jpiperson2002 - Posted - 01/27/2009:  08:09:14

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Many posts talk about the desired weight range of banjo bridges and Siminoff's 'The Best Sounding Banjo' book talks about ratios of bridge weight to string wweight, but so far I haven't been able to find bridge weights listed on vendors' sites for commercial bridges.

I'll borrow a scale to weigh my 5/8 medium and 5/8 heavyweight moon bridges, 5/8 Snuffy Smith II, the Deering bridge which came with my Goodtime, and the unmarked Goldtone which came with my BG-250, and I'll post the numbers to this thread when I get them.

Can anyone point us to a more comprehensive list of common banjo bridge weights, or maybe weigh a few of their own for comparison purposes? As a newcome I'm mostly interested right now in trying commercial bridges which (I assume) are likely to be very uniform in weight.

thanks

John Piper

Helix - Posted - 01/27/2009:  14:33:00

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Hello John, and welcome to the forum, there are bridge makers galore, some sell them on the hangout. I, too, notice no grammage, no poundage noted except:

Look at xnavyguy's homepage, he and Art do xng (zing) bridges using vertical grain, it's radical, they publish the weights of their bridges, don't be afraid to be amongst innovators. About 1.8 to 2 grams.

There, I got in before people who make money making bridges could tell you what they think you should do. They will say the grain goes horizontal like it should, this uses the bridge as a filter, dampener to hold out unpleasant overtones.

When using vertical grain bridges, I notice no unpleasant overtones, I notice volume, tone, gobs of volume and tone to the acoustic limit of the banjo. Um....I have a recent thread about a banjo mute.

I, too, own Gold Tone OB 250 hardware, presently I use a Helix Black Walnut rim and a xng (TM) grapefruit bridge, they got the wood from some goober over in Arizona



(_)====''===::} Leave the music in a better place than you found it.

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Edited by - Helix on 01/27/2009 15:58:58

BigMikeUSMC - Posted - 01/27/2009:  16:08:41

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Hello John,

Good idea for a thread!

I weighed a few of my 'extra' bridges on an accurate torsion balance (good to 0.001 grams) and came up with the following:

Gary Sosebee, sunken wood compensated 11/16" Crowe spacing - 2.175 G
Snuffy Smith 5/8" compensated - 1.84 G
No Name (original Alvarez) 5/8" - 1.67 G

I also have several from xnavyguy that were right around 2.0 G IIRC and they sure sound good!

All the best,
Mike


"Better is the enemy of good enough"

desert rose - Posted - 01/27/2009:  22:11:58

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While design can effect this point I think you will find that most bluegrass banjo bridges that are known for good sound will fall within a consistant window

1.8 grams to about 2.4 grams

Since its wood there of course can be exceptions but this is the window we all seem to agree on when we get together ( bridge makers)

For my bridges I usually will not ship a bridge that falls outsie these numbers. On rare occations yes but as policy not really. Heavy ones will be lightened and light ones thrown in the trash

OF COURSE in all these discussions we are talking about 5/8 height, taller bridges can of course be heavier as the amount of wood increases slightly

Scott

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Edited by - desert rose on 01/27/2009 22:16:12

xnavyguy - Posted - 01/28/2009:  04:30:10

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When I am building a bridge prototype to test, my target weight is around 2.2 grams, a weight that seems to work well with a wide range of setups. We have tested prototypes of various configurations, all vertical grain bases, in a weight range between 1.4 grams all the way up to 3 grams. These prototypes do not show as much weight sensitivity as conventional bridges, where a change so small as a tenth of a gram can have profound differences in the performance of a given bridge. My bridge design accomplice, chief advisor & bridge tester and I have around 20 high quality "premium" aftermarket bridges that fall within a narrow weight range right around 2 grams. That is not to say that 2 grams would be an ideal weight because with conventional bridges, the type of material used for the base wood, will also be a factor in determining the optimum weight for a given bridge.

Because of the effects that can be realized by changing bridges and bridge weights, there are lots of folks who will use different bridges & weights to change the sounds of their banjos to suit their mood or to get a particular sound in a performance or recording situation. My approach to bridge building has been to come up with a bridge design that does not alter the character or sound of a given banjo but gets as much out of the banjo as possible, given the setup and the materials from which the banjo is constructed. My other goal has been to prove that a good banjo bridge can be built out of a wide range of base materials and have performance characteristics that rival or exceed the performance of anything else.

I'm sorry....it looks like I'm getting off topic here. Seems like your original question was about bridge weights.

Jerry

"The only security you will ever have is in your ability to perform."

jpiperson2002 - Posted - 01/28/2009:  05:35:35

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I appreciate the extra info and understand that bridge weight is only one of the factors affecting performance. As a beginner with 2 banjos who is taking both clawhammer and bluegrass classes I'm still at the stage of experimenting with the range of each instrument. So far I've swapped out 3 types of heads (Fyberskin, Renaissance & frosted) and tried 3 weights of strings. For the time being I'm using a Renaissance on a Goodtime with a Snuffy Smith bridge for clawhammer and the frosted head on the BG-250 with the Gold tone bridge for bluegrass.

I want to get a small set of additional bridges to test and am looking for a way to differentiate between different brands. Already have a medium moon and a heavyweight moon bridge on the way. The heavy moon bridge prompted my question about commercial bridge weights. I like the somewhat muted top end sound of the Snuffy Smith on the Goodtime and the medium moon was too bright when used with a Kelly Freedom pick for clawhammer, and got to wondering hoe the weight of the SS compared to the heavyweight moon bridge. So many different types of bridges are recommended by forum members that I couldn't afford to try even a fraction of them, knowing the weights of the bridges might help the comparison process a bit.

thanks

John Piper

RB00 - Posted - 01/31/2009:  17:45:36

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What do you use to weigh the bridges? We have a postage scale but it does not seem to record below 4 grams.
Thanks

Len

"Anything that is too stupid to be spoken is sung." Voltaire

xnavyguy - Posted - 01/31/2009:  17:59:37

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For the longest time, I used a penny (2.5 grams) as a counterweight on a 12 inch wooden ruler, balanced in the middle on the 6 inch mark. I put the bridge on one end and slid the penny until it balanced and then calculated the weight as a percentage of 2.5 grams based on where the penny balanced the bridge. Turned out to be extremely accurate. I've since bought the bullet and bought a small A and D scale from Fry's electronics.

Jerry

"The only security you will ever have is in your ability to perform."

desert rose - Posted - 01/31/2009:  18:11:37

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When I decided to offer my bridges to the banjo world I considered a proper scale necessary

I invested in a digital scale that weighs to 0.1 gram accurately

Scott

Sheldon - Posted - 01/31/2009:  19:27:30

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You can buy a digital scale from Midway USA for not too much $$. Midway is a
shooter's supply company and these scales are used to wiegh powder etc. They weigh
in grains or in ounces as I recall.

Sheldon

desert rose - Posted - 01/31/2009:  19:34:43

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You bring up a good point

Grain weight is not something that is common language, and needless to say either is ounces outside the US

I would recomend nothing but dealing with metric gram weight for the sake of common language. Its universally understood

Scott

Brian T - Posted - 01/31/2009:  22:28:47

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The SI metric system is the global standard, not open for debate. Twelfth Fret (Toronto/Canada) sells bridges based on mass in grams.

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

kat eyz - Posted - 01/31/2009:  23:51:14

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Helix ...Thank goodness you made the first post and maybe saved John from one of us " money making bridge makers". Its not nice to put words in other peoples mouths either. Take notice also that if you come across a "z" bridge ..a silvio bridge ..or a kateyz bridge and several others you will find the gram weight on the bottom of the foot as we have done this for years...probably should do a little more research before you make such a bold statement. If you have tested out several "quality" horizontal bridges to compare to vertical grain bridges you should have noticed we do this.

mike smith www.kateyzbb.com

silvioferretti - Posted - 02/01/2009:  02:34:41

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Thanks Scott and Mike, for being such fine spokesmen for the guild of money-making bridge-makers... My range of weight for Bluegrass-style (Mastertone-style) banjos is slightly different from Scott's, but just a tiny little bit, and it only applies to maple & ebony bridges: 1.7 to 2.1 grams. IMO - and for my taste - anything heavier than 2.1 g kinda mutes a banjo.

However, my buddy Kyle Smith always wants bridges in the 2.1 - 2.5 grams range, but here's the deal: he wants them with purple ebony top. Purple ebony (actually some kind of rosewood) is a lot lighter than Gabon or Macassar ebony, and it is less rigid. The bridges that I make for Kyle look a lot like NY steaks to me but they seem to work OK for the kind of setup that he uses, so evidently my taste and his taste are different, and they're both right of course.

Things are different again when building a lower bridge (less than 5/8"), usually for an old openback: my strategy is to use denser and stiffer wood(s) so that I can keep the weight in my favorite range but also keep the bridge thinner, or if I want to use some softer wood (like cherry) for tonal quality I have to be ready to find that the bridge that works best is a lot lighter, like 1.5 grams. Just the other night I noticed that the bridge that works best on my old A.E. Smith Northampton is slightly taller than 1/2" (it's .550"), it weighs 1.5 g, yet it's "normal" as far as thickness. It's made of Lost Forest sunken maple with a Braz. rosewood top, pretty cool, eh?

"Just once I would like to hear you scream in pain" "Play some rap music..." Bruce Willis on The Last Boy Scout.

Silvio Ferretti http://www.scorpionmusic.com

jpiperson2002 - Posted - 02/01/2009:  02:36:27

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Mike, your Kat Eyz bridges have been widely praised on the forum and I've ordered one already, along with a Scorpion, a Sullivan Factory floor, heavyweight Moon, Nechville Enterprise, Sampson & Hatfield.

I think that most newcomers are going to start with widely available commercial products with a track record and public feedback instead of starting with a small vendor or specialty products. Helix and other small producers are focusing on small production runs which appeal more to the folks who have already accumulated and tested the major commercial brands. I'm impressed that you bother to print the weight on the bottom of your bridges, small details like that say a lot about a vendor and how they view their customers.

So I've borrowed a scale good to 0.1 gm and will post the weights in this thread when my new bridges arrive but am expecting that the weights will be in a relatively narrow range which won't really predict their tonal affects. My real selection test is to video a few minutes of playing with each bridge so I can pick 2 or 3 personal favorites. Being able to quickly change the tonal character of a banjo by swapping out a bridge to suit one's mood is one of the really nice features of the instrument.

A couple months back I'd intended to buy a 3rd banjo (like surrounding myself with extra banjos might magically make me a better musician) but decided instead to put the money into testing different heads and strings and bridges. That's taught me much more about the possibilities of the instrument than collecting an extra banjo would have.

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Edited by - jpiperson2002 on 02/01/2009 18:53:19

granderman - Posted - 02/01/2009:  03:33:24

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here is a great big thanks to the # amigos Silvio Scott and Mike they all build great bridges for me they have helped me understand how to get the sound i like . thanks

"for those of you who think you hold the cards , I send to you my kind regards
For those of you who love and care I''ll see you down the road somewhere "
SteelDrivers

www.4everBlue.net www.nucraftdental.com
aloha T

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/01/2009:  06:37:40

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John,
One of the things that I have done, instead of selling my bridges, I have been swapping them, to other pickers, for one or more of their aftermarket bridges. As a result I now have quite a stash of these bridges, most of which are mentioned on this thread. Mike is right in his statement about the weights being marked on the bottom of the bridges. Besides the weights, some, like Silvio's will have other bits of information, like the date of productions or a particular batch of wood they used to make the bridge.

Jerry

"The only security you will ever have is in your ability to perform."

kat eyz - Posted - 02/01/2009:  08:34:33

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Jerry : ..It is a pain in the rear but i ledger all my bridges ....height..weight...string spacing...frame wood...topwood ...pegged /not pegged...customer name ...top width and foot width. Somtimes i will get an e-mail asking if i can make a bridge JUST like the one you made me about 2 years ago. ...with this info. i can get scary close to the original bridge......wood density varies so getting the top and bottom widths matched up along with the gram weight to match up is the tricky part but usually isnt too bad.

mike smith www.kateyzbb.com

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/01/2009:  10:49:04

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Mike,
After all the bridge "fiddling" I've done in the past 8 months, I can see how important it would be to keep those kinds of records. In the limited tests that Art and I have done with conventional style bridges, the weight and materials are huge factors in determining how a bridge will perform on a banjo with a given setup. I have to commend you on your willingness to keep the kinds of records it takes to be able to duplicate something you did in the past. Even with good records, I have trouble remembering what I did last week.

Jerry

"The only security you will ever have is in your ability to perform."

kat eyz - Posted - 02/01/2009:  13:57:40

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I can't remember yesterday Jerry ! My dad used to say a short pencil is better than a long memory every time ...and my mom used to tell me i was so forgetfull i could hide my own easter eggs ! LOL !!

mike smith www.kateyzbb.com

Sheldon - Posted - 02/01/2009:  18:50:16

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I checked my scale . . . . . It also weighs in grams to 1/10 gram.

This is a Frankford Arsenal Micro Relaoding Scale and sell for around $30.00.

Sheldon

Brian T - Posted - 02/02/2009:  08:16:18

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Another related product that I'd like to have is one of the XNG "string jacks" to quick change a bridge.

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/02/2009:  11:04:19

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Brian, these things are just a chunk of thin oak plywood that I made. In our very first bridge test session last year, Art was completely loosening the strings for every bridge change and then retuning his banjo. That's when I decided to make this thing.



There are quite a few folks who use something similar for changing bridges. There are some gadgets like this that you can buy that have some sort of eccentric shape like a cam lobe for doing the same thing. I know of some people that use a piece of yardstick for lifting the strings while changing bridges. Sure saves a lot of time when you've got 20 or 30 bridges to test and not a lot of time.

This is the jack that BHO member riverwindflutes uses to lift his strings:



Jerry

"The only security you will ever have is in your ability to perform."

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Edited by - xnavyguy on 02/02/2009 11:26:00

bango - Posted - 02/02/2009:  11:14:38

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I wonder what the weight of Bart Veerman's "Archie" bridge is... I love mine, and it's the smallest, thinnest bridge you can imagine. It looks to be about half the total bulk of most other bridges. Maybe 1 gram?

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/02/2009:  11:27:48

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I don't think Bart weighs his bridges. He's been making these things long enough and has such a good understanding of his materials, he can tell just by looking at one of his bridges if it will be a good one or not.

Jerry

"The only security you will ever have is in your ability to perform."

Bart Veerman - Posted - 02/02/2009:  20:55:31

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Yup, Jerry is right, I don't really weigh them as I use too many different woods to keep track of stuff like that. I stick to dimension numbers when I make bridges, in the end that kinda works out to the same thing anyways. As well, there are other numbers that are far more significant for me to take into consideration when I design them. I did weigh one of my teak bridges once in a before and after oil finishing experiment and if I remember correctly it was about 2.04 grams (yup, 2 decimals on a funky pharmacy scale).
Michael, thanks for the thumbs up on the Archie. Yeah, they're petite aren't they...


Bart Veerman, Bridge Maker
"may your moments of need be met by moments of compassion"
free clawhammer and three finger tabs
royalty free original banjo tunes

jpiperson2002 - Posted - 02/08/2009:  04:23:34

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Here are the weights of the bridges I've received so far, I'll post the weights for a Scorpion, Sampson violin style and Bart Veerman Teak when those bridges arrive next week;

Deering Goodtime: 2.04
Goldtone BG-250: 2.46
Hatfield Compensated: 1.98
Kat Eyz: 2.26

Moon - Heavy: 2.00

Nechville Enterprise: 2.33
Sampson old growth Walnut/Maple: 2.25
Snuffy Smith: 2.40
Sullivan Factory Floor: 2.33

Here's a picture of the bridges in the same order as above, with the crescent shaped Moon at the lower center;

#

And a picture of the bridge removal tools I copied from xnavyguy's post earlier in the thread, just a 3/4" dowel trimmed flat along each side so it will slide under the strings along the bridge.



I plan to spend a few enjoyable hours this afternoon swapping out bridges on my 2 banjos, a Deering Goodtime for clawhammer and a Goldtone BG-250 for bluegrass, and taking video of the results so I can hear the difference. My goal is to find the 2 or 3 bridges which best accentuate different parts of the tonal range for each of my 2 banjos so it will sound (as much as possible) like I'm using a different banjo when I swap out a bridge. I'm not nearly as interested in finding the 'one best sound' in my banjos as I am in finding the 3 uniquely different sounds which the right bridges can bring out in each instrument.

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Edited by - jpiperson2002 on 02/16/2009 11:52:48

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/08/2009:  04:59:34

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Yesterday while at the jam in Pearl, TX, I replaced a couple of Moon bridges with my bridges. One of the Moon bridges was labeled
H (heavy?) and weighed 2.2 grams. That's a 10% variation over the one you weighed. It was on a brand new Chuck Lee custom Cherry CH 5 string. I replaced it with a 2.6 gram Purpleheart over Maple Dam Spillway bridge.

The other was labeled M (medium) and weighed 1.6 grams. It was on a custom Allan banjo.I replaced it with a 2.4 gram Bamboozler New Wave bridge. I'm reasonably certain the Allan banjo had a JLS tone ring and I think the Chuck Lee banjo may have had one as well.

If the Moons that I weighed yesterday were 2.2 grams for the heavy and 1.6 for the medium, a light one must be but a wisp of a thing.

Jerry

"The only security you will ever have is in your ability to perform."

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Edited by - xnavyguy on 02/16/2009 04:09:04

jpiperson2002 - Posted - 02/15/2009:  14:42:47

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Here's an updated list of weights for all of my 5/8" standard spaced bridges;

Bart Veerman Teak & Ebony: 2.34
Deering Goodtime: 2.04
Goldtone Straightline: 2.46
Hatfield Compensated: 1.98
Kat Eyz: 2.26
Moon - Heavy: 2.00
Nechville Enterprise: 2.33
Sampson old growth Walnut/Ebony: 2.25
Sampson violin style: 3.29
Scorpion: 2.08
Snuffy Smith: 2.40
Sullivan Factory Floor: 2.33

And here are a couple of pictures;





The Sampson violin style bridge is by far the heaviest at 3.29g and it has the largest footprint, not surprisingly it's also the most effective of these bridges at reducing high frequencies. The differences in sound filtering between the other bridges are more subtle.

Right now I'm using the Sampson old growth walnut/ebony bridge for it's nice full sound on my Goodtime with light strings (9,11,13,20,9) & Renaissance head, but it will take me quite awhile to compare them all and settle on the ones I prefer the most.

Yesterday I swapped out the Goodtime Presto tailpiece with a no knot tailpiece for the 'old time' look and the reduced string angle between the tailpiece and bridge has also reduced the amount of high frequencies produced by the head. That's one of the most enjoyable and frustrating things about the banjo, so many parts to swap out and each one of them affects the interplay of the rest.

John Piper

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Edited by - jpiperson2002 on 02/16/2009 11:54:39

lazyarcher - Posted - 02/15/2009:  18:33:11

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Wow..I like this kind of info...it saves me from peeking into peoples shop windows and finding all their secrets....
I build all of my bridges from the same type of wood--submerged maple, and African blackwood--so the weights stay very consistant to achieve the same tones. To my ears, the submerged maple/blackwood sounds best on the heavier side--2.2-2.5gr for a 5/8 & .656" bridge. 11/16" and up, just a bit more. The wood is so dry, lighter weights get shrill sounding.
I weigh all of my bridges on an old Herters powder scale in grains. I then convert to grams. I put both weights on the foot, as well as the height, spacing, and standard or compensated. I also put this info on the box with the bridge.

I tried making some bridges with the grain vertical. After breaking off the feet and edges of far too many bridge blanks, I got one on a banjo. Didn't make one iota of difference with my bridges, so I'll stick to my un-innovative methods.

Dave Jack

Bart Veerman - Posted - 02/16/2009:  10:44:23

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John: just for completeness, did you weigh my A or B weight bridge? The marking for it is on the bottom of the middle foot: TEA or TEB (Teak, Ebony, weight A or B). Also, what was the relative humidity percentage during the weighing?

Bart Veerman, Bridge Maker
"may your moments of need be met by moments of compassion"
free clawhammer and three finger tabs
royalty free original banjo tunes

jpiperson2002 - Posted - 02/16/2009:  12:19:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bart Veerman

John: just for completeness, did you weigh my A or B weight bridge? The marking for it is on the bottom of the middle foot: TEA or TEB (Teak, Ebony, weight A or B). Also, what was the relative humidity percentage during the weighing?

Bart Veerman, Bridge Maker

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Hi Bart, per the bottom of the bridge: 1 TEB 5/8 44 5

2.33g at 28% relative humidity using a small solid state scale + - 0.01g.

Good sounding bridge, thinner cross section than most of the other bridges, nice color.

Just swapped out the Deering Presto tailpiece that came with my Goodtime with a simple no knot tailpiece for more of the old time look and spent part of this morning trying out the different bridges with clawhammer strumming. I've had a lot of fun swapping out heads and string sizes to see how it affects the Goodtime's sound. Comparing these bridges is about the last step in selecting the sounds I want from this particular banjo. I'll try the same bridges on my Goldtone BG-250 resonator for a bluegrass sound once I have the Goodtime set up the way I like it for clawhammer.

I've made a few cosmetic mods to my Goodtime recently. Here's how it looks with a trimmed peg head, scooped neck with ornament, Nechville armrest, Renaissance head, no knot tailpiece, a wood coordinator rod cover (cosmetic - for looks only), and a small vanity name plate on the heel of the neck;



John Piper

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Edited by - jpiperson2002 on 02/16/2009 12:25:09

silvioferretti - Posted - 02/16/2009:  17:52:19

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Just FYAI (i.e. For Y'All's Information ), weight means nothing (or very little) if it does not refer to a specific kind of wood. That's why Bart asked you about what kind of bridge you weighed. Comparisons can be made only between apples and apples, oranges and oranges: weighing a sunken maple bridge with ebony top and comparing it with a Bosnian maple bridge with ironwood top (for instance) makes no sense whatever. John said in his initial post that he assumed "commercial bridges" to be very uniform in weight, well, they're not... And trying to turn a very anisotropic thing like wood into an even, standard-izable thing is pure utopia. Bridges - to me - are becoming more and more like snowflakes... Know what I mean? However, if one compares bridges made out of the very same type of wood, in different weights, also different shapes maybe, then and only then one might get results that would make a little sense.

"Just once I would like to hear you scream in pain" "Play some rap music..." Bruce Willis on The Last Boy Scout.

Silvio Ferretti http://www.scorpionmusic.com

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Edited by - silvioferretti on 02/16/2009 17:57:30

steve davis - Posted - 02/16/2009:  18:10:48

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The walnut/ebony bridges I've made are better at a lighter weight than my maple/ebony ones.

7ball

jpiperson2002 - Posted - 02/16/2009:  19:41:42

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quote:

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....However, if one compares bridges made out of the very same type of wood, in different weights, also different shapes maybe, then and only then one might get results that would make a little sense.

Silvio Ferretti http://www.scorpionmusic.com

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Silvio, as you've pointed out, the weight of the few bridges I've compared doesn't strongly correlate to the bridge's filtering effect on the sound, other than the much heavier 3.29g Sampson violin style which seems to tone down the higher frequencies more than the other somewhat lighter bridges. The internal sound damping characteristics of the wood used and the interference patterns of the different frequencies as they mix while traveling through the bridge arms to the foot pads are defining the sound filter functions for the bridges.

It would be interesting to see the filter response for some of these bridges by comparing the vibrations at the feet when the bridges are excited by individual notes. Things get complicated fast when multiple frequencies are pumped into a bridge but it's obvious that we'd see that certain types of bridges (materials & design) selectively dampen or enhance some input frequencies more than others.

As an engineer by training I would prefer a more analytic process which would characterize a bridge's filter function over different frequencies to make it easier to pick the 'right' bridge for the desired sound. Until that happens we need to sort of stumble along trying different types of bridges selected for the most part based on anecdotal observations about the mellow or bright or full sound brought out by a particular bridge design or material.



John Piper