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beezaboy - Posted - 04/19/2009: 04:51:50
If you want to know anything about banjos just consult BHO 
BANJO HANG-OUT B&D SEVILLE JULY 2008
The Bacon Co. began introducing, what I call, the "S-models" around 1930.
(Highest to lowest model):
...o B&D Symphonie (Silver Bell and No7 Ne Plus Ultra)
...o B&D Sultana (Silver Bell and No7 Ne Plus Ultra)
...o B&D Serenader (Silver Bell)
...o B&D Senorita
...o B&D Seville
In effect, they were all "cost-reduced" models -- designed after the
stock market crash of 1929, for the impending "economic correction."
All (except the Serenader) used pearloid pegheads, fingerboards,
heelcaps, rim-covers, and resonator backs. (Gretsch refrerred to it as
"pearlette".)
Using celluloid was faster/cheaper than filling, sanding, and lacquering
a wooden surface. Engraving the celluloid was faster/easier than cutting
pearl, and inlaying a similar design into maple or ebony:
...o Symphonie -- 12-in Archtop Silver Bell -- Stepped resntr, cataloged grades 1, 3, 4 & 7NPU.
...o Sultana -- Std 11-in Flattop Silver Bell -- Stepped resonator, cataloged grades 1,3, 4 & 7NPU.
...o Serenader -- Econo-Silver Bell -- Wood resonator back/ ebony/pearl fgrbd No1 only
...o Senorita -- Intermediate level -- NON S.B., flat flange
...o Seville -- Entry level -- Student, flat flange
The Senorita and Serenader began life as "private-labeled" models --
made for some large Music Distributors (like Chicago Musical Instruments)
-- and were later produced as B&D models.
During the EARLY-1930s Bacon ALSO cataloged (Highest to lowest model):
...o B&D Montana Silver Bell -- celluloid white -- grades 1,3, 4 & 7NPU.
...o B&D Roy Smeck Silver Bell -- sparkle-oid -- grades 1,3, 4
...o B&D Silver Bell -- Standard Full line -- Grades 1-- 4 & 5NPU -- 9NPU
...o B&D Spec ial -- Intermediate level -- NON S.B., flat flange Wood res. Ebony/Pearl 1, 2, 3
I have almost no info on the Gretsch-made Bacons from the 1940s or
1950s. Until recently, I never had much need to go looking for Gretsch
info from that period.
I have had a copy of the (last) 1970 Gretsch catalog, for a long time.
At that point, they had even dropped the Bacon Belmont. All they list is
(Highest to lowest model):
...o Bacon B&D Ne Plus Ultra #9 (Silver Bell) -- Elephant head
...o Bacon B&D Ne Plus Ultra (Silver Bell) -- Lion head
...o Bacon Symphonie (Silver Bell) 11-inch (Flattop I think...)
...o B&D Serenader (Silver Bell)
...o B&D Senorita
...o Bacon Folk
...o Gretsch Folk
Hope that helps
Best-
Ed Britt
Posted - 01/11/2009 : 14:42:15 BANJO HANG-OUT
I have a Bacon seville and the pot looks identicle. Even the silver paint on the dowel and rim. It's just a simple brass hoop sitting in the rim, like a rb 100. I thought mine was from the fifties but I guess it may be older. I thought they were only worth about $500.
Beezaboy
Bastertone - Posted - 04/19/2009: 08:42:38
I have a seville as well and was thinking of taking advantage of the old wood and fitting the rim with either a tubaphone or a whyte ladie tone ring and making a new neck. The one I have is in good shape but sounds bland.
beezaboy - Posted - 04/19/2009: 08:45:17
Bastertone - Thanks for your post. Is your fretboard pearloid??
Thanks,
Beezaboy
Bastertone - Posted - 04/19/2009: 16:14:26
No, the back and sides of the resonator are and the head stock face is but the fretboard is just as in the craiglist, looks ;ie ebony with simple dots and white binding. Mine just says" Bacon" seville and I think its from the 50's.
Slingerland - Posted - 04/19/2009: 16:21:20
I have some 30s Gretsch catalogs with various B & Ds pictured. I have been meaning to scan them and get them up on here. I will post them here when I dig them out.
jims38134 - Posted - 04/19/2009: 16:25:24
Slingerland,
That would be fantastic.
Jim
Slingerland - Posted - 04/19/2009: 16:28:29
Sorry to get your hopes up, I said 30s, but I think they are later...
beezaboy - Posted - 04/19/2009: 17:51:51
Bastertone - Thank you for the heads-up about the fretboard. Some of Gretsch's Bacons said "B&D" (my Serenader and Senorita) and some said "Bacon" like Thumper5's Belmont. The Craigslist Seville is "B&D" and yours is "Bacon". There appears to be no one who can explain the evolution of Gretsch banjos! If you look at your serial number you might be able to get an approximate date of manufacture by consulting
Polle Flaunoe's database:
http://www.acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bac...atabase.html
Beezaboy
NYCJazz - Posted - 04/20/2009: 04:57:33
That case looks to be a nice zippered Paramount case.
I'm sure you could put that to good use!
Improvisation is the ability to talk to oneself.
~ Cecil Taylor
beezaboy - Posted - 04/20/2009: 10:19:25
Contacted the CraigsList seller of the Seville by email. Very pleasant reply. This banjo is SN 35692 and is marked on the dowel "Made by The Bacon Banjo Company, Groton, Connecticut". So, according to Polle Flanoe's database this would have been a Gretsch made Bacon with Bacon parts. That serial number is quite high so it may have been one of the last "original parts" Bacon banjos. I have been looking for post war Gretsch banjos so this one did not fill the bill but if anyone is interested the owner appears to be very accommodating.
Beezaboy
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 04/21/2009: 21:04:33
Beezaboy --
That Seville the REAL thing.
And every Seville I've documented has a wood fingerboard.
Which contradicts what I had previously written in my 2008 posting --
that Beezaboy re-posted, above. I was mistaken even at at that
point. But I didn't bother to go and check though ALL of my "Seville"
notes -- until replying to THIS topic.
(That's why I answer them -- I learn something new, each time I focus on
a specific model, or feature...)
The engraving machine appears to have been in use BEFORE the
Hurricane. The earliest banjo I've documented, with a machine-
engraved peghead, is a private-labeled "Tatham Special" #32671.
(That's around 1932-33) The machine engraving seems to be used
on several low-cost private-labeled banjos during the 1930s.
So...at #35692, that Seville banjo is now the HIGHEST number I have,
for a banjo with a "Groton Stamp." (And my HIGH "target" has been
around #36000 since 2003...)
After Bacon serial #7000 (approximately when Day shows up)
TWO things become important to me:
1. The Serial is stamped on the side of the dowel -- AND also
. . . on the inside of the rim, near the neck clamp.
2. The "Made by the Bacon Co., Inc, ... Groton, Conn., USA " is
. . . stamped onto the dowel.
If a banjo meets BOTH of those criteria, then -- TO ME -- it is an
honest-to-God "Groton-made" banjo. (Even if the final assembly
was by Gretsch.)
I think the "Groton Stamp" was David Day's "stamp of quality.".
The more I see... the more I believe that Gretsch ONLY assembled
banjos, from fully usable parts...from 1938 to 1940.
I just haven't seen any evidence, yet, of "partially-finished" parts
being finished, and lacquered by Gretsch -- until AFTER 1940.
Yes, there are Gretsch-made banjos -- probably made during the
1940s and '50s -- which utilize some Groton-made parts. But usually,
like all Gretsch-made Bacons:
. . . o They are ONLY stamped on the dowel.
. . . o The rim is NOT stamped,
. . . o The "Groton Stamp" is NOT used.
It's pretty obvious that Gretsch restarted the banjo serials at "1" after
1940.
IMHO... Gretsch-made banjos in the #36000+ serial range -- tend to
show construction and design details which are more consistent with
banjos from the late-1950s or the early-1960s.
Remember that VERY FEW banjos were made during WWII -- by ANY
of the companies... Material rations were in effect. I doubt there were
more than maybe 2000 banjos made by Gretsch -- from 1940 to 1946.
SO... MY personal differentiator for "Groton-made" Bacons is the
presence of:
. . . o Matching serial numbers
. . . o The "Groton Stamp"
I feel these are indicators that the Bacon banjos were assembled under
the supervision of David Day -- even after the Huricane, until 1940.
The soapbox is now vacant -- if anyone else would like to use it... 
Regards,
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 04/24/2009 13:52:51
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/22/2009: 02:27:36
Ed,
I do totally aggree!
Today I´ve revised my database - I´ve moved the Gretsch assembled, but Bacon built B&D/Bacon´s - now they are a part of the "Groton´s".
All "Groton´s" in the database do carry all 3 stamps as mentioned by you - all "Gretsch´s" do not.
Regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 04/22/2009: 07:45:59
Hi Polle --
You and I have both been wrestling with the same "Groton-or-Gretsch?"
problem, for quite some time. Because of our recent interchanges here,
on the BHO -- with this great group of 4-string enthusiasts -- I've been
doing a lot of thinking about it.
This method has a SIMPLE, CLEAR, and CONCISE distinction that we
CAN make -- based on the way those categories of banjos ARE actually
labled.
We can now easily ask our database "informants" -- or somebody selling a
Bacon -- a simple set of questions. (And I'm going to add one more serial
number criteria.):
... 1. Is the Serial Number between approximately #7500 and #36000?
... 2. Does it have matching serial on Dowel and Rim?
... 3. Does it have the "Made by ... Groton" stamp on the dowel?
I do NOT use banjos for determining "key" dates, or feature-changes,
unless I trust the informant -- or have personally seen the serials and
Groton-stamp in-person, or in clear photos.
I also would NOT buy a "premium" Bacon banjo WITHOUT getting
clear photos of the banjo -- INSIDE and OUT -- which INCLUDE those
stampings!
I've added Criteria #1 to the list, because Bacon banjos made
BEFORE David Day arrived, did NOT have the serial stamped on
the RIM -- and did NOT have the "Groton Stamp"
Day arrived at Bacon in Sept of 1922. My guess is, that corresponds
to somewhere between serial #7000 to #7500 -- because of these
key changes, which occurred around that time:
... o HIGHEST-number rim WITHOUT serial: #6998
... o LOWEST-number rim WITH serial: #7096
... o HIGHEST-number dowel WITHOUT "Groton Stamp": #7410
... o LOWEST-number dowel WITH "Groton Stamp": #7510
As we eventually find more information about various feature changes,
or the Groton-to-Gretsch transition -- we can always revise our categories, somewhat.
Again... I want to caution that Bacon parts were swapped, a LOT.
I've seen several instances of obviously 1930s Bacon necks, on
1920s Bacon pots -- and vice-versa. This trick is usually done by
steaming the dowel out of each neck -- and then gluing the dowels
back into the opposite necks.
Neck swapping probably occurred because someone came across
a particularly fancy neck (carved) -- or wanted a particularly good pot
assembly (Silver Bell, engraved). Obviously, they needed to match
the neck to their specific playing style -- tenor. plectrum, or 5-string.
So... they simply swapped the neck they wanted -- onto the rim they
wanted. They made the serial numbers match, by "slipping the dowels"
for each neck -- and then and swapping the necks onto the opposite
dowel. (And then sold-off the "mongrel" banjo, that they didn't want.)
Unfortunately, determining THAT level of "authenticity"is MUCH harder
to do -- and it requires a great deal of experience in "Banjo Forensics".
(And I'm proud to say I've been able to help to re-unite the original
necks, to original rims on about 6 banjos, over the years...)
SIDE NOTE:
Fairbanks and Vega banjos -- AND Vega-made BACONS -- are
relatively easy to identify. for the SAME reasons:
... o. matching serial on the dowel AND on the rim,
... o. the maker's identity on the dowel -- with a stamp or plate.
The earliest Vega-made Bacons are all stamped with Fred's "Hartford"
stamp. Guess who was involved in MAKING those banjos...?
Good ol' Mr. DLD!
Fred's "Hartford Stamp" disappeared, around the time he moved his
studio to Forest Dale, VT. And that marks the start of Bacon's OTHER
"Dead Zone". Bacon banjos become much harder to accurately identify,
and date -- between about 1910 to 1920.
IMHO, there are lot's of 1910 to 1915 Bacon banjos which have been
MIS-attributed to Vega -- and were NOT actually made by Vega, for the
reasons stated above.
Sorting-out those "Forest Dale"-period Bacon banjos, is every bit
as difficult -- as sorting-out the Gretsch-period Bacons.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 04/22/2009 07:56:54
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/22/2009: 08:29:11
Ed,
Once again I do totally aggree regarding the late 30s Bacon´s.
I´ll never again use the term "transitions" when descriebing banjos from these years - like you I´ll descriebe them as "Groton´s", if they have the three stamps present - if not, I´ll descriebe them as "Gretsch´s". No betweens!
I´m 99.9% certain, that the latest Groton´s in my database do have these stamps - I´m also 99.9% certain, that all Gretsch´s in the database do not have these stamps. I´ve seen pics of all these banjos and/or had them descriebed in details.
Regarding the early Pre-Groton´s and Groton´s - I´m soon going to add many detailed descriebed banjos from that period - I´ve recieved many infos from another database last year, but I haven´t had the time to put these into my database.
These will be of special interest to you, I guess. I do also guess, that these new infos will somehow fill out the gap between the SN 2XXX-5XXX in my database.
Kindly regards
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 04/22/2009: 10:59:50
Ed: The conclusion you have drawn for distinguishing Groton/Bacons from Gretsch/Bacons appears to be predicated on the fact that David L. Day supervised the construnction of Bacon banjos at 60 Broadway, Brooklyn, N.Y. for a period of time subsequent to Sept 1938. Can this fact be verified? If so, your theory has validity becasue Gronton banjos would have been constructed under Groton supervision and presumably Groton quality standards. If not, and the post 9/38 Bacon banjos were constructed under the supervision of Gretsch employees under Gretsch quality standards, shouldn't Polle maintain his "transition" terminology to describe this historical episode. Of course, I think that you would know or have reason to believe that Mr. Day was down in Brooklyn setting up the manufacturing process and overseeing quality control, etc. But, from the unititiated, like myself, I note that Mr. Day began his career in Boston, lived in Mass. and while associated with The Bacon Banjo Company worked in Groton, Conn. which was 130 (ca. 1938 no I-95) miles from Groton. Boston is a little closer to Groton. Why did not Mr. Day choose his old employer, Vega, to assemble Bacons. Perhaps, Mr. Gretsch promised close supervision and strict adherance to Bacon specifications allowing Mr. Day time away from his manufacturing duties to see if he could obtain financing and facilities to resurect (sic) The Bacon Banjo Company.
Regards,
Beezaboy
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 04/22/2009: 13:37:35
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Ed: The conclusion you have drawn for distinguishing Groton/
Bacons from Gretsch/Bacons appears to be predicated on the fact
that David L. Day supervised the construnction of Bacon banjos at
60 Broadway, Brooklyn, N.Y. for a period of time subsequent to Sept
1938. Can this fact be verified? If so, your theory has validity becasue
Gronton banjos would have been constructed under Groton supervision
and presumably Groton quality standards. ...
<SNIP>
... Of course, I think that you would know or have reason to believe
that Mr. Day was down in Brooklyn setting up the manufacturing process
and overseeing quality control, etc. ...
Hi Beeze-
Well, unfortunately... you're assuming a bit too much. I never said, or
even implied -- that Day was in Brooklyn. The problem is -- we'd don't
know *exactly* what transpired, after the Hurricane.
David Day WAS Bacon's President, and continued to be -- until the
corporation was dissolved, around 1940. As such, he could enter into
ANY contractual agreement, with ANY company he wanted to.
So... by Day's "supervision" I mean that any banjos "made" by
Gretsch were being done to DAY'S specifications. And ultimately,
for HIS approval.
But all Company records were KNOWN to have been destroyed,
when Bacon went bankrupt. So... we have to guess, and extrapolate,
based on the slim info we do know about Day.
He *probably* DID take the train to NYC -- to meet with Gretsch, and
their production supervisors -- to initially discuss assembly of any
useful parts. But that would NOT require him being there, in-person,
on a daily, or even weekly basis.
(Day was known to travel to NYC a few times a year, for sales calls,
etc. Indeed he usually did an extended sales tour, yearly -- to their
major accounts -- through the East, and Mid-West. He also did travel
to the West Coast, at least once.)
I do know that a later production supervisor, at Gretsch, had mentioned
having some correspondence with Day, during the 1940s, So he was
probably still advising them, even then.
Day also continued in a "Statutory Trustee" capacity, for the dissolved
Corporation until at least 1943 -- when he signed-over the deed, for
the company's land and building. (He was living back in Revere, MA
at that point)
quote:
If not, and the post 9/38 Bacon banjos were constructed under the
supervision of Gretsch employees under Gretsch quality standards,
shouldn't Polle maintain his "transition" terminology to describe this
historical episode.
Again... we DON'T actually know what happened. All we can go on,
for certain -- is analysis of the physical evidence left behind.
I've suggested making a SIMPLE decision: IF the rim and dowel ARE
stamped, and it has the "Groton stamp" -- then let's group it by what we
DO know. (Rather than by what we DON'T know...)
ALL Bacon production banjos, made from Sept 1922 to Sept 1938, meet
that criteria.
WHY should we assume otherwise -- since there is NO hard evidence to
even suggest that banjos with a serial from xxxxx to xxxxx were "transition"
banjos, and were "made" by Gretsch.
YES that IS the Bacon "Folklore". I'm a firm believer that Folklore often
contains a grain of truth. But... like the words to folksongs -- that truth can
often "morph" over time, accidentally.
YES... there will be LOTS of people who bought "transitional" Bacons
who will be pissed at me -- because their banjo might take a value hit.
(That's OK... MOST of those people are ALREADY mad at me -- for
my previous un-diplomatic responses to their banjos...
In the future, IF we DO find some HARD evidence, that serials xxxxx to
xxxxx WERE "transitional" banjos made by Gretsch. Then it's a simple-
enough matter to regroup them.
I've been working on this issue since the early 1980s.... And I feel
confident that I DO finally know enough to *suggest* this approach --
as accepted practice. (I've already been doing it that way, myself, for
several years, anyway.)
quote:
... But, from the unititiated, like myself, I note that Mr. Day began his career in Boston, lived in Mass. and while associated with The Bacon Banjo Company worked in Groton, Conn. which was 130 (ca. 1938 no I-95) miles from Groton. Boston is a little closer to Groton. Why did not Mr. Day choose his old employer, Vega, to assemble Bacons. ...
I think there might a typo in there... (Or else, I'm not "getting" your point.)
It was a BIG DEAL when Day left Vega. The Vega EMPLOYEES gave Day
a gold watch. (Let me know -- if you ever see THAT sucker on Ebay!)
But Vega's owner, Bill Nelson -- who later inherited Vega from his Uncle
and Father -- always had animosity toward Day. He spread several
unsubstantiated rumors that Day had "stolen" certain intellectual property,
when he left..
But.. when Day left Vega, some of their biggest endorsers also jumped-ship
-- out of loyalty to Day.
So Nelson had some valid reasons to be pissed -- and it simply wasn't possible
for Day to go to Vega, at the end. (Vega wasn't doing all that well, themselves,
during the Depression...)
quote:
Perhaps, Mr. Gretsch promised close supervision and strict adherance to Bacon specifications allowing Mr. Day time away from his manufacturing duties to see if he could obtain financing and facilities to resurect (sic) The Bacon Banjo Company.
I doubt those were the "dynamics" of the situation. There's no question that
Gretsch was "helping a colleague in distress". But even in the gutter, Bacon
was STILL considered the best, of the rest -- who were ALSO in the gutter.
Day had already mortgaged the Company property, during the mid-'30s.
I think he knew the "jig was up" -- and was just doing whatever "damage
control" that he could.
Many of his customers were also not going to get their orders -- and they
possibly lost any deposits on them... Bankruptcy is not nice...
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 04/22/2009 13:43:58
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/23/2009: 05:00:32
Jim,
I have seen this Serenader on eBay in the past and included in my database - descriebing the tone ring as an archtop.
Do you have pics of the exterior?
Regarding the "strange" stamps inside the pot - also I have never seen these and their placement before.
Regards
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 04/23/2009: 07:26:14
It has been reported here that The Bacon Banjo Company filed for bankruptcy at or near the time that Gretsch became involved in construction Bacon Banjos. Last nite I signed up for PACER (Public Access to Court Electronic Records), got my password this morning and have queried Conn, Vermont, and Eastern Dist N.Y. looking for a record of the Bacon bankruptcy. The court records that far back probably have not been scanned into the system because I found nothing of record. However, if I had more information perhaps the bankruptcy record can be found along with a report of the trustee concerning just how Gretsch acquired the assets, trademarks and other real, personal, and intellectual property of Bacon Banjo Company.
Beezaboy
jims38134 - Posted - 04/23/2009: 08:43:28
Polle,
This was a banjo on Ebay that I was watching at one point. Here is the Ebay link, hopefully you can still access it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...:RTQ:US:1123
Doesn't look like an arch-top, to me it looks like a standard late SB tone-ring.
John,
I thought the stamped trademarks were interesting as well. Only one I have seen like that.
Jim
TimmyGuitar - Posted - 04/23/2009: 08:58:57
What a wonderful and informative forum this site provides. I'm the seller of the Seville being discussed and really appreciate all the input. http://newhaven.craigslist.org/msg/1126149241.html I've been inspiried to learn more about the Bacon Banjo history, it really is a fasinating bit of American music history.
I totally trust the luthier from whom I purchased the banjo and hate to part with it but have other musical interests I want to pursue. If anyone would like additional info on it please let me. TBorerNHFD@sbcglobal.net
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 04/23/2009: 09:02:30
quote:
Originally posted by jims38134
What sayeth the experts about this?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23066779@N02/?saved=1
Only one I have seen actually stamped as Gretsch, but looks like
real SB tone ring.
Hi Jim-
THOSE banjos with the "Gretsch Product" stamp are a small sub-
group of distinct Gretsch banjos -- that I Have NOT completely
figured-out, yet.
I've only been able to document 2 OTHER examples of them. (Many
people don't take photos of the inside of banjos...) But I also haven't
gone out of my way to find them....
Interestingly, the three which I have serial numbers for (including yours)
are:
... o. #40297 B&D Rajah Silver Bell Mandolin-banjo
... o. #40312 B&D Serenader Silver Bell
... o. #40332 B&D Serenader Silver Bell
Even for such a small "random sample" -- it's VERY ODD that they
are ALL Silver Bells, within ONLY 35 numbers of each other.
They are also the ONLY ones I've tracked with 40xxx serials....
(But I haven't really been paying close attention to Bacons for the
last few years.)
They seem to be of higher quality than most Gretsch-made banjos.
All three are flathead Silver Bells, and have their rims capped. Two
have hex-head shoe-bolts -- a typical feature of the Silver Bells. But
the MB has slotted round-head shoe-bolts.
I'm impressed with the quality-level AND with the fact that they
seem to be the ONLY Gretsch examples which have:
... o. matching serial numbers on dowel AND RIM
... o. a well-designed "Makers Stamp" on the dowel.
Not only that... but the serial numbers are very carefully aligned, and
neatly stamped, A LOT of care was taken making, and marking, these
banjos!
Two have OLD style neck clamps, typical of Groton-made banjos.
One has a cast clamp, and one has the heavy-duty formed-and-bent
clamp (typical of the 1930s Bacons). They DON'T have the cheap
square bent-sheetmetal clamp -- seen on MOST Gretsch-made
banjos.
So... the "knee-jerk" reaction is to claim that these "Gretsch Product"
banjos are the "Long-Lost Tribe of the Groton-Gretsch Transistion."
And I've pondered that possibility, myself -- for quite some time,.
But I want to call attention to acouple subtle aspects of the
"Gretsch Product" stamp. The use of the fancy line:
. . . "BACON .
B&D. BANJO"
Followed by the line:
. . . . . . "TRADE MARK REG"
So... WHEN, exactly, did Gretsch REGISTER the trade marks:
"Bacon" and B&D?
Gretsch simply "assumed" the RIGHTS to those trademarks -- when
they bought-out the remnants of Bacon, in 1940.
And Gretsch DID "renew" the REGISTRATION for the "Silver Bell"
trademark, on Jan, 15, 1944. (It was later "republished," on 7/19/49,
as part of a congressional act updating US trademark laws.)
But... apparently, Gretsch NEVER had the registration re-assigned
for the "Bacon" or "B&D" trademarks....
However... in 1967 Gretsch suddenly re-files for the registration of
both "Bacon" and "B&D."
WHY would Gretsch do that -- after so long a period? Because
Baldwin BOUGHT Gretsch during that period.
Also serial #40xxx -- by the common Gretsch serial wisdom --
would place production in the early-to-mid-60s.
I think the "Gretsch Product" stamp only existed for a VERY brief
time (probably less than a year) during THAT transition to Baldwin.
Probably, there were very few "Gretsch Product" banjos ever made.
Warning -- Hare-brained Theory to Follow: :
Those "Gretsch Product" banjos *MIGHT* have even been specially-
made as "sales prototypes" -- to show the Bacon product line to
Baldwin -- while the sale negotiations were underway.
(Chuck Ogsbury did a similar small set of specially-made prototype
ODE banjos -- with the "BALDWIN" banner in the peghead -- as
part of the ODE/Baldwin sale negotiations, in mid-1966...)
Whatever they are -- those "Gretsch Product" banjos ARE a very
small sub-group, which we should probably track separately. At
least until we better understanding of their proper place in the
Gretsch time line.
Once Baldwin acquired Gretsch (and the Bacon Line) -- I believe
they quickly instituted the change to a new CODED serial numbering
scheme.
That serial format would be:
. . . "USA -- mmynnnn"
(or "mynn" "mynnn" depending on month, and production number.)
where the digits represent:
. . . m -- month
. . . y -- year
. . . n -- production number
But even that scheme would only last from 1967 until about 1970,
when Baldwin moved ALL Gretsch production to Arkansas --
and the Bacon line was finally DISCONTINUED.
At that point, the Baldwin-ODEs became company's banjo line.
And the Gretsch Division was placed in charge of producing
the Baldwin-ODEs -- which they did, until Baldwin's bankruptcy,
in 1980.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 04/23/2009 09:18:28
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 04/23/2009: 09:33:52
quote:
Originally posted by jims38134
This was a banjo on Ebay that I was watching at one point.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...30287924981&
Thanks for the link, Jim!
Is that #40332 -- the B&D Serenader marked "Gretsch Product"??
It's also intriquing that it has ODE planets on the peghead...
(Ogsbury & Co were the first to reproduce the 1920s Ludwig Planet
peg -- in 1965. Which meant that BALDWIN owned production of
those planets, by 1966.)
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 04/23/2009 09:39:33
jims38134 - Posted - 04/23/2009: 17:50:40
Ed,
Unfortunately the banjo is not mine, I was outbid because I missed the end of the auction. Your posts are very informative. Does the apparent rosewood fingerboard point it to being a 60s banjo as well? I thought the earlier were ebony.
Jim
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 04/23/2009: 19:24:18
quote:
Originally posted by jims38134
... Does the apparent rosewood fingerboard point it to being a 60s
banjo as well? I thought the earlier were ebony...
Hi Jim --
Yes, good point -- I hadn't noticed it had a rosewood board.
(The photos were quite small...)
But more importantly... while the peghead perimeter is similar --
the engraving is different. Most of the Groton-made Serenaders
were fairly consistent with their peghead engraving pattern.
(I'm not sure about the engraving on the earliest Serenaders...)
Rephrasing my question, in a different form:
Was the Ebay Serenader -- serial #40332?
(Since the interior photos, that you linked to -- with the "Gretsch
Product" stamp -- were NOT shown on the ebay auction page.)
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 04/23/2009 19:25:52
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/23/2009: 23:00:15
Jim,
Mysterious - I didn´t see it at the eBay auction in february this year.
It must have been up for auction some years ago - at that time I included it in the database - as an archtop.
The big question is - has someone in the meantime replaced the archtop with a flattop tone ring? I´ve seen this done before.
An indication for a replacement can be, that the gap between the inner lip and the rim seems almost non-existent. On a prewar the gap is appr. 2.5 mm.
I really can´t tell without an inspection.
What do you think, Ed?
Regards
Polle
jims38134 - Posted - 04/24/2009: 03:47:39
Ed,
Yes the pics are of the same banjo, sn 40332. I asked the seller for the additional pics to assess its age/value (to me).
Polle, yes, no telling what someone may have done to it...
Jim
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 04/24/2009: 07:12:09
Hi Polle-
As I pointed-out -- ALL THREE of the "Gretsch Product" Silver
Bells, I've documented, have flattop tone rings. The fitting of the
rings looks similar on all three of them.
You are correct... The 1930s Silver Bell design did have an
intentional gap -- between the inner lip and the rim.
Perhaps, by the 1960s, the "reason" for that gap had been
forgotten. After all, Gibson flatheads didn't have gaps! (Because
the Gibson flathead was probably an "interpretation" of the 1920s
Silver Bell tone ring...)
I know that Gretsch made a lot of archtops. But there seemed to
be much more general interest in archtops, during the early 1960s.
Gibson was ONLY offering archtops. They hadn't re-introduced
their flatheads at that point. And most of the available vintage
Gibsons were also archtops. (The flatheads were too rare!)
Maybe Gretsch/Baldwin saw a potential market opening for
flattop banjos. Perhaps those "Gretsch Product" Silver Bells
were "marketing prototypes" -- made for that year's NAMM
show -- to gauge dealer interest.
(Over the years, I've helped Chuck Ogsbury develop several
"market prototypes" -- to show at NAMM, FIGA, or other big
festivals. Sometimes they go into production... Sometimes they
just become "rare experimental oddities"...)
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 04/24/2009 07:19:05
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/24/2009: 10:15:47
Ed,
Even more mysterious - I´m getting more and more sure, that Gretsch manufactored banjos with identical SN´s - f.ex. in the 40XXX range - belonging to different sequences.
Take a look at my database - I have the following banjos in this range included:
40297 B&D Rajah - a MB without a tone ring - reported by Elderly
40312 Bacon Belmont - without a tone ring - reported by Elderly
40315 B&D Rajah - without a tone ring - reported by Mike Gilfeather
40318 B&D Serenader SB - a MB with an archtop - reported by Elderly
40332 B&D Serenader SB - a TB with an archtop - seen by me at eBay
There can maybe be failors in the Elderly reports - though I doubt this - all reports recieved from Stan Werbin are very detailed and precise.
And now comes 3 banjos from your records plus Jim´s pics:
40297 B&D Rajah SB - a MB with a flattop
40312 B&D Serenader SB - with a flattop
40332 B&D Serenader SB - with a flattop
Maybe your remark about extra fine prototypes is correct - I can´t tell - I can only tell, that there´s something rotten in the state of ????.
This weekend I´ll try opening my huge archive of old reports in order to find possible failors.
At the same time I´ll try finding the earlier mentioned database containing a lot of Pre-Groton´s and early Groton´s. This will be interesting for you, I think.
Do have a nice weekend - all of you banjo freaks - the spring weather in Denmark is fantastic this year - I´ll try enjoying it in betweens.
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 04/24/2009: 13:38:59
Hi --
This discussion of Gretsch Serial numbers has become far-removed
from the original "B&D Seville" Topic.
So... I've started a NEW TOPIC, to continue our discussion of
Gretsch-made Bacons serial numbers -- called (surprisingly...):
"Gretsch-made Bacons -- serial numbers"
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=146289
Please join us, if interested.
Or... return to the originally-scheduled "B&D Seville" topic --
already in progress...
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
