carlb - Posted - 11/14/2008:  05:27:21

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I've recently updated the spreadsheet for the data base:

THE BACON BANJO IN THE EARLY 20th CENTURY
FF AND PROFESSIONAL MODELS
Data for Bacon Banjos with Internal Resonators (and a few others) - Estimated dates of manufacture from 1905-1922
http://c.b.baron.home.att.net/Bacon...njoData.html

A few new instruments have been added. I'd appreciate if anybody who has an instrument not in the data base, to please contact me so I can get the data to add to what's already there.

Carl

"Just around the corner is someone who plays better than you....." "There will always be someone who likes your music and someone who dislikes your music. Get over it......." [Dan Haerle, former music prof at University of North Texas]

pgroff - Posted - 11/14/2008:  06:46:37

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Hi carlb,

When I get a chance I will dig out my Professional 2 tenor and send you the info.

I have noticed a couple of puzzling things in the brief time I have been learning about these instruments. First, that many people (especially 5-string players) automatically use the designation "ff" every time they mention a Bacon IR banjo. However, my IR Bacon doesn't have the "ff" marking stamped anywhere, and the Bacon catalog listing from the mid-20s also fails to use the "ff" designation for this model.

Second, many folks seem to refer to the "Bacon donut-style tone ring" found on some Bacon IR banjos as "the Bacon ring," which is confusing to me since several very different tone ring systems were used on Bacon banjos (even aside from the various B & D silver bell rings).

My Bacon Professional 2 has a tone ring (evidently original, based on the condition of the banjo) that is identical to the one on my Bacon Peerless -- somewhat like a Vega Little Wonder ring -- and I have heard of other Bacon IR banjos also made with this ring. (However, the rim of my Pro 2 is turned a little differently from the Peerless rim and does accept the modern repro Stew Mac "Bacon donut" ring).

So what exactly is the difference between a Bacon "ff" and a Bacon IR banjo (such as my Professional) that is not labeled "ff" -- is the "ff" designation specifically for the donut-tone-ring IR Bacons? If so, maybe we should all be calling that donut tone ring the "ff," not the "Bacon ring," and we should not call all Bacon IR banjos "ffs."

I raised this point back in March with no takers:

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=115136

And noticed that very recently a real banjo expert (unlike me!) listed a Bacon IR tenor on ebay as a "Bacon FF Professional No. 3" though it did not have the donut tone ring.

PG

fretlessinfortwayne - Posted - 11/14/2008:  11:00:55

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Carl, If you remember, you let me play your FF when I came to your jam back in the spring. It was a pleasure to play. I sure hope to get one of those banjos one day. Thanks again for loaning me your banjo for that jam session.

Dean

"Hooray Jake, Hooray John, Breakin'' up Christmas all night long."

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Edited by - fretlessinfortwayne on 11/14/2008 11:01:35

RG - Posted - 11/14/2008:  11:37:48

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Carl - Cool database! I am the proud owner of # 419 which I bought from Bernunzio's some time back...man do I love this banjo! A small detail, but # 419 does not have marquetry on the pot, however it does have a thin tortoise shell binding on the outside bottom edge.

I've told my kids that this one stays in the family!

RG

"I''m too drunk to taste this chicken..." The Late, Great Colonel Sanders

carlb - Posted - 11/15/2008:  07:00:16

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quote:

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Originally posted by pgroff

Hi carlb,

When I get a chance I will dig out my Professional 2 tenor and send you the info.

However, my IR Bacon doesn't have the "ff" marking stamped anywhere, and the Bacon catalog listing from the mid-20s also fails to use the "ff" designation for this model.

Second, many folks seem to refer to the "Bacon donut-style tone ring" found on some Bacon IR banjos as "the Bacon ring," which is confusing to me since several very different tone ring systems were used on Bacon banjos.

My Bacon Professional 2 has a tone ring (evidently original, based on the condition of the banjo) that is identical to the one on my Bacon Peerless -- somewhat like a Vega Little Wonder ring -- and I have heard of other Bacon IR banjos also made with this ring. (However, the rim of my Pro 2 is turned a little differently from the Peerless rim and does accept the modern repro Stew Mac "Bacon donut" ring).

So what exactly is the difference between a Bacon "ff" and a Bacon IR banjo (such as my Professional) that is not labeled "ff" -- is the "ff" designation specifically for the donut-tone-ring IR Bacons? If so, maybe we should all be calling that donut tone ring the "ff," not the "Bacon ring," and we should not call all Bacon IR banjos "ffs."

PG

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PG,

I'll try and answer your questions one at a time.

Thanks for the future info.

First, my Bacon also does not have an "ff" marking. If you look down the data base, after about #7000, there are quite a few Internal resonator (IR) banjos that are marked only "Professional 2" or "Professional 3".

Second, I've only come across two types of tone rings. The vast majority are the dish shaped ones (see Patent diagram). However, mine. and few others, have ones that are just turned under (Is this what you mean by doughnut; in the data base it's designated as "ring"; note that some of the designations were already in the data base when I received it; I don't know what "smal" is). The secret, I think, to the set up of the Bacon tone rings, either style, is that it does not rest on top of the pot, but is suspended and the outside of the tone ring is supported by a very thin shelf on the pot, which probably would probably collapse if it wasn't for the fact that it rests on the shoes. Check out the patent diagram at the bottom of <http://c.b.baron.home.att.net/Bacon...ics.pdf>.
The space varies in thickness from about 3-4 mm down to the thickness of a piece of paper.

So, in regards, to your third point, there really isn't any difference in regards to the qualitative aspects of the IR. Some of the data that was not collected in the original survey was the thickness of the wood used in the in the IR and the distance of the opening between the skin and the inside top of the IR (some I can get my fingers in and some I can't).

If you have any more questions, you can either post them directly or contact me by email.

Carl

"Just around the corner is someone who plays better than you....." "There will always be someone who likes your music and someone who dislikes your music. Get over it......." [Dan Haerle, former music prof at University of North Texas]

carlb - Posted - 11/15/2008:  07:05:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by RG

Carl - Cool database! I am the proud owner of # 419 which I bought from Bernunzio's some time back...man do I love this banjo! A small detail, but # 419 does not have marquetry on the pot, however it does have a thin tortoise shell binding on the outside bottom edge.

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RG,
Thanks for the info. It will show up the next time I upload the data base. My guess is that it was a data entry error. I've only entered data for a litlle over 30 banjos in the data base. The rest came to me intact though I did set it up in the spread sheet from a comma delimited file.
Carl

"Just around the corner is someone who plays better than you....." "There will always be someone who likes your music and someone who dislikes your music. Get over it......." [Dan Haerle, former music prof at University of North Texas]

pgroff - Posted - 11/15/2008:  17:46:52

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carlb wrote:

Second, I've only come across two types of tone rings. The vast majority are the dish shaped ones (see Patent diagram). However, mine. and few others, have ones that are just turned under (Is this what you mean by doughnut; in the data base it's designated as "ring"; note that some of the designations were already in the data base when I received it; I don't know what "smal" is).

Hi Carl,

Many thanks for your insights. So much for a simple working hypothesis. Since some entries in your database lack a description of the type of tone ring, I thought it was possible that most or all the Bacon IR banjos lacking the "FF" designation originally had what you call the "ring" (non-dish type tone ring). Since the dish-type tone ring has been reproduced in recent years and evidently fits the old IR rims even when originally fitted with the simpler tone ring, it could have been possible that some or all of the non-FFs shown with the "dish" were retrofitted...

But assuming the database is correct about FF vs. non-FF stampings and also that the rings as listed are original, then you do record Bacon IR banjos without the FF that have the dish ring. Interesting.

Re: your question to me, I was actually using the term "Bacon donut-style tone ring" to describe what you call the dish type ring. I think I have seen reference to this description, because (like the different but also wide Washburn donut tone ring) the "dish" Bacon ring can look like a donut from above or below. I think what you call simply the "ring" is probably what I have on my 1920s Peerless and (originally) on my Professional 2, and that I compared to the Vega Little Wonder type.

You mention you have only seen two types of Bacon tone rings. Maybe you mean in the IR Bacon banjos? FWIW I also have a 1920s Bacon Style C tenor that has a simple hoop ring, different from either ring you describe, fitted tightly into a trough turned in the outer edge of the top of the rim. Of course, this banjo doesn't have the IR. Then there are some interesting (early proto-Silverbell?) rings on other Bacon banjos such as the Blue Ribbon, Super, etc; I recently saw one that was perforated like the outer half only of an early silverbell ring but lacked the underlying steel rod and was spun over a perforated wooden bead. It still seems to me that to call the Stew Mac repro "donut" or "dish" ring "the Bacon ring" as it is often described these days is comparable to calling a tubaphone ring "the Vega ring" -- it misses a lot of the variants that are out there.

Paul

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Edited by - pgroff on 11/15/2008 17:56:44

gottasmilealot - Posted - 11/15/2008:  18:04:49

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Thanks for the information Carl. You might want to submit that link to the links section so it can be kept in the reference section, if you haven't done so already.

Keith

Banjo Hangout Rules and Guidelines.

carlb - Posted - 11/15/2008:  19:42:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by pgroff

Since some entries in your database lack a description of the type of tone ring, I thought it was possible that most or all the Bacon IR banjos lacking the "FF" designation originally had what you call the "ring" (non-dish type tone ring).

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Paul,
The reason why the type of tone ring is missing in some entries could either be: they were left out in the original survey or I could not ascertain from the pictures on the internet what the tone ring was. Also, many entries are without dimensions as I could not tell that from photographs either. We do what we can.
Carl

"Just around the corner is someone who plays better than you....." "There will always be someone who likes your music and someone who dislikes your music. Get over it......." [Dan Haerle, former music prof at University of North Texas]

carlb - Posted - 11/15/2008:  20:00:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by gottasmilealot

You might want to submit that link to the links section so it can be kept in the reference section, if you haven't done so already.

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Thanks Keith. I just submited my site as well as POLLE FLAUNOE's site. However, I did put it under the category "Banjo Makers" which was under "Shopping". There is no category for collectors. We see if Eric lets the lilnks be added.
Carl

"Just around the corner is someone who plays better than you....." "There will always be someone who likes your music and someone who dislikes your music. Get over it......." [Dan Haerle, former music prof at University of North Texas]

pgroff - Posted - 11/15/2008:  20:08:53

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Carl,

Thanks.... just to be clear, I was not complaining about the database! It is great that you are making all this research available. Just trying to understand whether there could have been any consistent nomenclature on the part of Bacon to describe the occurrence of the different tone rings. My first post raised (as an admitted speculation to be tested) that the IR banjos stamped/catalogued as "ffs" might originally have had the dish ring and that those like mine without the "ff" stamp had the narrower ring. Looks like it is not that simple. It is interesting though that Bacon IR banjos are sometimes described by their owners as "ffs" even when they lack that stamp anywhere.

Thanks again for your insights.

PG

jmack1745 - Posted - 11/20/2008:  23:34:18

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Are the ffs actually stamped as such? I always took it to be in reference to the two fs cutout in the resonator. I have a Silver Belle and they are "classeified" by the hole design in the resonator flange: round, f , tulip, clover, so I just thought the professionals were done the same....

I came into this world with nothing... and still have most of it left.

Life is like a Purple Antelope standing in a field of Tuna Fish.

RG - Posted - 11/21/2008:  00:32:23

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My Bacon is stamped "Bacon Professional" in a rectangular outline followed by 'FF" in a diamond outline, s/n stamped on side of dowel stick...

RG

"I''m too drunk to taste this chicken..." The Late, Great Colonel Sanders

jmack1745 - Posted - 11/21/2008:  08:48:53

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quote:

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Originally posted by RG

My Bacon is stamped "Bacon Professional" in a rectangular outline followed by 'FF" in a diamond outline, s/n stamped on side of dowel stick...

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Cool, thanks. I learned sumpin' new today! Now, does your ff also have the f cutouts in the resonator? And do the non stamped have the cutouts too or are they solid? I am under the understanding they did not have the f style cutout until Bacon moved to Groton, perhaps this is the difference?

John

I came into this world with nothing... and still have most of it left.

Life is like a Purple Antelope standing in a field of Tuna Fish.

pgroff - Posted - 11/21/2008:  09:04:29

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Hi John,

I have now seen a couple examples of Bacon banjos from the 1920s built with internal resonators (and with f holes, usually 2, on the back side) that were not stamped "ff" anywhere. If I understood Wyatt Fawley correctly, the Bacon Professional 3 tenor he has currently listed on ebay also lacks the "ff" stamp (but better check with him to be sure if you are interested in that beautiful banjo -- wish I could afford it right now, especially at that very reasonable price). The early 1920s Bacon catalog I have seen doesn't list these as "ff" models, it calls them "Professional 2" for example. The ones I have seen did *not* have the "dish" or "donut" type Bacon ring that extends far into the pot. That is why I wondered if the "ff" designation that was indeed stamped on other Bacon banjos and also listed in earlier Bacon catalogs might have specifically referred to the IR ones with the "dish" type ring.
But the database Carl has provided seems to contradict that theory.

Paul

RG - Posted - 11/21/2008:  21:23:04

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John, my Bacon does not have "f" holes (they look more like "squiggles"), there are 20 of them ...also has the "1903" patent stamp. My understanding is that the early Bacon FF's were made by either Vega or Rettburg/ Lange prior to Bacon's move to CT, the neck on my FF is definitely made by Vega, I don't think there's any rhyme or reason to the designation, maybe the various factories forgot to stamp a few...I once had a pristine Cole's Eclipse, one owner & all original, but without a s/n...one thing I have learned with old banjos is there is very little standardization in their production markings with a few exceptions (SSS, Vega & Fairbanks for example)...

RG

"I''m too drunk to taste this chicken..." The Late, Great Colonel Sanders