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beezaboy - Posted - 09/01/2008: 03:12:16
Buddy Watcher has a pre-war B&D #2 tenor on ebay item 120298974076 (I'd link but it doesn't work for me). A new Ome Professional tenor is valued at about $4,000. For value, playability and sound I wonder which is superior?
Beezaboy
rexhunt - Posted - 09/01/2008: 06:36:26
I really think we are in a new golden age of banjo building so a new Ome would certainly be a great choice but that sure is a nice looking Silver Bell. I suppose it comes down to the price. Do you have any idea what the reserve is on the B&D?
Rex
mikehalloran - Posted - 09/01/2008: 07:31:24
Being re-finned and re-plated hurts some of the collector value but, since you are looking for a "player", the choice is obvious. Bid up to what you can afford and, if the price runs away, know that OME will make a very nice banjo for you
Mike Halloran
beezaboy - Posted - 09/01/2008: 08:30:48
John - Thanks for putting her up.
Here is the Ome professional on the far right:
http://www.omebanjos.com/jazzbanjos.html
What if price was not a consideration. Is one banjo superior in sound and playability to the other?? Vintage vs. New???
Beezaboy
rexhunt - Posted - 09/01/2008: 09:01:39
Replating won't hurt the collectors value for tenor players. Tenor and plectrum players care more about appearance than originality.
Rex
pgroff - Posted - 09/01/2008: 09:27:55
quote:
Originally posted by rexhunt
Replating won't hurt the collectors value for tenor players. Tenor and plectrum players care more about appearance than originality.
Rex
Rex,
Speak for yourself, if you are a tenor player ..... What you write is not true of all of us.
Paul
Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/01/2008: 10:24:08
Hi Paul,
As a 5-string player, I agree (to an extent) with Rex--at least as to the market we can see. It seems to me th at the restorations of the kind done by Renee Karnes and Vinnie Mondello testify to the interests of the 4-string community. 5-string players seem to prefer minimal replating and refinishing--and only if an instrument's really trashed. That said, individual tastes do vary.
Bill
pgroff - Posted - 09/01/2008: 10:55:29
Bill (and Rex),
I hope my reply didn't seem harsh or unfair. However, look at the comment to which I was responding, which was a completely unqualified blanket assertion about tenor players in general. I think it very important to distance myself from that generalization.
IMO there have been a few different generations, very broadly defined, of tenor banjo players (and buyers, and collectors). Even if your assessment has been *largely* true of many players in the older generation, it may not hold as younger players start to pick up the baton (and the vintage instruments).
Furthermore, there is a danger that the propagation of a prejudice (such as "tenor players don't care about originality of finish, or parts") may lead to decisions that owners (or even "instrument flippers" ) might someday regret. IMO it often does make sense to part out some low-grade or damaged tenors, since there is such an overabundance of them relative to players, and those valuable parts can be very useful to build or repair other instruments that today's players need. But I would hate to see the originality (finish, original parts) of every tenor, especially really fine ones, compromised because of some dogma that this is what today's tenor market wants. Number one, that statement is not totally true today; number two, originality might well be valued more in the future; number three, once you trade away originality, it can be hard (parts) or impossible (finish etc.) to recover.
That said, I would always prefer a great playing and great sounding banjo to one that is "merely" all-original.
Just my perspective. Your own values (when speaking for yourself, not for me) are just as valid. And neither one of us, alone, makes a market.....but think about how many other collectible markets have "matured," whether sooner or later, to value originality very, very highly.
Paul
mikehalloran - Posted - 09/01/2008: 10:56:23
>What if price was not a consideration. Is one banjo superior in sound and playability to the other?? Vintage vs. New???<
Hard to go there. You would have to A/B the two instruments. The OME are exceedingly well built. This vintage piece has been taken apart, re-done and put back together -- looks excellent, probably is. The neck angle is advertised as being near-perfect. What's not to like?
It would surprise me if the #2 approaches the $4K mark. As I said earlier, the re-fin and re-plate will hurt the value for many players. I am guessing that this can be had for $2500 or so, possibly less. A #5 would certainly be worth a lot more, of course, but a #2?
Mike Halloran
mikehalloran - Posted - 09/01/2008: 11:01:24
If one was to find two identical collectible banjos, one in near mint condition and the other re-plated and re-finned, we all know which is more valuable, don't we? Of course we do.
The issue is a banjo in worn condition vs one that has had "complete restoration". The more collectible the piece, the more it (originality) matters. 5 strings are generally more collectible so restoration hurts the value more.
Mike Halloran
Edited by - mikehalloran on 09/01/2008 11:02:11
pgroff - Posted - 09/01/2008: 11:12:30
Mike,
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but think of a few different scenarios:
1) You are comparing the value of a refinished, replated banjo against one in near mint condition (your last example). This also *might* be the comparison relevant to the initial question, does refinishing make an instrument less valuable (relative to the value of one that did not need refinishing to look great).
2) You have a banjo that is cosmetically worn and are contemplating a refin/replating. Here some of the issues include A) What does the facelift cost and will the refinished result be worth that much more than it was worth before refinishing? B) Are there potential buyers for the original piece who will reject it if refinished? C) Do you just want it spiffed up no matter whether you lose value by the decision? (etc., etc.)
3) You have a tenor banjo with some original parts that are worth a good deal to 5 string players, who value those original parts on a 5 string made by the same maker..... Do you swap out the parts for modern shiny replacements because "tenor players don't care?"
Could go on, but you get my drift.
PG
pgroff - Posted - 09/01/2008: 11:23:40
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Buddy Watcher has a pre-war B&D #2 tenor on ebay item 120298974076 (I'd link but it doesn't work for me). A new Ome Professional tenor is valued at about $4,000. For value, playability and sound I wonder which is superior?
Beezaboy
That does look like a beautiful banjo, and I'm sure any tenor player would love to have it! Nothing I wrote was intended to dissuade you or anyone from bidding on it, and I hope Mr. Wachter gets a great price for it. Sadly for sellers, many tenors of this superior quality seem to sell for much less than they should be worth. Good luck and best wishes,
Paul
John Field - Posted - 09/01/2008: 11:26:29
Well I've played an Ome Professional tenor and I own and play an original 1920's B&D Silver Bell no. 1 and IMHO the Ome plays better and sounds better...........
stanger - Posted - 09/01/2008: 12:46:04
Hi, Beez...
The B&D and the Ome are going to sound very close in tone and volume.
One is new, and comes with a warranty, the other doesn't. If the new one develops any problems, or meets an accident, the folks who made it are still around to service the warranty or fix the banjo. The other doesn't.
As to the disagreement over whether a complete replate and refinish hurts the value of a vintage banjo:
Since Mike Halloran's comment and Paul Groff's reply were both generalities, let's stick to generalities.
I've refinished a truck load of old instruments- banjos, guitars, electric guitars, mandolins, fiddles, you name it.
In general, the entire arguement of keeping a vintage instrument is largely a bleed-over from the guitar world and comes mostly from 2-3 decades ago. In the late 70's, when the vintage market really started heating up, there were lots of old instruments that were suddenly transformed from being just old stuff into high-dollar collectibles. Many of these were poorly and amateurly re-finished by early owners as they accumulated wear and tear from being played heavily and from lack of care. It was very common to see instruments with Homer Formby poly varnishes crudely brushed on over the original lacquer or varnish. So many, that I started to call them Forby'd.
These amateur-done refinishes were obvious to everyone, and did reduce the value, simply because they looked ugly.
These bad finishes did reduce the value substantially, especially early on, when very few finishers knew what was used pre-war, or how it was applied. Very much of finishing was a lost art that had to be re-learned. Now, after 30 years of study, re-discovery, and a higher level of professional expertise, things are different. A pro can accurately duplicate vintage distressing (wear and tear) and lacquer checking (natural aging) to any degree wanted by the customer. This can be done so well that instrument appraisers, except for a very few and very expert ones, often can never tell the difference.
And the differences today are indeed very hard to detect, because a good refinisher knows how to use the same materials, applied in the same way, as in the past. There are still many modern materials- lacquers, varnishes, and stains- which are essentially the same formulas that were used 80 years ago. Stains are the only material that are somewhat hard to find in the vintage formulas, because most of them are very poisonous and hazardous in use. But the new stains are very much more accurate in duplicating vintage colors than they used to be, even as far back as only 10 years ago. It's easy to duplicate old colors with new stains, but requires expertise and experience.
The fact that I've found is most of the people who have given me business say they want a banjo to stay as close to beat-up as possible, but really want one that looks like it was never played. We all would like to find that dead mint treasure, but they are increasingly harder to come by with each passing year, because they're played, often hard, when they're found, and get dinged up, just like they were back in the day.
A quality refinish and replate done by good professionals no longer affects vintage prices like it once did. The major dealers all do some degree of refinishing routinely now, in-house or by contract. Plating amounts to extremely thin coatings, and re-plating gives a decaying banjo decades more of use, as does a complete refinish.
Professional players use their instruments much more than amateurs, and often prefer to get them back to like new condition, because they will put heavy use on them. Amateurs play less often, and in much more controlled circumstances, so more of them prefer to keep an old banjo looking closer to beat up.
Most players, pro or amateur, don't mind moderate wear. But the widely held perception that an old banjo with finish that is generall worn off or is failing is more valuable in this condition is largely a myth.
All of the above comments are generalities. The preferences are very individual, and vary widely in degree, no matter what kind of banjo, or player, is talked about. It also varies widely as to what instrument is discussed, and what country is discussed.
Right now, the biggest bunch of players who want old looking instruments are young electric guitar players. They're willing to pay a lot extra for brand new guitars that look like they have been played carelessly for decades. Many older pro rockers also buy new road guitars that look like their old vintage outfits, beat up to the same degree, so they can leave their valuable old stuff at home. In this market, the detail and expertise in aging and distressing is astonishingly good.
regards,
Stanger
The pen is mightier than the pigs.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/01/2008: 17:39:27
Of course, given the two instruments in question, I'd take the B&D at $2500 or even $3000 over the Ome at $4000. I can do a lot with the extra kilobuck.
Bill
jims38134 - Posted - 09/01/2008: 18:53:38
The look of the original pure silver finish on a B&D SB #2 is a much more lustrous finish than the nickel plated #1s. With the "nickel/silver" refinish, what we have now is a SB #1 with a carved heel and pearl buttons. Would have been nicer if it was re-plated back to the original pure silver. Still a nice piece, but would have been nice if it was still original.
Jim
Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/01/2008: 20:38:09
On the other hand, if Wachter's selling it as a player, the pure silver plating can be an issue because of the unending maintenance. That said, I agree--it just doesn't look quite "right" in the photos.
Bill
mikehalloran - Posted - 09/02/2008: 07:32:57
I remember the first silver plated Silver Bell I ever saw. It looked so damned sexy. Made my chrome plated Bacon "B" look so plain by comparison -- which it was.
>Of course, given the two instruments in question, I'd take the B&D at $2500 or even $3000 over the Ome at $4000. I can do a lot with the extra kilobuck.<
I knew that many Silver Bells were silver plated but I didn't know which models. If it has the wrong plating, it loses a lot of collector value no matter how nice it is. If I was in the market, I would bid up to my comfort level. I am with Bill on this one.
Mike Halloran
stanger - Posted - 09/02/2008: 11:27:34
Right one, Mike...
The silver is very sexy, and it's very high maintenance, too.
I wonder if there are other silver plated banjos of other makes... the only one I've ever seen that wasn't a B&D was an Epiphone Recording DeLuxe.That model was typically gold plated, and it's always made me wonder if the silver was an option or a custom order.
regards,
Stanger
The pen is mightier than the pigs.
John Field - Posted - 09/02/2008: 12:49:20
I've seen and played an original silver plated SB no. 2 five string banjo.......should have bought it when I had the chance.......
diarmaid - Posted - 09/02/2008: 15:49:38
quote:
Originally posted by rexhunt
Replating won't hurt the collectors value for tenor players. Tenor and plectrum players care more about appearance than originality.
Rex
i dont know why you would think that.
a lot of tenor and plectrum players care about originality at least as much as the 5 string players do...(often more so) theres probably a lot less tenors that have been refinished/replated or had the rim cut for different tonerings or have the tuners and even the headstock/inlays removed for use on a non original neck by tenor/plectrum players than there have by 5 string players
www.banjomafia.com check it out!
rexhunt - Posted - 09/02/2008: 16:00:00
quote:
Originally posted by pgroff
quote:
Originally posted by rexhunt
Replating won't hurt the collectors value for tenor players. Tenor and plectrum players care more about appearance than originality.
Rex
Rex,
Speak for yourself, if you are a tenor player ..... What you write is not true of all of us.
Paul
My apologies Paul, that was quite a generalization. Still, there is a thriving market for restored 4 string banjos. My best tenor, a Vega Soloist, is in pretty rough shape and is probably worth more to a 5 string player for a conversion Tubaphone pot. It might be worth more as a tenor if it were restored. My main 5 string banjo, a '28 Gibson TB-4 started life as a tenor and I have all the original parts (minus the bridge) to bring it back. I have often thought of refinishing the resonator which had quite a bit of belt buckle rash when I got it, but it's a player and I'd rather not worry about it.
Rex
NYCJazz - Posted - 09/02/2008: 18:36:18
I play an unrestored Silver Bell Plectrum #3, and my teacher (Cynthia Sayer) plays an OME. I prefer the sound of my banjo, but the OME is a delight to play!
I was lucky to find an instrument that was set up beautifully... it obviously has many thousands of hours of playing on it. I wouldn't think of restoring it.
IMHO, there is nothing like the sound of a properly set up Silver Bell.
Friends don''t let friends convert jazz banjos.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/02/2008: 20:19:04
quote:
Originally posted by pgroff
quote:
Originally posted by rexhunt
Replating won't hurt the collectors value for tenor players. Tenor and plectrum players care more about appearance than originality.
Rex
Rex,
Speak for yourself, if you are a tenor player ..... What you write is not true of all of us.
Paul
And fools will often walk in, where angels fear to tread....
Rex is describing the past and current market -- from a vantage point which
you haven't achieved, yet, Paul.
In general, he is correct. In general, you are not.
Now... if you want to discuss how things are GOING to be, in 40 years --
we'll all be glad to help fantasize about how we hope that MIGHT be.
I get in trouble all the time, complaining about unnecessary and over-done
restoration jobs, on 4-strings. Unfortunately, it happens with great regularity.
(So who's buying them? Aliens?)
I also get in trouble when somebody proudly tells me that their heavily-worn
and severely ravaged instrument is "all original". And that's OK -- "because
appearance doesn't matter."
Two extreme points of view -- and neither one is particularly valid, or useful.
(Except in very rare cases.)
And speaking of the future... Maybe, if we're all lucky -- I'll be in a better
mood, in the morning...
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
tenorbanjoguy - Posted - 09/02/2008: 21:16:43
The playability on the OME is wonderful. My Dad's Silverbell Montana has been restored and plays well but not as nice. Can't speak to sound as my OME is a standard Jazz model. As a player, I would want the OME first (price aside) for playability and reliability, but there is nothing like playing a "real deal" Silverbell!
Prior to my mandolin interests I would have restored any banjo in a heartbeat! However, now I have this Vega Vox III plectrum and I really appreciate the fact that its 77 years are well documented! :) Maybe I have "matured?" :)
Beeza - the fact that it belonged to Buddy would have some significance for me. That is a sweet piece!!
Edited by - tenorbanjoguy on 09/02/2008 21:18:05
pgroff - Posted - 09/02/2008: 23:53:50
quote:
Originally posted by BrittDLD1
quote:
Originally posted by pgroff
[quote]Originally posted by rexhunt
Replating won't hurt the collectors value for tenor players. Tenor and plectrum players care more about appearance than originality.
Rex
Rex,
Speak for yourself, if you are a tenor player ..... What you write is not true of all of us.
Paul
And fools will often walk in, where angels fear to tread....
Rex is describing the past and current market -- from a vantage point which
you haven't achieved, yet, Paul.
In general, he is correct. In general, you are not.
BrittDLD1,
Thanks for your input, but he didn't write "in general." And from evidence in this thread alone, exactly what I wrote in my original reply (as you quoted) is exactly true.
Can I ask whether you meant that I am a fool, holding my views and therefore writing a reply objecting to rexhunt's very broad assertion, or whether you think that "tenor players in general" are fools to over-restore vintage instruments?
This ambiguity is one illustration of the importance of writing exactly what you mean and what you know. I will never match your years of experience with great banjos, but I do know what I (and my acquaintances) value, and I would like to push back against what I believe has become a dated prejudice.
I also note that several other tenor players have now added their views to this thread, that they prefer originality to (at least some kinds of) restoration. Many of us who are actively buying instruments at present appreciate quality, playability, sound, and originality. The owner of an old beat up instrument who wants to restore it as he or she chooses gets to do that, but it is another question how much another (probably younger) person will someday want to pay for it. Just as in the housing market, a lot of owners pay big bucks for customization to their taste that may not increase value to a later buyer.... or may even reduce value.
With great respect,
Paul
Edited by - pgroff on 09/03/2008 00:06:44
pgroff - Posted - 09/02/2008: 23:59:04
Ed,
In case you missed this:
quote:
Originally posted by diarmaid
quote:
Originally posted by rexhunt
Replating won't hurt the collectors value for tenor players. Tenor and plectrum players care more about appearance than originality.
Rex
i dont know why you would think that.
a lot of tenor and plectrum players care about originality at least as much as the 5 string players do...(often more so) theres probably a lot less tenors that have been refinished/replated or had the rim cut for different tonerings or have the tuners and even the headstock/inlays removed for use on a non original neck by tenor/plectrum players than there have by 5 string players
www.banjomafia.com check it out!
Edited by - pgroff on 09/03/2008 00:01:01
pgroff - Posted - 09/02/2008: 23:59:24
Ed,
In case you missed this:
[quote]Originally posted by NYCJazz
I play an unrestored Silver Bell Plectrum #3 [...]
I was lucky to find an instrument that was set up beautifully... it obviously has many thousands of hours of playing on it. I wouldn't think of restoring it.
Edited by - pgroff on 09/03/2008 00:03:25
pgroff - Posted - 09/03/2008: 00:00:19
Ed,
In case you missed this:
quote:
Originally posted by tenorbanjoguy
Prior to my mandolin interests I would have restored any banjo in a heartbeat! However, now I have this Vega Vox III plectrum and I really appreciate the fact that its 77 years are well documented! :) Maybe I have "matured?" :)
Edited by - pgroff on 09/03/2008 00:02:08
beezaboy - Posted - 09/03/2008: 13:06:14
Well, there is no consensus (a surprise for BHO 
) But, it seems that there are many who vouch for the Ome for playability and sound. AND, the ebay Silver Bell met it's reserve at about $2,900 many days before auction end. Perhaps tenor players don't give a hoot about complete originality after all. OR, because of this banjo's provinance it will fetch a higher price that a similar one not owned by a star. Anyway, as I read this thread the Ome wins by a nose in a photo finish?
Beezaboy
diarmaid - Posted - 09/03/2008: 15:22:20
buying this particular banjo from Buddy Wachter is similar to a bluegrass banjo player buying a banjo Earl Scruggs or Bela Fleck owned...irrespective of any restoration done, the silver bell has more history than the ome (on top of the 80 or more years old it is, the greatest tenor banjo player alive is selling it!) and likely sounds easily as good and most probably better than the ome....the omes silverspun tonerings are basically a modernised version of the silver bells.
given a choice i'd buy any original b & d silver bell anyday before an ome...if you look around at what most tenor banjo players are actually playing you may be surprised (the tenor players probably wont be surprised in the slightest) to see that its predominantly vintage tenors...there seems to be many widely held misconceptions about tenors by 5 string players...i am continually surprised to see that theres a common misconception in america that irish banjo players prefer 17 fret tenors...thats complete rubbish as you would find out very quickly in ireland.
although ive not been living as long as some others on this website ive been around a fair few vintage tenors (the predominant banjos in ireland). theres a lot of vintage tenors and restored ones are a very rare sight...but then were more worried about the banjos tone than whatever Earl or Bela are playing...and we do very little modification to banjos compared to the bluegrass boys...and as the tone is what were most worried about (and not what someone else plays) about theres not much demand or desire for prewar gibsons.
beezaboy - Posted - 09/03/2008: 16:52:48
Ah, but its good to hear from across the pond, Diarmaid. Somewhere in this thread we should have mentioned the new Clareen banjos. BTW there is a Clareen on ebay right this moment!! Clareen vs. Silver Bell???
Beezaboy
Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/03/2008: 20:34:10
One reason for the number of vintage tenors is that they are far more available than vintage 5-strings, and many are in decent condition. As to modifications of banjos--it is for the tone, or perception of it. What differs is the basis of desirable tone. I don't know what Irish tenor players consider that to be. Whatever it is Diarmaid, I gather from your post it's much less elusive than the "pre-war sound" so sought after by bluegrass players. Is he sound of an Essex Paragon the most desired, or does it vary?
Bill
mikehalloran - Posted - 09/03/2008: 21:36:01
>I wonder if there are other silver plated banjos of other makes<
The trapdoor 4 series Gibsons were generally silver-plated although a few were apparently chrome plated (or am I thinking of later 4s?). I have seen silver plated SS Sewarts but don't know the models well enough to remember which ones.
OME offers silver, chrome and gold plating as an option on most of their banjos.
Mike Halloran
diarmaid - Posted - 09/04/2008: 00:07:47
Beezaboy, the Clareens sound lovely, exceptionally durable and wel made though I'd still go for a silver bell if there was a choice between them.
Bill over here thankfully we worry more about practicing the banjo to develop good tone and technique than buying some magic elusive banjo/ tonering/rim/tailpiece/bridge/tuners that'll make us sound like someone else (or their banjo) when we pretty much want to sound like ourselves....as for desirable tone its mainly (though not exclusively) archtops were after the epiphone recordings, clifford essex paragons, paramounts, stromborgs, orpheums, b&d silverbells, tubaphones, whyte laydies, windsors, abbotts, levins, also some john greys, (ive probably forgotten a good few but whats important is that its a range of different banjos and personal opinion in sound that are sought after not different ways of trying to make a 5 string flattop 1930's gibson granada from bits of other banjos old and new). of the modern banjos, clareens, dave boyles, and omes and richelieus are sought after.
the point i was trying to make earlier is that i consider it completely ironic when 5 string players say tenor banjo players don't care about originality when the vast majority of vintage tenor players ive seen (and it would probably be as many as most people reading this) have unaltered banjos, sporting nothing more than a new head, bridge and strings....while the majority of vintage 5 string banjo owners have nothing more original left in their banjo than the pot (and a huge number of these, even the pot has been altered irreversibly to accommodate a modern tonering)....if truth be told...tenor banjo players care at least as much (i'd say much more) about originality than others.
pgroff - Posted - 09/04/2008: 04:14:20
diarmaid.
Thank you.
Actually, I am not the spring chicken some might assume. I am also a second-generation tenor player since my Dad plays. I do understand where rexhunt's comment is coming from (and Bill has actually posted similar comments on this forum in the past, if my memory serves). There is a reason that some banjo players in the US are willing to toss off comments like "tenor players want..." In the US there *is* a crowd of tenor players who have given a lot of business to high-end banjo "sparkler-uppers." Sadly, many of this generation have passed away or are not playing as much as they used to. Their taste in cars, hairstyles, etc. might on average be different than mine, and likewise their preference in how they would like a tenor banjo to look, if they were able someday to invest a small fortune in buying their "dream" instrument. God bless them all. I'm glad that some of them have been able to satisfy those dreams and that wonderfully skilled craftspeople have been willing and able to work for them. Just as I'm glad there have been rhinestone cowboys and the tailors who fit them out. This is a tough world and a tough life and pursuing our dreams in music (listening, watching, following the great players, owning an instrument and trying to progress whether we are amateurs or pros) is one of the most beautiful parts of it to me.
Anyway, in the US for some time a lot of money has been highly concentrated in the oldest generations. Young families raising kids who might want to learn to play have very little discretionary income by comparison. True, there is poverty among the senior citizens but also phenomenal wealth. So the consumer choices of the oldest generations can seem more important to instrument dealers and repairmen. Then, except for the interest in Irish traditional music beginning to develop here, few young people have been learning the tenor banjo in the US over the last 40 years. I'm sure I was the only guy my age that I knew in high school or college who could play tenor, and I was a semi pro musician (guitar, piano, etc) who hung with musicians.
So if there is a grain of truth in rexhunt's generalizaion, why did I bother to object? Because there are many, exceptions (as you and other players have made clear in this thread). Because that needs to be understood by 5 string players who often get involved with tenors in various ways, and especially by dealers and flippers who may be making irreversible decisions about instruments based on their judgments on how to maximize resale value. And just to stand up and be recognized -- contrary to exactly what rexhunt wrote, I am a tenor player, buyer, and (budget-cramped) collector who values originality very highly. If no one else felt this way, what he wrote would still be overstated, and I still stand by the accuracy of my reply (and yours, diarmaid).
To re-emphasize another point that I tried to make (and that I think Mike Halloran has implied), in most "collectible" markets, originality eventually comes to carry a high value as the buyers become more knowledgeable. Mike Gregory, in the "Banjo Story" topic, Repair forum, just reminded us about the familiar scene on Antiques Roadshow where the crestfallen owner learns what their refinished furniture *could* have been worth...
Finally, I am still waiting for clarification from Ed to find out exactly who he intended to insult. Remember, no personal attacks on this forum.
Paul
Edited by - pgroff on 09/04/2008 04:35:36
pgroff - Posted - 09/04/2008: 04:46:03
[quote]Originally posted by beezaboy
Well, there is no consensus (a surprise for BHO ) But, it seems that there are many who vouch for the Ome for playability and sound. AND, the ebay Silver Bell met it's reserve at about $2,900 many days before auction end. Perhaps tenor players don't give a hoot about complete originality after all. OR, because of this banjo's provinance it will fetch a higher price that a similar one not owned by a star. Anyway, as I read this thread the Ome wins by a nose in a photo finish?
Beezaboy
Beezaboy,
Well, if you wanted this one I am sorry it has gone higher than some estimates posted here by others.... But I am glad Mr. Wachter will get a good price for it. Even if only 2 bidders really like this piece and are willing to go high for it, that will make this auction interesting to follow.
To answer your question about the "star" factor (and some of the other speculations in this thread), it would be interesting to compare the auction price for a near-mint original of the same model also sold by Mr. Wachter, then a "pre-restoration" beat-up example similar to what this "#2" was, also sold by him -- and then to know how much the restoration cost.
I think we all expect that the new owner of this banjo will be getting a very attractive, great playing, and great sounding historic instrument and that it will be a dream come true.
Paul
Edited by - pgroff on 09/04/2008 04:47:18
mikehalloran - Posted - 09/04/2008: 08:06:15
>To re-emphasize another point that I tried to make (and that I think Mike Halloran has implied), in most "collectible" markets, originality eventually comes to carry a high value as the buyers become more knowledgeable. Mike Gregory, in the "Banjo Story" topic, Repair forum, just reminded us about the familiar scene on Antiques Roadshow where the crestfallen owner learns what their refinished furniture *could* have been worth...<
Agreed. To clarify a bit further, if an instrument is not that collectible, originality is not a factor in the price.
>the ebay Silver Bell met it's reserve at about $2,900 many days before auction end.<
And when it ended, it got $95 over the reserve. Since we know what an OME would go for, someone made out for $1,000 less. I don't mind under-guestimating by $500, not at all.
>I think we all expect that the new owner of this banjo will be getting a very attractive, great playing, and great sounding historic instrument and that it will be a dream come true.<
Exactly. For the rest of us, either we didn't feel like outbidding $2995, didn't have it to bid, would rather spend $3K+ on something else, thought it was over-priced, collect other brands, have no use for a tenor at any price... the list goes on.
Mike Halloran
Edited by - mikehalloran on 09/04/2008 08:09:33
tenorbanjoguy - Posted - 09/04/2008: 10:36:50
I sure wish we could all sit around a table in a coffe shop and talk banjos, what a hoot that would be!! I guess this is as close as we will get. My tastes and preferences have changed over the years and I think mostly with my playing ability. The way an instrument looked, used to carry (still does to an extent) a lot of wieght with me. An old beat up banjo would have not interested me in the least. Now, I focus more on sound and playability. This 1930 Vega Vox needs some work but the shape of the neck and the sound of this thing with a skin head has me pretty gaga! I was hoping to spin it to make a quick buck but I can't. I am not one for vintage instruments in general. There have been some advancements in instrument building (truss rods leap to mind) that make modern instruments easy to live with and they have really learned how to make some very easy players. I guess I love them all and can appreciate there individual characteristics. In the end though, I judge them on how they inspire me to play and sound. In the car business they have a saying "There is an a$$ for every seat." I think that applys to just about anything. Some folks will prefer the vintage instruments for their authentic sound, established collecters market, no depreciation and the mojo inherent in a well seasoned instrument. Then there are folks that love the beautiful new instrument feel. I mean we all know the feeling of bringing home something brand new with the knowledge that we are the first to explore its potential. I guess what I am trying to say in this complete ramble is "It's all good!"
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 09/05/2008: 10:16:25
quote:
Originally posted by pgroff
...Finally, I am still waiting for clarification from Ed to find out exactly who he
intended to insult. Remember, no personal attacks on this forum.
Paul
Paul --
It was not my intent to insult anyone. My opening rhetorical statement was intended
to be amusing. (It obviously failed...)
And I was admitting to being the "fool"... for deciding to "walk in" to what was
obviously becoming a personal rant over a pet peeve. But I felt obliged to express
my own displeasure, at the harsh tone of your rebuke to Rex -- over what was, in
fact, a fundamentally true historical statement.
The fact that you don't agree with that particular statement -- and apparently wish to
change the popular perception of it -- is your prerogative. (And perhaps you are right.
Perhaps changing that popular perception might a good thing to try to do.)
But there are better methods for fostering that agenda, than the way you chose to
express it.
So... I'm sorry that you perceived my opening statement as a personal attack.
But I'm also sorry to see that you would take such offense, at such an obvious
generalized statement, as Rex's.
His statement was reasonable, for describing a well-known trait of the LARGEST
segment of the 4-string market.
And you are right to claim that your particular SEGMENT of the 4-string market
feels differently about that issue.
But let's not lapse into 4-string / 5-string / "other-banjo" bashing, either. I happen
to like ALL types of banjos, and enjoy most styles of banjo playing.
(If it looks like a giant lollipop -- I'm interested in it.)
Be aware that 4-string players were also guilty of chopping, shaving, and converting
5-string necks into 4-string necks -- LONG before the '60s Folk Boom launched a new
demand for 5-strings. (ALL of the banjo "food-groups" have been guilty of this sin.)
I personally know of at least a dozen 5-string banjos (made from 1880 to 1925)
with necks which were chopped and "converted"-- from 5-string to 4-string -- during
the Jazz Craze of the 'Teens and 'Twenties. I have a half-dozen of them in my own
collection. (A few of them are relatively rare examples...)
Remember, this happened LONG before the "Vintage Fretted Instrument Market"
even existed. (Which really only began, in the 1960s.) From the 'Teens through
the '50s, these banjos were just considered old, used instruments -- which people
were simply adapting, for their personal use.
I'm often appalled at some of the things that happens to banjos, through misplaced
good intentions. (I could go on for days with horror stories...) And I have saved
several "important" banjos from being modified, poorly restored, over-restored, or
being parted-out. (And have had to pay premium prices for a few of them, to do that...)
We can't control it. But we can try to educate people about the pros and cons of
modification -- through discussions such as this one. But there's not much to be
gained by arguing the extreme views held at each end of the spectrum.
MOST banjos were originally developed for different purposes -- than what they
are typically used for, today:
•••• The openback Fairbanks Whyte Laydie and Vega Tubaphone 5-strings,
were DEVELOPED primarily for playing Classic fingerstyle -- NOT for playing
Folk or Oldtime traditional music.
They were ADAPTED for Folk and Oldtime music, 50 years later.
•••• The resonated 4-string banjos were DEVELOPED primarily for Jazz Bands,
Dance Orchestras, and Vaudeville -- NOT for Irish-style players.
They were ADAPTED by a few Irish traditional players during the '20's. But I believe
they weren't used extensively until McKenna popularized them, in the 1960's.
(Resonated 4-strings were ALSO adapted for Traditional stringbands, during the
1920s -- and for Western Swing bands, during the 1930s. But many current players
of those musics still seem to ignore that fact -- preferring their own romantic delusions
about rural music.)
And finally...
•••• The resonated 5-string banjo was NOT DEVELOPED for Bluegrass music.
It was ADAPTED for Bluegrass (by some guy named Earl), in the 1940s.
As Forrest Gump would say: "– – IT happens."
Paul, if you feel that over-generalization is the main issue -- it probably would
have been a bit less provocative, to respond to Rex's statement with something
like:
..."I don't believe many players of the Irish tenor banjo would agree with that point
of view."
(A statement which I would also agree with -- and view as basically true, based on
my own experience.)
Now, since I'm a teetotaller... I don't think that getting together, and raising a pint,
is going to work very well. So, how about we just play a few tunes together, sometime,
instead?
(Or, should we just go for Shillelaghs at ten paces -- and get it over with?)
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
pgroff - Posted - 09/05/2008: 11:17:57
Ed,
I had no desire to pick a fight with you or anyone.
rexhunt posted a comment that has been demonstrated to be literally false. If a more general version of his idea (that he did NOT write) might be true, that is not really the point here.
I replied, in precise language that is precisely true as demonstrated in this thread, that his posting was false. Specifically, I objected to his absolute terms, with no qualifiers or consideration of a diversity of views among the group he labeled. I could crudely invite you to "RT*P" but instead I will repeat here "What he wrote is not true of all of us." This is the statement of mine you somehow claim to be "not right, in general." Would you consider it "right, in general" to claim that North Americans elected Bush? How do you reckon Canadians would respond?
But furthermore, your reply quoted me, then floated a reference to fools, then addressed me with an attempt to contradict me, claiming (from my perspective) that black is white.
Sorry if I took offense. If you meant none, the hatchet is buried.
Again, with great respect for all you know and all I have learned from you,
Paul
Edited to add: I actually have great tolerance for whatever banjo players would like to do with their instruments. You are lucky that original banjos are much more common than truly original fine concertinas, so there is less danger that important historical information is being lost forever due to hasty attempts at reworking of antique instruments for modern purposes. God bless all the players with their different tastes, and the dealers, restorers and modifiers who are trying to make a living helping musicians. But please can there be an end to the crude and inaccurate prejudice often expressed in absolute terms that "tenor banjo players don't care about originality." How can it be inappropriate for me (and the other tenor players who have weighed in) to object to this mischaracterization of our views?
PG
Edited by - pgroff on 09/05/2008 12:11:59
diarmaid - Posted - 09/05/2008: 13:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by BrittDLD1
•••• The resonated 4-string banjos were DEVELOPED primarily for Jazz Bands,
Dance Orchestras, and Vaudeville -- NOT for Irish-style players.
They were ADAPTED by a few Irish traditional players during the '20's. But I believe
they weren't used extensively until McKenna popularized them, in the 1960's.
(Resonated 4-strings were ALSO adapted for Traditional stringbands, during the
1920s -- and for Western Swing bands, during the 1930s. But many current players
of those musics still seem to ignore that fact -- preferring their own romantic delusions
about rural music.)
And finally...
•••• The resonated 5-string banjo was NOT DEVELOPED for Bluegrass music.
It was ADAPTED for Bluegrass (by some guy named Earl), in the 1940s.
Ed not wanting to get off topic...some of what you say is correct, though i should clarify that there were many accomplished tenor banjo players throughout ireland and beyond playing irish music long before Barney McKenna....he was one of (though not the first) to be recorded playing the tenor banjo in irish music...(he played a large part in popularising the gdae tuning) though there were several recordings of older musicians from as far back as the 1920s playing irish music on the tenor banjo including Mike Flanagan, Michael Gaffney and Neil Nolan.
the banjo was played throughout all over ireland long before the folk revival that occured in the 1960's...after the 60s there was a lot more people playing all the instruments that are now widespread in irish music.
Ed Im not sure that jazz tenor banjo players would make up the
" the LARGEST segment of the 4-string market. "
anymore either.
www.banjomafia.com check it out!
Bill Rogers - Posted - 09/06/2008: 11:21:22
Re: Ed's comment about modifying 5-strings to 4-strings, my main player (Essex Concert Grand) was attacked by a plectrum player who hacked off the 5th string edge. It was restored by the late Mario Martello (q.v.) but still bears the scar. I also once bought and resold a high-end Vega tenor with parts from at least two different models and likely three different banjos. Everything was stock Vega, but sure didn't match. As Ed noted, both these banjos were clearly modified well before the collectors' market and the quest for originality hit the banjo world.
Bill
