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beezaboy - Posted - 03/13/2009: 16:21:10
Hello Bacon & Day fans:
Talked to a store proprietor today about a 1931 B&D Symphonie Silver Bell tenor in stock. It had been traded to the store by its former owner to purchase a 1928 B&D Silver Bell #1 also in stock. This Symphonie owner was delighted to trade for the 1928 model because the '28 model "sounded like a B&D should sound!" BTW this older fellow could really play the tenor but his gleeful statement implied that the 1931 Symphonie was somehow lacking in that "B&D sound". What do you think? Is there a difference in the sound between the 1931 B&D new line and the pre-'31 Silver Bells??
Beezaboy
Lono - Posted - 03/13/2009: 17:01:32
The Symphonie Silver Bell had an "archtop" style tone ring.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/13/2009: 19:29:34
Lono's unspoken point is that the difference is the "Sypmhonie" SB. It's not one of the standard SB tone rings at all. So it does sound different. But most later Silver Bells are not Symphonies. And their sound remained similar. but B & D did change the standard SB ring too--from the ones that were holed on the inside (similar to the tubaphone and mastertone) to a no-hole ring that was about a 32d above the rim on the inside edge. Ome has copied both styles in its Silverspun rings. But my favorite one is the earliest--perforated with holes all the way through and found on the Super and Blue Ribbon banjos as well as some of the earliest Siver Bells.
Bill
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/14/2009: 00:43:12
Yes- there´s a great difference between the sounds of a classic Silver Bell and an early Symphonie Silver Bell.
The Symphonie was introduced in ´30 - in the beginning with a 12 1/8" pot. The following year a 11" version became optional. It seems, that during the 30s the 11" version became the #1 in production. However hard to tell, as very few were manufactored due to the depression years.
I´ve never played the large version, but some owners tell me, that the sound isn´t very good.
The 11" version on the other hand is very sought for and do keep high prices at the market - appr. 50% higher than for a classic SB in same grade and condition.
It has a very clear sound - a little like the early SB´s - plus a tremendous power due to the archtop tone ring and the extended resonator.
Maybe the actual Symphonie is the early large version. Try ask the store proprietor.
Kindly regards
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 03/14/2009: 04:02:16
Thank you for the data. Seems to be a matter of taste for which there is no bright line accounting.
POLLE: The serial number for this Symphonie is 30882 just one number from a Symphonie which you apparently owned at one time! I bought 30882 sight unseen based on a telephone description from the store luthier so will not know specifics until I receive it in a week or two as it must traverse the USA from west coast to east coast. How did you like your 30883??
Beezaboy
jims38134 - Posted - 03/14/2009: 06:00:38
Beeza, Please post pics when you get it!
Jim
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/14/2009: 07:35:54
John,
The Symphonie SN 30883 is still mine. She´s my "Second Lady".
Here she is: http://www.acoustudio.dk/BD%20Symphonie%201931.htm
It seems, that this banjo maybe is a prototype for the 11" version - the for sure original flange has F-holes, not clover leaf holes as found normally on this model.
She has been refinished in a modern way with deep reddish stain and high gloss lacquer at the neck and a matt super transparent lacquer on the resonator. Very beautifull.
I´m looking forward to hear about your example - will it be a 12 1/8" version or a 11" version like mine - and if so, how will the flange holes be.
Regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 03/14/2009: 10:06:54
Hi Beezaboy (and Polle) --
Congrats on the Symphonie!
I've only ever played one, and unfortunately, it had been "mucked"-with.
Coordinator rods had been added, etc.
A few years ago, I had a conversation with (I think) Johnny Baier
about the Symphonies. He said he'd played a Symphonie which
had superb tone. (But I can't remember if it was a large-rim, or 11-in.)
David Day was no slouch, when it came to banjo design. So I find it
near-impossible that he would put out a banjo with "poor" tone.
As I pointed out, in the other thread on Jazz Banjo history: musical
tastes began changing, by the early-thirties -- to a more "mellow"
sound -- especially as the guitar began making in-roads. (Thanks
mostly to the recently-improved microphone technology...)
Perhaps Day wanted to create a larger banjo, to provide a deeper
tone. And, as would be expected, the archtop design would keep the
membrane area smaller (for better treble response) while allowing
larger body/ resonator cavity -- to boost the lower frequencies.
The VOX was Vega's earlier (1927? 28?) answer to the "mellow" tone
issue... It had a VERY large resonator cavity. And those seemed to
work best as plectrums -- tuned lower....
I haven't even seen many Groton-made Symphonies, and I have had
(at most) TWO in my hands. I think the Groton-made ones are
underrated, misunderstood, and probably under-valued.
By the way... the original Patent for the Symphonie (Filed: 5/30/1931 --
Granted: 11/8/1932) clearly shows the first use of the "fleur-de-lis"
flange-hole on the Symphonie design.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Yz...&dq=%22David L. Day%22 banjo&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
(Many B&D fans refer to it as the "clover" flange -- but it's a typical
adaptation of a fleur-de-lis motif... To me, the Epiphone Recording
flange hole is a "Clover" design...)
The fleur-de-lis hole was eventually used on many of the lower-grade
B&Ds, most notably, the later Senoritas -- but it WAS originally intended
for the mid-range Symphonies... (And the Senorita was originally
introduced with the "bell-shaped" or "bell-flower" flange holes..)
Another "odd-ball" B&D to look for, is the "Frank Rieno" model.
I've only had ONE in my hands. But the tone-ring was, in-effect,
based on the same physical princples as the Fairbanks "Electric"
and "Whyte Laydie" designs. (And Dave Day obviously felt some
"ownership" in the development of those tone-rings.)
But, the Reino models were ALSO made as an ARCHTOP design.
It had a 10-in ring -- made from flat, tension-hoop bar-stock. The
ring sat on top of maybe 12-18 modified resonator screws --
spaced around the top surface of the rim. The large "thumb"-area
of the screws had been milled -- so the ring sat toward the inside
of the rim.
Here's a shot of a Reino tonering, on Gunter Amendt's site. The
banjo has been heavily restored. (And earlier Reino models
had taller resonator-screw "supports" for the ring):
http://www.banjoworld.de/High421.htm
Frank Reino's OWN Silver Bell NPU#8 (12-in ARCHTOP!) Make
sure you look at the NEXT page "part 2" for shots of the tonering:
http://www.banjoworld.de/High425a.htm
http://www.banjoworld.de/High425b.htm
Several more Reinos listed here (#84 - #87):
http://www.banjoworld.de/Bacon2.htm
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 03/14/2009 11:16:47
beezaboy - Posted - 03/14/2009: 15:55:37
Hi Men:
Thanks for posts! Made my day!! Will have to wait for it to arrive on probably March 24, 2009 before I can provide more information. I'm really curious about whether the flange is "F" or "Clover" (sorry Ed: old expressions refuse to die) and whether it is 11" or 12'. My guess is that it must be like Polle's model because both banjos must have been constructed during the same week wouldn't you think?
Anyway, "I'll be back" (Schwarzenegger, A. The Terminator. 1984).
Best,
Beezaboy
jbalch - Posted - 03/14/2009: 17:08:41
quote:
Originally posted by BrittDLD1
David Day was no slouch, when it came to banjo design.
Ed Britt
Ed...I always look forward to your posts...Thanks for sharing! "No slouch" indeed...that has to be the understatement of the year.
www.johnbalchmusic.comwww.myspace.com/johnbalch
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/15/2009: 02:54:03
John & Ed,
As far as I´ve noticed, Bacon produced their banjos in batches of 30-40 Nos. The number within a batch was handwritten on the rim under the tone ring on SB models.
Try examining my database - you´ll find, that a batch could contain many different models and grades - however this prosumes, that the SN´s were stamped somehow in a row.
The patent file for the Symphonie fits my datings in the database very well. The first Symphonie (#4) in the database is most likely sold for the first time in the summer/early autumn ´30.
Regarding the first 11"´s - Tsumura has SN 30768(A) in the "Big Book" - a #4 also with F-holes (like my example SN 30883). So I´m a little curious about your example, John.
Ed - you´re so right about Day´s inventions - I´ve personally never experienced "poorly sounding" creations from his hand. I do f.ex. personally regard the 11" Symphonie as the best SB tenor version (except for the late 20s NPU´s). That´s why, my Symphonie is my "Second Lady" - my "First Lady" is my #6 NPU from ´29. LOL!
I would very much like to make one of my "magic" set-up´s on one of those big-rim Symphonie tenors. I´m sure, that the result would be fantastic, only maybe a little "different".
Kindly regards
Polle
PS!
While we´re waiting for John´s Symphonie to pop up - maybe you, Ed, would wonder a little about this fantastic Silver Bell #2, that I purchased from Buddy Wachter last year.
http://www.acoustudio.dk/BD%20Silve...l%201925.htm
As pointed out by Buddy - the fantastic high grade maple used for the neck is normally only found on grade 4-5´s.
The SN indicates a ´25 production. However this banjos neck does carry some other "strange" features.
The profile of this non-steel reinforced neck is a little like the late 20s/early 30s extremely slim (reinforced) type. I´ve never had a mid-20s grade 4 or 5 in my hands - did these have souch a slim profile?
The peghead is of the type "B" - with those small ears. I´ve only seen one banjo from ´26 - all others from ´27 and forward - with this type peghead.
The neck on this #2 from ´25 is for sure original.
Do you have any knowledge/meaning about this?
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/15/2009: 03:37:51
Ed,
Regarding the patent file for the Symphonie - Sorry - my mistake about the years!
The production did in my opinion start in ´30 - maybe the patent was applied for afterwards.
It´s my impression, that B&D often did introduce new features, inventions, moderations, models etc. on high grade versions only - long before these became standard on lower grade versions.
The first Symphonie in my database (a #4 owned by Tsumura) has the SN 30430. Only a little higher than a Special #3 - SN 30404 - with a confirmed first sale in march ´30!
Kindly regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 03/15/2009: 13:13:13
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Ed,
Regarding the patent file for the Symphonie - Sorry - my mistake about the
years!
The production did in my opinion start in ´30 - maybe the patent was applied
for afterwards.
It´s my impression, that B&D often did introduce new features, inventions,
moderations, models etc. on high grade versions only - long before these
became standard on lower grade versions.
The first Symphonie in my database (a #4 owned by Tsumura) has the
SN 30430. Only a little higher than a Special #3 - SN 30404 - with a
confirmed first sale in march ´30!
Hi Polle --
(You and I are going to have to meet, at a banjo convestion, sometime...
We both have WAY too much info -- to transfer to each other -- and this is
hard way to do it...)
I just wanted people to SEE the original Symphonie Patents -- and begin to
learn how to study them, for themselves. (I didn't mean to call attention to
any "mistake" you might have made.)
Yes, I basically agree with you, about how B&D "introduced" new features.
BOTH Fred Bacon and David Day were involved in inventing, and developing
new ideas. (Fred is the inventor of the "NO-KNOT" tailpiece!)
They often made "prototypes" of new ideas, and showed them to prominent
players -- to get their critique. This often happened while they were still
developing the "final" form and details.
(And I can tell you, from personal experience, this is also how Chuck
Ogsbury works, at OME... And the prototypes are often sold as "specials"
at festivals -- or sold at discount, to endorsers.)
Mike Scheidlmeier was Bacon's major "test pilot" for the development of the
Bacon Blue Ribbons, BR Supertones, and the B&D Silver Bell -- from early
1922 to 1924.
Several of Fred Bacon's professional "friends" also received NEW production-
model Bacon Blue Ribbons, several weeks before the BR's official "introduction",
in 1922. (Including Frank Bradbury, Scheidlemeier, and Myron Bickford...)
There is some later correspondence (un-dated, from late-'22 or early-'23), from
Scheidlmeier, which states:
. . . "I am waiting for that sample A Super-tone Tenor-banjo that Mr. Day had
with him, on his trip, to arrive. I want it badly..."
(Scheidlmeier is referring to the short-lived "Supertone" version of the Bacon
"Blue Ribbon". There probably was a threat of litigation over the use of that
tradename -- which is probably why Bacon dropped it. )
Most "NEW" features WERE introduced on the high-end models first, and then
the "technology" would trickle-down to the lower models. (Still a pretty standard
procedure, in product development and marketing...)
There was ONE significant exception, however...
In 1923, the year after David Day came to Bacon -- Vaudeville's Cowboy
Banjoist, "Montana", became one of Bacon's premier endorsers.
Montana wasn't the best 'musician', among Bacon's endorsers -- but he WAS
the most-popular showman. And he touted himself as the "highest-paid banjoist"
in Vaudeville, at the time. (And his name eventually sold a LOT of banjos for
Bacon!)
The B&D "Montana Special" Silver Bell banjos were ALSO used to introduce
the newest developments, and accessories, to the lower-end of Bacon's
"professional" line of Silver Bells.
"Working musicians" could have the best of the new developments, and a
"distinctive-looking" (white holly) banjo -- at a slightly higher cost than the
standard Silver Bell No.1 Models.
In a few cases, the "Montana Specials" actually introduced new accessories
BEFORE the upper-model Silver Bells were cataloged with those features.
The Montana Specials were the first low-end Silver Bells to use:
. . . o Celluloid veneers, and fingerboard (grained Ivoroid at first)
. . . o Engraved and stained celluloid
. . . o Pearl-inlaid celluoid
. . . o Rhinestones in the peghead
. . . o First use of the later "B" peghead shape.
. . . o "Internal-reduction" geared pegs,
. . . o Arm rest,
. . . o Leg mute
. . . o Oettinger tailpiece
Montana's OWN banjos were custom made, and 3 are known to exist, which
have unusual features, and experimental tone-rings.
Montana played 4-string plectrum-style banjo -- but he played it on
the "old-time" 5-string -- mostly for LOOKS. (The 5th string was removed!)
The 5th PEG was there... but on one example, the 5-th string nut (pip) wasn't
even installed. And, there where ONLY 4 attachment lugs, for the loop-ends of
the strings.
Elderly has one, of two known examples, of Montana's early OPEN-back
banjos. Its Serial Number is 16606:
http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/60U-1899.htm It has an experimental tone-ring. It has a SOLID square bar of brass, sitting on
the rim. A series 1/4" brass rods run vertically through, and extend above, the
square bar. A brass ring sits on top of the vertical rods -- in another variation of
the "Electric", or Whyte Laydie", tone-ring. (See the Reino models, mentioned
earlier.)
Also note where 4 round lugs had been inserted into the butt of the tension-hoop
to attach the strings. (The lugs were saw-off at some point.) The two holes, in the
rim-cap, were used for inserting the legs of a wire knee-rest (now missing).
Note the peghead is fitted with original Ludwig Planet pegs. An early use of those.
#16606 banjo APPEARS to be THE actual banjo seen in Montana's 1924 promo
photo:
http://elderly.com/images/vintage/6...-catalog.jpg AND... There is ANOTHER example of a Montana "prototype" which
has VERY similar features:
It is EARLIER -- Serial Number: 11601.
The peghead is the earliest-known use of what is often-called the Silver Bell "B"
peghead. It has a 5-pointed rhinestone star, on the front of peghead -- and a
plain celluloid backstrap. It has a spun rim-cap -- like the 1923 "Super Blue
Ribbon" banjos. Otherwise, it has almost all of the SAME features as #16606.
When originally found, #11601 did NOT have a 5th pip installed. Unfortunately,
one has since been installed. (I know the current owner of #11601, and have had
the banjo in my hands, a few times.)
Just to confuse matters... A more "standard" Montana No 2 is exsits -- ALSO with
the serial #11601. It was "bought from a cowboy banjo player".... (It's also now
owned by the owner of Montana prototype #11601.)
I do have photos of the prototype #11601 -- I'll try to find them, and add them
to this post, later this week.
The earliest "production" Montana that I've come across is #11566. Unfortunately,
it's in very poor condition. (I talked Noel Induni into buying it, back in 2001.
Last I knew, he still had it...)
Montana's own NPU#9 (#23185) can be seen on plates 34 and 35 in "Ring the
Banjar" -- the catalog from the 1984 MIT Exhibit. But it has a "secret" which few
people ever noticed.
After the exhibit closed, I was able to examine the banjo. I removed the resonator
to find that the tone ring was ANOTHER experimental variation of the "Electric/
Whyte Laydie" ring.
About 12 to 18 hex-head shoe-bolts had been inserted into the top surface of
the rim. A 3/8" rod (or tube) was supported on top of the bolt heads. There was a
sheetmetal "apron" spun over the rod, which extended down the outside of the
rim -- just like an Electric or WL.
So... the guy who's name is on the pegheads of more Silver Bells, than probably
than any other endorser -- didn't even PLAY on a true "Silver Bell" tone-ring...
Montana's real name was "Ray Coleman" -- but he eventually changed his
name to "Ray Montana" -- and his progeny maintain that last name. His son,
Ray Montana Jr., conceived, and produced, the well-known "Archie" comics.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 03/15/2009 13:42:54
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/16/2009: 04:20:36
Hi Ed,
Thanks for shearing your huge knowledge about those beloved Ladies.
I don´t have a background similar to yours - I can only relate to the banjos, that I meet at the internet plus those, that are passing near by my "House of Banjos" here in Denmark.
BTW - an all original ´25 #6 NPU is located near to my home for now - Buddy Wachter (the owner and a dear friend of mine) did write me last night and offered me a purchase of this. He´s touring in Germany the following week - a pick-up will be possible then.
Regarding a meeting at a convention etc. in US - this will not be possible. I´m totally disabled due to severe back problems - I can only travel around in my custom built MPV - with my electric 3-wheeler on board. Try imagine bringing those heavy "devices" to US on board a plane!
So - in case of an indeed fullfilling meeting - you´ll have to travel to Europe! LOL!
Next week I´ll hopefully meet Buddy Wachter and Peter "Banjo" Meyer in Hamburg, Germany - Buddy has invited me for a meeting - maybe a threesome on stage will be possible - in april my guru, mentor and dear friend Don Vappie from N.O. is touring in Denmark - he has promised me a personal Masterclass during his visit.
So - dear Ed - as you can maybe see - it´s over here, that the snow is falling (a common local saying). LOL!
Maybe we should write off-line - but on the other hand - maybe other banjo freaks are interested in our "advanced" writings. I don´t really know.
Regards for now
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/16/2009: 04:39:45
Dear Jim,
Please mail me off-line - with some descriptions ´bout your fine banjos - plus a lot of pics - I´m a little courious.
Kindly regards
Polle
jims38134 - Posted - 03/17/2009: 09:03:52
Polle, my friend, I sent you an email.
Jim
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 03/17/2009: 10:23:38
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Hi Ed,
<snip>
BTW - an all original ´25 #6 NPU is located near to my home for
now - Buddy Wachter (the owner and a dear friend of mine) did write
me last night and offered me a purchase of this. He´s touring in
Germany the following week - a pick-up will be possible then.
Hi Polle--
Those early NPU No.6's are my absolute FAVORITE high-end B&D.
They are elegantly ornate -- with more emphasis on "style", and
less on "glitz". I'm jealous already!
Please say "Hi" to Buddy, for me, when you see him. It's always
great fun to get together with him.
quote:
Regarding a meeting at a convention etc. ... <snip>
... you´ll have to travel to Europe! LOL!
Polle
Sorry to hear about your back problems.
Well... perhaps my friend, Ulf Jagfors, will decide to invite me to a
banjo-event, in Stockholm, sometime -- and I can can stop-off,
in Denmark, on my way...
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 03/17/2009 10:24:34
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/20/2009: 02:06:01
Ed,
I´ve decided to have the roof of my house overhauled instead of puchasing the #6. The cost will be appr. the same - LOL!
I do aggree about the fantastic looks of those mid 20s #6´s - however I do consider the late, not so good looking 20s version to have a sound and power one step higher.
I´ve played some examples of both versions - I do absolutely prefer the late version.
On maple built SB´s I do prefer the Type II tone ring - but on ebony built SB´s the Type III tone ring brings out a more rich and even deeper sound.
But especially the extended resonator with a stepped flange - this with extra large F-holes leaving only a little metal between the holes - is essiantiel for the sound improvement. The resonator can "swing" more freely and indeed add a lot to the bass and low midrange sound. It´s my impression, that also the hard Pyralin surface of the resonator add some improvement.
Due to the importance of the resonator you´ll of course have to sit down while playing - in order to have this free of your body.
Regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 03/20/2009: 22:13:50
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Ed,
I´ve decided to have the roof of my house overhauled instead of puchasing the #6. The cost will be appr. the same - LOL!
Well... just think of it as providing a better shelter for your OTHER banjos.
They tend to de-laminate, when they get wet!
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
beezaboy - Posted - 03/23/2009: 17:54:08
The Symphonie is in today. First thoughts:
Peghead: B&D
Symphonie
Silver Bell
Dowel bottom: 30882 B&D Silver Bell No. 1
Dowel side: Made By The Bacon Banjo Co. Inc. Groton Conn USA
Rim is unmarked.
The mute is missing but evidence of its existence is apparent by hole in rim and scars on the dowel.
The banjo has been well played but fretboard is not grooved nor are the frets noticeably worn. The dye color on pearloid peghead and pearloid fretboard inlay is substantially faded. Most of the "jewels" surrounding the peghead are gone. Overall instead of flashy it is drab. The peghead has an overall brown cast to it. Not a museum piece.
The resonator/flange combo is "F" holes. The "F" holes are fat ones compared to a Silver Bell #1 I once owned which had "slim" "F" holes.
It is an archtop. The head sits upon a tube which tube is somehow connected to a skirted metal rim atop the wooden pot.
The banjo is set up beautifully. The action is exceedingly low with strings just millimeters from the fretboard and the neck must be laser straight for there is not a buzz from any string all the way up the 20 fret neck. It plays very easily with a nice treble ring and bottom end oomph. I don't know what to think. I'm not good enough a player to deserve such a sweet playing instrument. I'm more the mail order Slingerland type of banjoist!
Regards.
Beezaboy
jims38134 - Posted - 03/23/2009: 20:12:24
Pictures, please?
Jim
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/24/2009: 00:45:03
John,
Congratulations. Do know, that every player deserves an instrument better than himself! This will often animate the person to practice more.
I take, that she´s the 11" version. If so, I do now know of 3 Nos. early 11" Symphonies - all with F-holes - not "clover leaf holes" as normally found on this model. Indeed interesting for a freak.
Regarding a possible refinishing - do know, that a Symphonie like yours in near mint condition will go for USD 2,800-2,900 at eBay. There´s a fine market for those Ladies - they are fantastic banjos, but very hard to find.
My recommandation for a set-up will be:
- smooth white head (medium crown) - tuned to appr. Ab.
- heavy strings (f.ex. 010-014-024W-032W nickkel).
- Jim Farquhar 3-legged 5/8" bridge with Taqua inlays and standard spacing.
- 2.0 mm action at 12th fret.
This set-up will bring out a fantastic clear, yet widerange sound and a tremendous power.
Kindly regards and good luck
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 03/24/2009: 04:52:58
Polle:
Yes, forgot to mention it is eleven inch head now equipped with a Weather King (two words) smooth top. The "Weather King" head just has the words "Weather King" in block letters imprinted on it. Oettenger bear claw tailpiece. I think the banjo is mostly original with what appears to be an original case.
Beezaboy
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/25/2009: 05:09:41
John,
I do feel, that we´re somehow family related - or at least our Symphonie´s are - LOL!
Fantastic - two identical examples with serial numbers only 1 number apart.
I´ve included your banjo in my database. I hope, that this is OK for you.
http://www.acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bac...atabase.html
I wonder, how many 11" Symphonie´s were built that year. It´s my guess - not many - the depression years did have an enormous impact on the demand for such somehow costly Ladies.
Regarding the head on your banjo - do check, that the fingers on the Oettinger tailpiece does not touch the head. This will kill the sound.
If replacing the head - do buy a low or medium crown head - not a high crown.
Kindly regards
"Uncle" Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 03/25/2009: 10:19:51
Polle:
I am delighted that Symphonie 30882 was invited to be listed in your database. It is a proud moment for her. Thank you.
While on topic of your database what shall we do to get a lovely Gretsch B&D Serenader Silver Bell # 3107 tenor banjo and a very nice example Gretsch B&D Senorita # 0116 tenor banjo invited to the Gretsch section of the database? ED Britt dated the Serenader 3107 at 1952 from photos and description in a thread last summer. I thought 1954 from doing arithmetic on your database serial numbers estimating production figures from the database. I know these estimates are only estimates but at least they were researched estimates.
Best,
Beezaboy
rudykizuty - Posted - 03/26/2009: 04:23:37
Beez,
Congratulations on the Symphonie.
Anthony Herner
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/26/2009: 05:16:38
John,
Your two Gretsch´s are now included in the B&D/Bacon database. I´ve also put in the year ´52 (with a little question mark) for the Serenader.
However - do be aware, that I´ve recently put together all Gretsch SN sequences - there are to many of these and to litlle knowledge of manufactoring years/first sales dates to come up with historic correct determinations of productions years etc. We´ll have to wait for more facts to pop up.
All other B&D/Bacon owners/lovers,
Take a look at the database - and please report facts about your beloved examples - if you want to be marked as NN (or John Doe - LOL!) - please tell me so.
http://www.acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bac...atabase.html
Kindly regards
Polle
jims38134 - Posted - 03/26/2009: 14:03:46
Polle,
My Symphonie is sn 6840, and is verified to be a 1968 vintage. Stepped flange, fleur de lis flange (clover leaf?) flange holes, gold plated, archtop. Email me off list and I can provide more details/pics.
Jim
beezaboy - Posted - 03/26/2009: 14:58:13
Anthony - Thanks for your good wishes. The Symphonie is a marvelous banjo turns out.
Polle - Thanks for including the Gretsch Girls in your B&D database. Both of these banjos, the Serenader and the Senorita, are very nice original examples of the Gretsch era Bacons. BTW: Hangout Member Bill calls Gretsch products "Wretsch" as in "wretched" - but I don't think they're all that bad!
Beezaboy
jmack1745 - Posted - 03/27/2009: 00:07:29
Polle,
I too am a lover of the Bacon as well as the B&D Banjos. I currently own a 1924 Peerless 5 string, ser. #11404 with the "Little Wonder" style tone ring; a 1925 B&D Silver Bell No.1, ser. #15751 with ext fingerboard; and a 1926 Style C, ser. #17678. Please, feel free to add them to your data base if you deem them worthy, I'd be honored . If you need more info on them, or would like pics, again, feel free to contact me and I'll do my best to get you what you need.
Thanks,
John
I came into this world with nothing... and still have most of it left.
Life is like a Purple Antelope standing in a field of Tuna Fish.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/27/2009: 06:27:47
John McKenzie,
Your banjos are now included in the database.
Regards
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/27/2009: 08:35:34
John "Beezaboy",
Regarding "Wretsch" banjos - do remember, that both of your postwars are very early.
Gretsch did keep up a decent craftsmanship level for several years after the take-over - it´s my impression, that the level started going seriously down hill late 50s. Maybe Ed knows more about this.
Just now I´m packing three B&D/Bacon necks plus a complete Montana. They are going down to my master luthier Karsten Schnoor in Hamburg, Germany for restoring/refinishing.
Two of the necks are from Gretsch built Symphonie tenors - from ´61 and ´65, I think.
They do both for sure not have the quality as found on pre-wars - LOL! They are in fact wrongly built, causing a lot of trouble.
But !!!!!!!!!! Once restored/refinished - they will for sure - together with the other parts - make me having two fine banjos with a fantastic sound and a tremendous power. I´ll have no problems selling them afterwards at fine prices.
Because - there´s nothing wrong with the constructions - their poor rumour is only based on the low level craftsmanship.
Just as an info for you and others.
Regards - Pardon my poor English
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 03/27/2009: 09:50:30
Polle: Well, thank you for kind words about Gretsch Bacons!! 
The rumor here is that Gretsch instruments are of notoriously bad quality but I rather like them and have (among others) a 1924 and 1928 Orchestrella models that need set up but the materials in their construction seem to be of quality consistent with other banjos similarly priced. Not everyone could afford a Bacon Banjo Co. banjo even in the freewheeling Roaring Twenties we had in the U.S. The Gretsch Bacons are not nearly on the same level of quality and workmanship as the Bacons being supplied from the Groton, Conn factory when I compare Symphonie 30882 with Serenader 3107. Still, the Gretsch Bacons have their place.
Best,
Beezaboy
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 03/29/2009: 18:58:14
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
...The rumor here is that Gretsch instruments are of notoriously bad quality but I rather like them and have (among others) a 1924 and 1928 Orchestrella models ...
<snip>
... Still, the Gretsch Bacons have their place.
Beezaboy
Hi Beez --
I also think that the 1920s Orchestrellas ARE some of the nicest
Gretsch banjos. I've only had two beat-up ones in my hands --
but I seen photos of some very handsome ones, which appear as
good as the early-'20s Bacons.
But, it seems that all of the NYC area makers were so incestuous -- that
it's almost impossible to tell who REALLY made what. And I wonder how
much of the Orchestrellas Gretsch made in their own factory. (Just like
the c1912--1922 Bacons...)
Lange private-labeled for a LOT of companies. But all of the NYC
companies seemed to share sources for parts and materials.
As a known "bad-mouther" of Gretsch banjos -- I DO agree with you,
that they have a place in the market. And, if you are VERY careful,
and selective, I think you can actually find some nice Gretsch banjos
in amongst chaff. Even with the '60s Bacon models.
By the way... Be aware that there were apprently TWO "Gretsch"
companies making banjos for a while, in the late-20s. I have a note
about that in my files, somewhere -- with a small ad fro the "other"
Gretsch company.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 03/29/2009 19:05:51
beezaboy - Posted - 03/30/2009: 19:08:17
Hi Ed: Thank you for your reserved remarks about the Gretsch banjos. As usual you have chosen your words carefully and have reduced your exposure for someone quoting you with a soundbite herein as coming out enthusiastically for the Gretsch line of banjos!! The 20's Orchestrellas are pretty well constructed. Some time ago I bought an inexpensive 30's pearloid Orchestrella as a collectors item so as to compare it to the 20's models to demonstrate how the depression affected banjo quality. But turns out that old metal pot Orchestrella is FUN to play though it sounds like tuesday afternoon at the cannery.
Best,
Beezaboy
fairbanksbanjo - Posted - 04/02/2009: 09:08:24
Last night I did a presentation for the local historical society on banjos, and a young man walked in with a banjo case. Turns out he's Ray Montana's grandson, and he had his frandfather's B&D Silver Bell, 5 string, gold plated, with half a ton of rinestones all over it. I played it and it seemed to be in pretty decent shape. Said he also had a similar banjo mandolin at home. I was just wondering if you guys realized these banjos still existed
beezaboy - Posted - 04/02/2009: 09:28:43
Welcome Aboard Fairbanksbanjo and thanks for your post. The banjo you saw at your seminar is probably what many refer to as a "Holy Grail" banjo. Highly sought after by players and collectors (because the banjo is the result of superior craftsmanship) that have faith that such banjos exist (because they are shown in period catalogs or saw one once in the hands of another). You never know what is in another man's closet. Probably dirty socks but once in a lifetime a marvelous banjo is in there as well and comes onto the market.
Regards,
Beezaboy
Zencowboy - Posted - 04/06/2009: 07:22:06
Hey B&D Gurus,
I have a Silver Bell Serenader Tenor with a soft pedal and single fingers tailpiece. I am going to list it on eBay this week but I wanted to verify it's authenticity as I don't see any specific serial numbers. I hate to sell it but I am playing a Washburn right now and would really like to purchase a Stelling. Here is my listing that will give you more details:
This is a Vintage 1931 Bacon & Day Silver Bell Serenader Tenor Banjo with a very rare soft pedal that dampens the sound, a very rare and unique tailpiece that allows you to adjust the strings individually, antique strings, 5 packs of new strings and a Lifton case. The soft pedal say's "PAT. APR.14, 1931 B&D SOFT PEDAL". This is why I feel the banjo was manufactured in 1931. The tailpiece has a serial number of 3855 stamped in it (there is a picture of a 5 string version of this on page 44 in the book "How to Set Up the Best Sounding Banjo" by Roger Siminoff). The dowel stick has 5289 stamped on it and it looks like someone filed something off below it. The entire inside of the pot as well as the dowel stick have been painted gray at some point but I am not sure if they came like this originally. It also comes with 3 packages of very old National Musical String Co. One Black Diamond String Tenor Banjo Strings as well as I am including 5 new packs of Tenor Banjo Strings!!! The case looks like it must be the original as it came with marks where the soft pedal has worn the material. The case is made by Lifton and has the original plate on it that says "Built Like a Fortress" and is worth a lot itself. The only damage I have noticed is the fingerboard binding is separating at the base of the neck (pictures). This is an extraordinary piece of banjo history and will make some collectors day. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions about this beautiful instrument.
Thanks for any help you can give me with this!!!!
beezaboy - Posted - 04/06/2009: 09:13:36
Quick thought. SN 5289 sounds like a Gretsch made Bacon. Bacon Silver Bells and Gretsch Bacon Silver Bells were painted gray inside (at least all the ones I've seen were). If the flange cutouts are clover looking further indication that Gretsch made the banjo. Gretsch started making Bacon banjos in about 1939. If Gretsch made your banjo it is probably sometime post mid-1950's from my memory but your can check the online Bacon database for a better estimate. Gretsch Bacons are not as highly sought after as Groton, Conn Bacons.
Beezaboy
Zencowboy - Posted - 04/06/2009: 09:52:11
I started a new topic called "How do I verify authenticity of B&D Serenader?' so I wouldn't walk all over your prior communications. Thanks again for all of the help as I do not want to misrepresent an item especially a banjo.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!
