am Going to make my own two foot bridge and try using pine. He did state in the article that softer wood like pine would be even better,didn't he ?

tom clunie - Posted - 05/31/2009:  22:53:42

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I may have partially answered my own question. I lowered the pitch down from the key of "C" to the key of "A" and the banjo strings were more comfortable for my left and right hand and the banjo did seem to have more ring. So, it seems if you wanted to make the pony banjo an "A" key banjo D'Addario high tension nylons would fit the bill. But I still want a "C" key banjo. Perhaps with the shorter scale neck, string tension/gage is more critical to matching the key you want. I have some La Bella strings which have rightly been accused of being like wet spaghetti strings but perhaps they'll be just right for the pony. Anyone have ideas on how the Chris Sands strings might work in this situation...? TC

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/31/2009:  23:06:32

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I use a 5/8th Grover Compensated on my nylon strung 5 string - the banjo in my avatar. Grover Compensateds are cheap but they only come in 5/8ths nowadays. They are ebony topped and my banjo sounds pretty good with a fairly loose skin head. I have never used a 2 foot bridge so I can't say much about them.

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players, at:
http://www.rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes. - which number around 40 now.

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

prossignol - Posted - 06/04/2009:  06:08:26

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I have found this discussion and Mr. Hooks article to be very interesting. I have been playing on mostly nylon strings for the past year or so because I like the tone and feel. There is some loss of volume compared to steel strings so I have been experimenting with set up to see what I could do. It seems to me that rather than "softness" of the wood of the bridge it could be a function of the mass of the bridge that effects volume. Mr. Hooks bridges are smaller and made of pine or bass wood which is much less dense and would have less mass than a mapel or ebony/mapel bridge. Rodger Siminoff discusses the relationship of string/bridge mass ratios in his book on banjo set up and suggests that the bridge should be not much more than 1/2 the mass of the vibrating area of the strings to achieve maximum energy transfer and sound transmission. Heavier resulting in too much inertia, blocking the energy to vibrate the head and too much lighter allowing the bridge itself to vibrate too much and damping the sound. Nylon is less dense than steel, so it should be a bit of a lighter string, although nylon strings tend to be a larger gauge than steel so Im not sure what the actual reduction in weight is. Nylon strings will also be under less tension than steel strings most of the time (which is why they are popular on some of our old banjos without reinforced necks etc...). So, maybe this is a question of over all mass rather than just density (softer wood)? This weekend I was planning on playing around with some banjo set up and building some bridges out of some different stuff. Maybe I will try and weigh em' and compare the volume....Ill post again with the results..

"....I wish I had that pan full of squirell head gravy..."

deuceswilde - Posted - 06/04/2009:  12:23:45

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How the heck did I miss this discussion?

The easiest way I found to begin expermenting is to take a cheap Grover "non-tip" to a 1" belt sander. Try to end up with something like this...



Old Stewart used maple for his and thought it the best. I have used different woods depending on what I felt the banjo needed. More volume, basswood or pine. Less sharpness, maple.

As prossignol wrote, I think that the question of mass is the key. The tension of nylon is a fraction of wire so the softness of wood is less of an issue.

I have not had a problem with my pine or basswood bridges wearing out, even while using "drum chords" (that's where you slap the strings with your thumb next to the bridge).

Even if they did break, they are simple to make, and cost almost nothing in wood.

I have been thinking about posting a step by step description of how to make them on my website, but I can be a procrastinator. I have also thought about making up a batch to sell (those and "thimbles").

For the historically minded the "old minstrel style bridges with arches" were patented April 11, 1899 and marketed around that time.

http://www.google.com/patents/about...AJ&dq=d30515



-Joel Hooks

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26

tom clunie - Posted - 06/04/2009:  15:50:52

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"How the heck did I miss this discussion?"

Easy - Banjoman moved a stricly CH topic - even after I asked him not to - from the "other" CH forum to sumerge it here in the mostly BG forum.

"The easiest way I found to begin expermenting is to take a cheap Grover "non-tip" to a 1" belt sander. Try to end up with something like this..".

It is interesting in the picture how you have strings 1&5 going at a 45 degree angle which makes the most sense because with being at the widest location on the bridge they have the most tension to slip out of their groove toward the center. On the depth of the groove, luthier Paul Hostetter posted here a few months back that he thought the groove should be only one-half the string diameter for optimum sound transmission, if I am recalling ok.

Is there really a noticeable difference between a three footed vs. a two footer bridge? Would a shallow necked tailpiece like they put on BG banjos put more pressure on the bridge and enhance volume?TC

Prof - Posted - 06/04/2009:  19:31:08

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quote:

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"How the heck did I miss this discussion?"

Easy - Banjoman moved a stricly CH topic - even after I asked him not to - from the "other" CH forum to sumerge it here in the mostly BG forum.

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Sure seems like the correct forum to me -- "Banjo Building, SETUP, and Repair"........

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.
Steve Martin

deuceswilde - Posted - 06/04/2009:  20:20:59

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The cut is from S. S. Stewart's Banjo and Guitar Journal. I guess that was how Stewart made them, though I have not seen one with notches like that in person.

As to the tailpiece, Kershner's patents suggest that he had gut strings in mind when he designed it. I have a 70's ish Japanese masterclone type banjo strung with fishing line that I might put a Kershner on. Right now it has an altered non-tip.

From what I can tell, the center foot was added for wire string support, as was the ebony top for preventing the strings from cutting into the wood. Not problems with nylon.

I don't know about notch depth. I just cut them by eye with files or welding tip cleaners. I cut the fifth string deeper so it does not slip out.

-Joel Hooks

Success always comes to those who have the money to buy it.

-The Adventures of a Banjo Player, 1884 p.26