Prewar00 - Posted - 08/18/2008:  19:46:35

I'm looking for some specifics on Ralph Stanley's classic archtop setup, which seem hard to find. The most you ever hear is to tighten the head to the point of breaking, but obviously there is more to it.

What head type and tension (anyone ever get to tap tune a note for it)?
What string gauge?
What is the tailpiece height off the head?
Any idea on the bridge - type, height, thickness, etc. ?

Thanks for the help.

Kentucky5 - Posted - 08/18/2008:  19:53:51

I can only answer 2 of the questions, for type of head use the slick non-frosted type of head they have a brighter more piercing sound.

About the tailpiece from what I have observed the tailpiece is as low as it can go without touching the head. Hope this helps

"You can see the fields of bluegrass where I roam"

carteru93 - Posted - 08/18/2008:  20:07:10

Agreed with Kentucky5's suggestions, also add a light, thin bridge, light strings, and from what I observed, picks pretty straight and close to the bridge when picking. The tightest I ever got my head without breaking is a B, ALMOST a C.

____________________________________

Blaylock Bear Tracks maple

ridgysalamander - Posted - 08/20/2008:  01:42:06

ralph stanley uses a remo weather king head,
standard 5/8" bridge,
presto style tailpiece "off the head a little bit",
string height above 12th fret is 1/8",
strings are joe morrell light gauge.
finger picks are nationals , twisted and bent, and a plastic thumbs pick.

from "masters of the 5-string banjo by tony trischka and pete wernick (1988) p 38-41.

Richie Dotson - Posted - 08/20/2008:  04:15:56

If you want your banjo to sound like Ralph Stanley's banjo, let Ralph play it.

Richie Dotson
Craftsman, Teacher
http:www.BanjoResource.com
(757) 613-9627

gottasmilealot - Posted - 08/20/2008:  05:19:02

Steve Sparkman speaks of the setup in his DVD on playing Stanley style banjo. It's worth a look.

Keith

Banjo Hangout Rules and Guidelines.

banjo13 - Posted - 08/23/2008:  11:18:07

Steve uses a first quality head (non frosted) old factory floor bridge (5/8's i think), d'adario J60's (light plus) like my brother said above, the tailpiece is slammed as low as it can go

Tyler Greene
"The roots of the present lie deep in the past"

Tyri - Posted - 08/23/2008:  16:10:05

Hey there, Joseph. Howdy.

Normally, I don't participate in the 5-er -related stuff, but I watched a you-tube yesterday that showed him planting his finger behind the foot of the bridge, and digging in a bit, especially on his lead bars.

Just tried to find it again- sorry, no joy.

Every once in a while, I get a request for "sharp enough to shave a gnats a$$", just not so much over the past 20 years or so. Honestly, I don't much miss the "brittle" sound. And I'm really loving the dynamic range of our new studio sub-sub-woofies.

Y'all have fun!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri''s favorite Scot

d_pert - Posted - 09/22/2008:  11:54:29

As a big ‘Ralph head’ I recently acquired a 1979 Stanleytone. I’ve been acutely concerned with getting my money’s worth. I’ve come up with some conclusions of my own about setup and other factors that affect the sound, for what they’re worth, not getting into the style/technique of playing Ralphesque...

For my Stanleytone head and bridge, I called the maker, Frank Neat, in Kentucky. He said he’d make anything anyone asks for, but the way Ralph likes the Stanleytone and the way every standard Stanleytone has always shipped is with a 5-Star (that’s the brand name), ‘smooth white’ head (not a Remo) and a standard 5/8 bridge made a wee bit thinner than usual, and by choosing a little denser piece of stock than usual. So, I ordered a Stanleytone standard bridge (slotted for light-gauge strings) from Frank, and the recommended head. After setting up from scratch with these, head pretty tight, and a presto tailpiece in a conventional position (not crazy tight down) and conventional string action, the instrument took a quantum leap toward the Ralph sound. It had a Remo-style unbranded, frosted head that sounded okay, just not what I wanted. Oh, and strings, Steve Sparkman told me at some festival that he used, and Ralph used light gauge strings. I settled a few years ago on GHS PF170 ‘Regular Light’ (.009 .011 .013 .020W .009) which I have carried over to my Stanleytone. Light strings are super important to getting the Ralph sound too – and also make all that bending and pulling off a bit easier.

I explored the full range of head tensions including the ridiculous, and settled at a position about a 1/4 turn under the point where the nasal/plastic/papery/pinginess began to overtake the main bodytone of the sound. As with life in general I guess, nothing works optimally when it’s pushed to ‘the point of breaking’, other than for a very short-sighted or sensational outcome. I can say the same applies to a Stanleytone!

The best advice I can give to is: let this particular instrument design do its job without any additional pushing or forcing it. Treat it like a regular banjo. It’s already designed to deliver the higher, more cutting, bell-tone ring, in and of itself – let it do that for you. Let it work for you and learn how to pull the sounds that you want out of it.

The all-maple archtop will already sound different to, say, a walnut/mahogany/maple flathead, without needing to be forced in any respect. I think I recognize the ‘crank her hard’ recommendations as coming from players who have an instrument that has a fundamentally different flavour to it, and are trying to FORCE the Ralph/archtop sound out of it – which is what I did for about three years, causing all sorts of symptoms to my playing and how I felt about it. This goes for playing silly-close to the bridge too – if you want the heightened ‘puck’ sound to be really there at the head of each note, the Stanleytone will do this, setup as I’ve described, by being respectfully played as an ordinary banjo.

Also, I’ve heard ‘just play close to the bridge’ prescribed as the simple all-in-one method of sounding like Ralph on any banjo, but I can honestly say I don't think this is good advice at all. Practically any banjo player can get a more articulated, pointed, pingy, pucky sound simply by moving toward the bridge (like 0.75-1.25”) for sure. However, this really kills tone. Ralph had a variety of amazing tones.

I’ve recently been practicing through a condenser microphone and straight out of a couple of cheap amplified stage (personal) floor monitors in my practice room. Honestly, this is how I’ve come closest to achieving an amazing Ralphesque sound, like the recordings in my head. And, here’s the Clincher: it can only happen by playing lighter and NOT super-close to the bridge, instead say 1.5-1.75”. All my previous hard-ass banging away way too close to the bridge was just an overcompensation to make the sound of my flathead, walnut/maple/rosewood instrument reflected off my wall sound like a 1969 Columbia recording or a ‘Classic Stanley’ PA speakers outdoor concert – ain’t gonna happen. So big note to self: Relax. With the microphone up close, and the sound amplified back at me like a festival PA system, WAY LESS WORK and no extreme setup stuff is required to get that Ralph sound from a Stanleytone. I can only hope when I play live gigs, that the stage monitors and more importantly, the house PA will do somthing similar!

So much of the gap I’ve perceived between my own sound and the sound of the recorded pros I’ve taken inspiration from is the recording and PA systems involved. This may sound technical and ‘impure’, but for sure, 99% of what most banjo players have as the reference in their heads is wildly different than what it would be acoustically. So much of the epic, robust, rich, launching into a break that we all like to hear is RECORDING PRODUCTION or microphone/PA system, and just plain amplification... This is not to reduce the role of a master player, just to draw attention to the technical delivery system through which we hear almost every pro we look up to and how major and advantage the support of those systems is.

To my ears and based on having seen many photographs and videos, Ralph used a number of different banjos over the years. By listening to all the different eras and circumstances in the recorded record, I can hear many ranges in sound and what would seem to be different head tensions and setup approaches. And of course, each sample comes through the lens of different recording techniques, mic proximities, and perhaps the most influential-yet-rarely-discussed factor: plate reverb. There’s the jackhammer, M16 sound from some of the live bootleg recordings at small festivals in the late 1960’s. There’s the much more lush, bronzy, but still highly articulate archtop sound that characterizes the later ‘mountain soul’ era through the 70’s-80’s. Then there’s the really early stuff with Carter where it can sound downright tubby compared to later Ralph, or the ‘all round Ralph’ sound in the King & Starday Instrumentals. The 90s+ Sparkman sound is like extreme Ralph, (Ralph on steroids ;) and to me only represents one area of the Ralph spectrum. I’ve met Steve a couple times and watched him with Ralph up close (like 12 feet) a number of times.

What I’ve learned about the Stanley style, by watching the clinch Mt. Boys up close a few times since 2004 has to do with rhythm and attitude, and a whole style thing that sits much closer to old-time grooves, and the role (not roll) of the banjo in the overall sound ... but that gets into the Stanley style and technique! Yikes! I may never be ready to try saying anything about that!

So many songs - So little time

Derek Pert

Edited by - d_pert on 09/23/2008 10:06:48

Retropicker - Posted - 09/22/2008:  14:41:55

That's a fine post, Derek.
Thanks

____Keep the hay in Bluegrass__________________________

d_pert - Posted - 09/22/2008:  17:03:26

Hi - thanks.

I just posted three (3) MP3s to my Music section, numbered 1-3 to demostrate the sound I'm getting from my Sanleytone with the setup as described. I also made three versions, one dry (no effects), and one with some simple compression and some plate reverb. Check out the difference between these - this stuff is what a lot of people are hearing in classic recordings and wondering why they can't get thier instrument to sound so 'full', being hard on themselves, spending zillions n exotic tweaks etc... Note, I'm not a recording engineer - I just whipped these up in 15 minutes MacGyver style.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Retropicker

That's a fine post, Derek.
Thanks

____Keep the hay in Bluegrass__________________________

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skybolt - Posted - 09/22/2008:  19:01:45

Thanks Derek. Your pickin is nice and clean...

Jerry

d_pert - Posted - 09/23/2008:  08:21:36

Thanks ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by skybolt

Thanks Derek. Your pickin is nice and clean...

Jerry

---

Chris Quinn - Posted - 09/23/2008:  08:51:54

Derek,

In typical fashion, you have nailed it! You are a prime example of what can result when someone willingly commits to learning how to play the dang banjo instead of sitting at a computer talking about it! You set goals and went after them. You have become a really solid banjo player within 8 years of laying the thumb to the five! Well done.

I have seen Derek's band, "Switchback Road", many times and I think they are one of the brightest new lights on the Ontario bluegrass scene; thanks largely to Derek's initiative and contagious passion for the music.

Anyone who wants to learn more about the style of Ralph Stanley would be wise to consider Derek's thoughts on the matter.

Chris Quinn

www.foggyhogtownboys.com

d_pert - Posted - 09/23/2008:  09:02:05

Geez Chris! <blush> <blush> Thanks a bunch ... only problem is, now that you said that publically it forces me to work even harder to truly deserve such a lofty recommendation! Aaaa! <blush> <smile>
Thanks again.

So many songs - So little time

Derek Pert

d_pert - Posted - 09/23/2008:  09:23:19

And by the way, "Ralph on Steroids" ... Chris Quinn gets the credit for making up that phrase. Love that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Quinn

Derek,

In typical fashion, you have nailed it! You are a prime example of what can result when someone willingly commits to learning how to play the dang banjo instead of sitting at a computer talking about it! You set goals and went after them. You have become a really solid banjo player within 8 years of laying the thumb to the five! Well done.

I have seen Derek's band, "Switchback Road", many times and I think they are one of the brightest new lights on the Ontario bluegrass scene; thanks largely to Derek's initiative and contagious passion for the music.

Anyone who wants to learn more about the style of Ralph Stanley would be wise to consider Derek's thoughts on the matter.

Chris Quinn

www.foggyhogtownboys.com

---

kallekockum - Posted - 09/23/2008:  12:37:11

So that's how that old banjer is supposed to sound like...

Kalle Kockum, Sweden
I wish I was as cool as Levon Helm...

stanleytone - Posted - 09/23/2008:  14:24:25

i took the thin 5/8 bridge off my stanleytone and put on an 11/16 snuffy II bridge.
what i got was an archtop sound with a better bottom end and more volume,and still has that killer stanley sound
i alos backed off the head just slightly.many people tell me its one of the best sounding archtops they have heard.

Couchie - Posted - 09/23/2008:  18:40:20

Dereck Pert

"a whole style thing that sits much closer to old-time grooves"

Amen, this is old time music. It has history and a ton of emotion. Getting your banjo set up well is the first step, and there is a lot of good advice in this thread.

The next step is getting into the music. This is the most important step. It takes honesty and commitment to the music to get good results. You can hear it when Ralph sings and plays. This is pure emotion and honesty, nothing less will do.

Ralph always said that he will "give it all I got". Some of the best advice I ever heard. His results are obvious. We can try to do the same. It's important to our playing and important to the music.

Don.

O==''=#

http://www.doncouchie.com

Edited by - Couchie on 09/23/2008 18:44:53

pfunk - Posted - 09/23/2008:  18:58:48

As an additional note, Frank Neat also sells the strings that are used on the Stanleytones. Sizes 10-11-13-20-10 and they are made by GHS for him. $5.00 a pack. Also on my Stanleytone the tailpiece was/is cranked all the way down where it almost touches the head.

Prewar00 - Posted - 09/24/2008:  05:47:15

Derek -

Thanks for the tips and the music clips. You are right about the lighter touch. If you watch the Appalshop documentary on Ralph Stanley, you can see in a few scenes (check out the bus trips specifically) just how light he plays, almost dancing his fingertips on top of the strings instead of really digging in there. The banjo does the work. I had a shop teacher in Junior High that used to repeat over and over "let the saw do the work!!" to us young 'ins as we cut wood scraps for our projects...

pfunk -

I assume you are talking about a Kerschner TP on your banjo, right? Is it the old style "short" Kerschner, or the newer Prucha version which is longer and has the modified end to thread the strings through?

d_pert - Posted - 09/24/2008:  07:16:46

Hi pfunk...

Well, well, although 9 vs 10 is not a big difference, I'm interested to try this special combination you say Frank puts on the Stanleytones.

Funny ... Frank is a master builder to the top banjo players, and he just does what you ask for. He doesn't much try to offer ideas and pull specs out of you because he expects people to already know everything they want, and have thier own firmly held convictions about what they think is right ... probably from dealing with career players for so many years. He never mentioned that speial guaging when I called twice to enquire about getting my Stanleytone 'into Stanleytone standard' shape and ordered the bridge etc.

Thanks for the tip.

-Derek

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfunk

As an additional note, Frank Neat also sells the strings that are used on the Stanleytones. Sizes 10-11-13-20-10 and they are made by GHS for him. $5.00 a pack. Also on my Stanleytone the tailpiece was/is cranked all the way down where it almost touches the head.

---

GMAN - Posted - 09/24/2008:  07:33:56

Great pickin Derick. More people will want archtops after hearing your
sound files.

country frank - Posted - 09/24/2008:  07:34:36

Derek, you came that far in 8 years!!!

Inspirational, simply wonderful picking.

Proud Union Man

Regards from London.

http://www.myspace.com/thehangingropesuk

pfunk - Posted - 09/24/2008:  07:45:29

I was curious as while back so I sent him an email asking a size and brand so I could replace them back to the way it sounded when I got it and he filled me in on the information on his strings. I tried 9's and didn't like it so that's why I contacted him about it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by d_pert

Hi pfunk...

Well, well, although 9 vs 10 is not a big difference, I'm interested to try this special combination you say Frank puts on the Stanleytones.

Funny ... Frank is a master builder to the top banjo players, and he just does what you ask for. He doesn't much try to offer ideas and pull specs out of you because he expects people to already know everything they want, and have thier own firmly held convictions about what they think is right ... probably from dealing with career players for so many years. He never mentioned that speial guaging when I called twice to enquire about getting my Stanleytone 'into Stanleytone standard' shape and ordered the bridge etc.

Thanks for the tip.

-Derek

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfunk

As an additional note, Frank Neat also sells the strings that are used on the Stanleytones. Sizes 10-11-13-20-10 and they are made by GHS for him. $5.00 a pack. Also on my Stanleytone the tailpiece was/is cranked all the way down where it almost touches the head.

---

So many songs - So little time

Derek Pert

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Prewar00 - Posted - 09/24/2008:  10:53:16

The difference between 9 and 10 gauge strings on the 1st and 5th is not that big. If you break the 9's too often move up to 9.5, if you break those, move up to 10. To my ear the banjo sounds better balanced with 10's on the outside edges when you've got a 13 gauge middle string so that's what I use.