Grey Dog - Posted - 03/22/2009:  18:38:53

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Hi All,

I'm currently in the market for a 'Woody' (wooden tone ring, or ringless if you prefer) banjo. I like the deeper and darker sound that they pour out.

I have found the following:
Deering Hartford
Recording King R-50 Melody King
Turtle Hill Bluegrass Woody
Hopkins Woodie
Wildwood banjo (no specific name, probably custom)
Fitch Palomino

Have I missed any?
Does anyone have one and want to throw their two cents worth in?
Does anyone just want to throw their two cents in anyway??

Thanks,

- gerlach

][ Grey Dog in NH

omiimii - Posted - 03/22/2009:  18:49:34

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i'm pretty sure romero banjos make these.

dpete210 - Posted - 03/22/2009:  19:20:36

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You can get a Nechville banjo with a wooden tone ring or get one to replace the metal ring it came with. There is some mention of a wooden ring in this recent thread: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=128185

Any day playing music is a GOOD day.

David Ward - Posted - 03/22/2009:  19:59:35

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Hello,check out the Bishline Danny Barns model. There is some stuff on the internet with Danny Barnes playing his. Good footage.

"Blue Country Bluegrass"(Best of both worlds)

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/22/2009:  20:48:20

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If you want a darker tone, go for the Hartford or another flathead ring. The Turtle Hill and Fitch Palomino are, I believe, archtops.

Bill

dneal - Posted - 03/22/2009:  21:31:45

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It will be interesting to find out waht you learn and then decide to purchase. I've been watching for a while and I think Cliff Fitch just redesigned the woody tone ring (made by Tony Pass) and Tony Pass hads a new design the he describes as almots a flathead, but I'm not clear on which banjos the new rings wil be offered. I think they will be on the Turtle Hill woodys. It would also be interesting to compair the two (if I'm correct that they are two different designs). The Bishline model also looks interesting, the "Danny Barns" has a shorter scale, but it looks like you could customize any of his banjos with the wooden tone ring. Theres been alot of developement just recently.

David

fitch5string - Posted - 03/22/2009:  22:23:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

If you want a darker tone, go for the Hartford or another flathead ring. The Turtle Hill and Fitch Palomino are, I believe, archtops.

Bill

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Bill, my Palomino use to be an archtop but, I changed to a flathead when Tony Pass and I developed the Nitro-Pass Woody rim.

FITCH BANJOS
www.FitchBanjos.com
Hand-Crafted Professional Banjos
Banjo Repair-Setup-Restoration
Authorized Recording King Dealer

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/22/2009:  23:03:38

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Thanks Cliff; that sounds really interesting.

Bill

goldtopia - Posted - 03/23/2009:  00:09:13

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Woodies (banjos without metal tone rings) are becoming more popular as more people want lighter banjos and some people just like the sound. Most of the best woodies have Tony Pass thin skirt http://www.tonypassbanjorims.com/ Tony Pass rims are a very good alternative for not having a heavy metal tone ring being able to maintain tone and volume without the characteristic metallic sound of metal tone rings (which some people may prefer). There are only two from the various choices of light banjos that I would buy. The Fitch Palomino or the Nechville Athena. The Nechville is unique in its construction, it weighs 6 lbs but is rather expensive. The Fitch Palomino is a work of art, it weighs 8 lbs and each is made to order. At the moment I have a Gold Tones OB250 LW which weighs fractionally under 10 lbs and does not have a Tony Pass thin skirt, it has its own unique design. It has good tone but not as good as the Tony Pass and lacks a little in volume, but is much cheaper than the others and is very good value. http://www.goldtone.com/products/de...-Blossom-250
I will be selling my Gold Tone OB250 LW later in the year and buying a Fitch Palomino to replace it, which is being built over the next two or three months.



Bill.O

Ks_5-picker - Posted - 03/23/2009:  02:09:56

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I've got a Dan Pennington cherry rim with cocabolo archtop in my '67 Vega. I know it's not a production model,but I believe he'll build you one. You can have a Helix wood ring as well.

Rod

http://banjolounge.ivocalize.net/.

videos of my daughters band
New videos added May 08

Our new band page:
http://www.myspace.com/noxieridge

goldtopia - Posted - 03/23/2009:  02:48:56

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I forget to mention the Titan Banjo www.titanbanjos.com/ Its not a woody but its very light and has excellent tone and volume.

Bill.O

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/23/2009:  11:17:40

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Bill.O wrote: "Most of the best woodies have Tony Pass thin skirt" ... That's may well be true of bluegrass banjos, but there are far too many openback woodies of a great variety of configurations to make it a blanket statement for all banjos.



Bill

BJ Saalfeld - Posted - 03/23/2009:  11:47:09

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You can pretty well take any banjo these days and put a wood tone ring in it. I've done this on several banjos now and it has turned out well.
I love the sound the wood tone ring makes and the weight of the other tone ring is a factor for me. My choices have turned out well and I
always do this business with First Quality, Bill on my first banjo and Eric on the second. Eric did a great job making my last wood tone ring
for my Sullivan Festival. It turned out well and sounds beautiful in this banjo. He can meausre the banjo to specs and make the tone ring
to fit it. Give him a call on one of his banjos like the Sullivan Festival. You can't beat this banjo. It's well built, sounds beautiful, and has
the Sullivan warranty.

BJ

Keep on Picking!

Grey Dog - Posted - 03/23/2009:  13:17:41

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Excellent!
Thank for all the input.

I got a chart of the following:

Wildwood Artist
Hopkins Woodie
Nechville Athena
Deering Hartford PopOff
Deering Hartford
Deering ?????, with Hartford custom ring added
R-King RK-50 Melody King
R-King RK-50 Melody King w/ Nitro/Fitch ring
Fitch Palomino – Nitro/Fitch ring
Romero (Custom)
Turtle Hill Woody
Bishline Danny Barnes



....now it's time to start whittlin' down by detail.

Again, Thanks!!
The input in this forum almost doubled the amount of banjos that I saw out there in banjo heaven.


][ Grey Dog in NH

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Edited by - Grey Dog on 03/23/2009 13:18:10

1four5 - Posted - 03/23/2009:  14:11:25

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Deering's Vega Bluegrass Wonder is an all woody

Dean

larry p - Posted - 03/23/2009:  14:38:48

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Howdy-
I know this is going to sound like a sales pitch seeing as how I'm a Music Link Dealer; I REALLY don't mean it that way!!
I've had several of the Recording King R-50 Melody Kings, and every one of them have been WAY above average for a banjo without a tone ring..I've had several thin rimmed RB-00's that wouldn't touch one of these in the tone and volume department in my opinion.I've been blessed beyond words that Jamie Hartford has allowed me the pleasure of keeping one of his dad's banjos around. I bought the first of many I've had at the IBMA a couple of years ago in case he ever needed or wanted that banjo back. Sometimes a 'Mastertone' style banjo can be a bit much to handle with a back condition..I got it home, set it out on a stand in the living room-and the first person to come by and play it wouldn't leave without it. I've had several since then that have left in a similar fashion. Everybody that picks one up is amazed at the banjo, especially in the volume department..
I don't know what the deal is that makes these banjos so good-can't recommend it highly enough. Same goes for the 'Deco' Kings..I'm sure there are many other great banjos at this price point-if you're in the market for one this is surely one to consider.

Larry Perkins
www.larryperkins.net

Grey Dog - Posted - 03/23/2009:  14:40:29

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sales pitch or no sales pitch. I like info. :-)
and thanks Dean, that one got right by my radar....

Thanks!

][ Grey Dog in NH

dneal - Posted - 03/23/2009:  21:53:55

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Grey Dog, if you have the time keep us posted on the insturments you feel are the 'best of class"

David

larry p - Posted - 03/23/2009:  22:43:44

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I don't have any experience with the Wildwood banjos, but I'd bet any of the other ones you mentioned are great as well. The banjo I have borrowed from Jamie is one of his dads 'Deering' banjos with a wood tone ring, and I love it. We used it on John's last couple of albums. I've never seen one of the 'Turtle Hill Bluegrass Woody' banjos, but I bet there great. I KNOW anything that Paul Hopkins or Cliff Fitch has a hand in is top shelf all the way.

Larry Perkins
www.larryperkins.net

goldtopia - Posted - 03/24/2009:  03:53:46

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Bill Rogers reply is right, I should have mentioned open backs which most (if not all) don't have tony pass rims.

Bill.O

Grey Dog - Posted - 03/24/2009:  17:40:37

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Sure thing dneal, currently waist-deep in research and tweaks but I will definitely put up a 'conclusion' type of email.

...and there is a gorgeous Hopkins at Elderly that is on the radar, nice to know it is top shelf. I've never played one before.

][ Grey Dog in NH

The Specialist - Posted - 03/25/2009:  02:37:25

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I also use Tony's woody in my Legends on request.
Best,
Kyle K

www.banjosetupspecialist.com

"Banjos electronically voiced to your taste in tone and timbre."

bnjoplr - Posted - 03/25/2009:  03:15:28

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The Turtle Hill Bluegrass Woody is available in either an archtop or flathed model.

Bobbi
Windy Strings
Gotoh Tuning Machines, Banjo Instructional Materials, and Accessories
Bluegrass and Clawhammer banjo taught in Northern Virginia
www.windystrings.com

Grey Dog - Posted - 03/25/2009:  17:04:30

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I'm an engineer, so I can never resist making charts, graphs, and all forms of useless banter to support a decision, but here's where I am so far:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~smg6/pdf/NextBanjo.html

It looks fairly convincing that the Deering Hartford is definitely in the lead, with a Nechville Athena in second.
The Hopkins Woodie is lingering at third in case I suffer a huge box of cash arriving at my door.

][ Grey Dog in NH

fitch5string - Posted - 03/25/2009:  17:33:18

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The Palomino is $2600.00 if you want to add the price to your chart. All of my prices are listed on my website.

FITCH BANJOS
www.FitchBanjos.com
Hand-Crafted Professional Banjos
Banjo Repair-Setup-Restoration
Authorized Recording King Dealer

Grey Dog - Posted - 03/25/2009:  17:36:19

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Thanks,

I wasn't sure about the whole flat-top/archtop difference, along with a few others. I didn't want to put out anything incorrect, so I simply left it blank out of safety. I'll fix it in the next revision.

][ Grey Dog in NH

jbanjoist - Posted - 03/25/2009:  18:30:44

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Hey Dog make sure Nechville gets it's share of pros for all the advances in setup ease Tom has designed into them.

Jbanjoist
I''m a NECHVILLIAN!

EDUMACATE YOSEF!

What do you WANT to believe?

God knows my every thought, my every fear, my every happiness, and my every hope,
and forgives me all my many shortcomings.
I''d be an utter fool to make fun of God.

Hello, hello, hello
Is there anybody in there?
Just nod if you can hear me.
Is there anyone at home?
Pink Floyd, Comfortably Numb.

Grey Dog - Posted - 03/25/2009:  18:36:39

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I just sent Tom a note asking for more info....

I have no idea what the helimount thing is all about yet. Still researchin'.
The main problem: I am in NH and I don't think that there is a Nechville banjo anywhere near here for me to check out. :-(

][ Grey Dog in NH

jbanjoist - Posted - 03/25/2009:  19:16:19

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yeah that's a pain. I got my first Nechville sight unseen from a HO member. Never looked back to the traditional design.

I think Tom has a u tube video explaining how the helimount works.

Anyway the advantages are, perfectly even head tension, no coordinator rods, you can change the head or tone ring without taking the neck off or even the strings for that matter.
The action adjustment has a range that can enable you to try most any height bridge from 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch.

The necks themselves are super playable, a tad wider, super thin, nice jumbo frets that seem to wear forever.

Good luck with your research.

Jbanjoist
I''m a NECHVILLIAN!

EDUMACATE YOSEF!

What do you WANT to believe?

God knows my every thought, my every fear, my every happiness, and my every hope,
and forgives me all my many shortcomings.
I''d be an utter fool to make fun of God.

Hello, hello, hello
Is there anybody in there?
Just nod if you can hear me.
Is there anyone at home?
Pink Floyd, Comfortably Numb.

Grey Dog - Posted - 03/30/2009:  13:09:45

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Thank you all for joining me on this short little ride of Woody banjos.....

Being the picky @&$*@ that I am, I found a fatal flaw in all listed banjos. Some were physical traits (I really didn't like the satiny finish on the Deering Hartford, once I got to physically play one. Which reinforces my urge to hold it before I buy it), some weren't available in my preferred combination (walnut, wood ring, ebony, etc), and some others were amazingly awesome but I couldn't find a feasible way to get my hands on one (Fitch, Nechville, Hopkins). But if I am going to drop a decent dime on a banjo, I don't really want to start off with a risk or by compromising.

Huber taught me (not personally) that I need to hold the banjo first: His banjos are top-notch, but they don't match me all that well. Not sure if it's a playing style, attack, my tonal expectations, or a combination of any and all of those.

In better news: I discovered a few makers that were not on my radar prior to this experiment. For example, Cliff Fitch seems to be a great guy with some really sweet banjos. I hope to find myself in his neighborhood sometime. Bishline also won some marks in terms of quality, along with Cox.


Conclusion:
I may just get a 'kicker' wooden ringed banjo: The RK-50, probably from Fitch.
Otherwise, I may alter my target completely: A mahogany banjo (with a real tone ring) from either Fitch or Cox.

So many choices....



Thanks for all the input!!



][ Grey Dog in NH

Grey Dog - Posted - 04/07/2009:  04:26:53

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Nechville and WildWood were also very noteworthy....



][ Grey Dog in NH

rhagen - Posted - 04/07/2009:  04:40:21

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Mike Ramsey makes a woody that you can add to your list:

http://www.ramseybanjos.com/Woody.html

Grey Dog - Posted - 04/07/2009:  05:03:00

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Lookin' for a non-openback, but thanks.

Those banjos still look nice.

][ Grey Dog in NH

PaulKirby - Posted - 04/07/2009:  05:23:39

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I would love to hear a soundfile of a Palomino. Anybody know where I can hear one? Cliff?

http://www.kateyzbb.com/
http://www.americanmadebanjo.com/

Nobody cares if you can''t dance well. Just get up and dance. Great dancers are not great because of their technique, they are great because of their passion.
--Martha Graham

Helix - Posted - 04/07/2009:  06:20:17

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I have made both flathead and archtop woodies. I present an advantage in the use of hybrids, alternating blocks of voice.

Remember what type of rim is made into a woodie, what does the rim do now that there is no brass vibrating above it. Is the Woodie a wooden version of a Gibson Mastertone??????? That's not very inventive, not actually going into new territory, but making it look like something else.

Notice there is some difference in design and opinion about the woodies. That's because none of the makers until now have given much thought to it as something to offer.

All the makers from the early days knew about the limits of woodies, that's why the explosion in big bronze tone rings, everybody went looking for something. Like you.

Here's the best part: don't sacrifice volume (loudess) for lightweight.

Now, Grey Dog, the mighty, what and where do you play, do you stand up to play. When using a PA a person can always hug the mike.

Also SNAP = attack
POP = decay
CRACKLE = sustain

How much of each quality do you want, need, desire, dream of?

Also what wood voice do you want in a resonator? You can build mid-range into a Helix rim, and compliment your mix with the right resonator. I'm using Mahogany on Curly Maple right now, which produces a smoother 'BITE.' My bluegrass flathead uses a Black Walnut rim with a Maple resonator, fun huh? I don't PLAY woodies for a reason. So I would be able to comment on archtop and flathead woodies and their properties and how they sync up with your specs. THEN ask how much they weigh, Why am I alone in publishing the weight. How is the banjo shipped???????????Customer Service, Follow up, Return Policy, are you buying a banjo without a setup??????????Bad news.

Chris Collier and Adam Tracksler both produced resonators with rare earth magnets last year. I use them on my 'convertible', an openback with a resonator. The magnets don't vibrate, don't interfere with pickups, and are way too simple for lost vintage hardware. It's a perfect solution to using a clip-on, "top down in a hardtop world."

Go over your banjo with another magnet and "TELL" yourself what parts are magnetic. You'll be surprised about the mix and match of brass and steel, both nickel-plated.

For small money you can get NEW unplated brass hardware from a North American supplier with an American distributor 1/4" thread with 5/16" nuts, very authentic.

What is your target weight??

What wood would you like in the Rim? Resonator? Neck? Not one person above asked you that, they just asked for your loyalty and money, humble opinions, and respect.

And just for the fun of it, I would lean towards someone who plays what they build. The money team wants your money, I want your music. I think what I wrote here has a better perspective for you in your private quest.

Please peruse the thread on the Chestnut banjo by Moparcolt. A Helix neck might be in your future. Thanks for the opportunity to present what I can do for you.

(_)====''===::}

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Edited by - Helix on 04/07/2009 09:20:01

schaumannk - Posted - 04/07/2009:  08:32:19

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Have you checked with OME? Maybe they can adapt thier Juniper model (usually with a tone ring) to a woody. They use a wooden tonerim for the jubilee, they may be able to mix and match to make what you want.

Helix - Posted - 04/07/2009:  09:14:38

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By the way, I saw an OME Grubstake last year, Cherry flathead woody, one tasteful abalone inlay at the 5th fret. I am of the thought and experience that Ome and Proto ODE, and ODE have made the finest necks all along. How many are still being played??

(_)====''===::}

Grey Dog - Posted - 04/07/2009:  13:06:08

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I do have an email in to Tanya at Ome, but I haven't heard back yet

][ Grey Dog in NH

Grey Dog - Posted - 04/07/2009:  13:06:37

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Helix....Lots o' questions there,

I'll probably reply in a PM to ya.
Thanks!

][ Grey Dog in NH

1935tb-11 - Posted - 04/07/2009:  16:45:26

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gibson made one for craig smith but i dont know if its
a 1 of or not. it could have been something he ordered.

terry m
n.c.

4 longs and 1 short=banjer ring

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Edited by - 1935tb-11 on 04/07/2009 16:48:16

mdenny4 - Posted - 04/07/2009:  18:35:32

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Terry, are you talking about his no-tone ring granada, or has he gotten something since i've last seen him?

That a boy, Luther!

1935tb-11 - Posted - 04/08/2009:  03:21:35

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yeah thats the one, i heard he had a granada style without a
ring in it. i figured he being who he was he just ask gibson to build him one.


terry m

4 longs and 1 short=banjer ring

Viktor Velthuijs - Posted - 04/09/2009:  13:28:30

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Hi there! I believe this is my first post ever here...

I guess it should first of all be noted that I mostly play classical music on my 5 string(s). Bach, Beethoven, Scarlatti... I also play the (classical) Spanish guitar, the piano (all mostly if not soley classical music) and a little bit of resophonic guitar/dobro (trying to get classical stuff to work on it). Therefor, my opinion about "sound" may be different than yours, not to your liking if you specifically look for a "bluegrass" type of sound. I am also an audio engineer (a mastering engineer specifically, but I also record and mix). I would say I have above excellent ears, they are well trained and I have a reach of above 22khz (most people get born with a reach of 20khz, which you can chop off 1khz per 10 years - bluntly).

I own a Deering Hartford (with Grenadillo tone ring) recently sold to me by Janet Davis and I also own a Deering Sierra (with -06- 20 hole bronze tone ring). In my humble opinion, the Hartford completely destroys the Sierra in terms of "sound". It has slightly less output (volume, as a word, has nothing to do with sound by the way ;-)) but it is deeper, much more singy, has a rounder, clearer sound and has a much greater dynamic range (which actually gives the impression there is a bigger output over the course of a piece of music). I do not like the loud output of the Sierra in the first place (after all, if you play mostly solo, or in an acoustic setup, why would you want it that loud?), and I find it missing character/expression and its sound is too blocky (if that makes any sense). Don't get me wrong, the Hartford is not that much less loud compared to the Sierra - it just has a much greater dynamic range. Hope this helps!

Cheers! :o)

---

Edited by - Viktor Velthuijs on 04/09/2009 13:30:46

Grey Dog - Posted - 04/10/2009:  04:03:09

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Nice post, Viktor.

What kind of head do you have on it, if I may ask??
Same as the Sierra?

][ Grey Dog in NH

Viktor Velthuijs - Posted - 04/10/2009:  14:46:17

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Hey there Grey Dog and thanks.

The head on the Hartford is a frosted Deering one, I can't seem to remember what it's dialed at though (either close to Béla's Gibson - F# - or Krüger's Deering Signature w/bronze tone ring - slightly above G - as used throughout The Suite - and especially Premonitions I-IV) --- if I remember correctly. It has a Snuffy Smith Bridge. Strings are the same Jens used throughout The Suite, D'Addario 11-12-13-22-11. The banjo and its setup were intended for playing classical music and as a crossing between Béla's warm, thick, full (and I'd also say romantic) sound as on Perpetual Motion (but sometimes muddy, and with a very weak dynamic range) and Krüger's thinner but purer, more balanced (and more "European" for a lack of a better word) with a much bigger dynamic range as on specifically Preminitions I-IV. Here are some quotes from Janet about the banjo and its setup: "The first string, especially, (treble D) has beautiful voicing that actually reminds me of the sound I hear from many of Bela's recordings." - "I played a lot of different types of music, from UFO TOFO, to Fireball Mail to Nola. This response is very expressive and it responds well to whatever type of music I played."

Cheers! :o)

prewartb3 - Posted - 04/11/2009:  03:34:17

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Don't skip by the same style banjo Earl used in 1946 with Bill Monroe. The Kel Kroydon KK46 model has the sound your looking for. At times it is hard to tell these banjos do not have a full flathead tone ring. Listen to Earls old recordings and get an idea of the sound of these banjos. You will be amazed.

PrewarTB3

pick1936 - Posted - 04/11/2009:  07:46:34

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I think the best for the money, Is the Nechville Wood Tone Ring, Mine has all the the sounds, Knock,, Pop,, Ring,, Zing,, and all others sounds I like, Most people who hear it, think It has a bronze Ring, and only weighs 7 lbs. It would be hard to beat this banjo, Compound Radiused Neck,, and Finger board,, Wider neck,, Bigger frets,, Compensated, and Radiused bridge,, Fully adjustable Tail piece,, fast neck angle adjust of neck, Use any bridge,, from 1/2 inch to 3/4 or even an inch,, and with low string action,, Board radius 7 to 12,, Neck From back of peg head, V shape to the 5 th fret,, then goes to a C shape on down, it is SO much easy to get chords, and bar chords on this neck, even with arthritis, Its just the best neck I ever owned, The best banjo I ever owned,, So many other things, but I have to get off now,, Wait, It also will stay in tune.. Udate, My wood ringed Calssic Deluxe is sounding sweeter all the time, The wood is aging a little, like a guitar top, The more You pick it , better the sound, If a picker can only afford just one banjo (It should Be a Nechville)




Nechville. In Higginsville.
pick the banjer son.

Lee Kelso

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Edited by - pick1936 on 04/13/2009 08:24:47

The Bard Rocks - Posted - 04/13/2009:  09:51:11

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I have a very old Weymann with no tone ring. But it sounds as if it has one. Many people who are far better than I am on the banjo have made this observation, the point being that lack of a tone ring does not necessarily give you a darker sound.

Roland, "The Bard Rocks"

The Bard Rocks, traditional eclectica

pick1936 - Posted - 04/13/2009:  19:03:31

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Right, No need to pack around all that Weight, when A wood tone ringed Nechville sounds SOO Good, and weighs 7 Lbs. or less, No one will know it has a wood ring, unless You tell them, Just GREAT Banjo's.



Nechville. In Higginsville.
pick the banjer son.

Lee Kelso

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Edited by - pick1936 on 04/13/2009 19:04:27