A Rich Taylor - Posted - 07/21/2008:  21:09:45

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There is good timing...and then there is GREAT timing...

My belief is that this is where the men and boys are truly seperated. Having GREAT timing is as rare as hens teeth....and it seems the ones who have the timing I admire most, Ron Block and Adam Steffey, are very aware of the amount of work it takes to grab it. Constant metronome use is a common trait between both of these guys.

I hear so many really fine banjo players...full of ideas...and taste...who haven't paid their dues in the timing department. Maybe it is that they are unaware....

I think that a steadfast pursuit of GREAT timing is a noble objective for us all....and more important than the licks.....Licks don't impress me much, but GREAT timing sure does.....because it is so unique.

Even those of us with less than GREAT timing...or those with little musical understanding at all...somehow can hear the difference between superstellar timing...and "good" timing...

I think there are a bunch of really good musicians out there who are at the doorway of GREAT timing...if they would just strategically practice improving it....

I'm watching Adam Steffey's mando instruction DVD....if that guy can find the humility to sit down with a metronome for an hour per day....nobody else has a good excuse for not....

regards, bud

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Edited by - A Rich Taylor on 07/21/2008 21:15:22

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/21/2008:  22:01:41

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I agree that timing is huge. But different people define "great timing" very differently. Personally, I do not consider evenly-spaced notes to be great timing. But too often, that's what results from "constant metronome use."

Give me great bouncy timing any day. What Earl calls the "shuffle feel." What Bill Keith calls the "Chattanooga" rhythm. So what if, at fast tempos, it tends to disappear (because the spaces between the notes have gotten too short to be heard). It's what makes bluegrass music swing.

A Rich Taylor - Posted - 07/21/2008:  22:08:32

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Yes Rich, I like that bounce too....but if one does not have control over where the notes go...then that bounce is like putting lipstick on a sow...

regards, bud

10gauge - Posted - 07/21/2008:  22:20:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by A Rich Taylor

Yes Rich, I like that bounce too....but if one does not have control over where the notes go...then that bounce is like putting lipstick on a sow...

regards, bud

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You know sows like to look pretty sometimes too

If at first you don''t succeed...Do it the way your wife told you to.

A Rich Taylor - Posted - 07/21/2008:  22:31:25

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but she's still a sow.....:)

Pjotor - Posted - 07/21/2008:  22:52:22

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Could someone please explain "bounce"? I'm not familiar with the English term.

eagleisland - Posted - 07/22/2008:  04:15:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pjotor

Could someone please explain "bounce"? I'm not familiar with the English term.

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Paging Ron Block! There's no one better to explain it than him... how to put this into words...?

Until such time as he shows up, might I offer the way he plays Cluck Ol' Hen from the AKUS live disc as a brilliant reference piece for the study of bounce (indeed, it was this song that enabled my poor teacher to drill the concept into my own limited head).

Listen to the rhythm that he plays the song with. Listen to the way that it swings. Listen to the emphasis on certain notes that produces the swing. If you can play it against a metronome, so much the better - you'll hear that certain notes are just ever so slightly ahead of (and behind) the beat set by the metronome.

That's bounce. It's also a woefully inadequate explanation, but it's the best I can summon 1/4 cup of coffee into the day.



eagleisland

"I was halfway to Old Kentucky when the drugs began to kick in." - Hunter S. Monroe

Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/22/2008:  06:11:29

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Perhaps the term we're searching for here is "syncopation". That's when the notes aren't equally spaced, but they all get played in the measure where they belong. Syncopation is a major element of what we perceive as "drive", another one of those nebulous intangibles.

In the B part of Ron Block's second break of "Cluck Old Hen" from the live Alison record, he does some fancy syncopated up-the-neck work with choked notes. He brings a lead-guitar mentality to the banjo, and it makes for some pretty wild sounding results. I bet he can tear up a Stratocaster.

A whipporwill''s call is just a reminder,
Pretty girls have hearts made of stone.

flange5st - Posted - 07/22/2008:  06:50:39

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.......I believe it was Bill Monroe that said, " you don't need to play fast as much as you need to play quickly".........I would suggest that you look in a hymn book at all the different " meters" that a musical phrase can fall into a timing signiture................if you can comprehend the phraseology, then that becomes the difference between good, compotent timing and great expressive timing.......peace

.........lay the thumb to the five string.........

RonBlock - Posted - 07/22/2008:  07:09:03

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I believe in daily drum machine use.

Evenly spaced notes is good timing.

Swinging the notes (in a shuffle, making the pairs of eighth notes sound like a triplet minus the middle note) in time to a metronome is good timing as well. There are different percentages of swing. 50%-50% is even eighths. 66.6%-33.3% is the shuffle. There are other percentages.

In my own early playing there was a lot of bounce, esp on Everytime You Say Goodbye. Later, when Dan Tyminski joined the band, straighter eighth notes were required to make everything mesh. I prefer the straighter eighths with subtle bounce. Much of what people think of as bounce in my playing, as in the live version of Cluck, is really syncopation, where I am playing chords and notes a quarter or eighth note ahead of where they "ought" to be.

Bounce can be and often is overdone. I prefer straighter eighths, mostly.

Mick Goodrick calls metronome use "Checking in with Time Headquarters." If we can't at all play with a metronome or drum machine without getting off course, we're going to be a hindrance to a band or jam rather than a help. Mick says, "Some people have said that if you play with a metronome your 'time will get stiff.' I wonder about that statement. Is it possible that some people 'project'? (You know, putting things inside them outside of themselves or seeing things that way...) I think it is possible; we all do it. I've known many people who work with metronomes who don't sound stiff to me. (But maybe I'm projecting! Could be. But what am I projecting?)

And he continues: "I think a metronome is as good as the person using it. If we can learn to use it to tune into 'Time Headquarters,' we can learn much. The infinitely perfectable experiences of regularly recurring periodicity. (Certainly, there's a better way to say that!)"

"In reading great literature I become a thousand men and yet remain myself...I see with a myriad eyes, but it is still I who see...Here, as in worship, in love, in moral action, and in knowing, I transcend myself; and am never more myself than when I do."
C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

www.RonBlock.com

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/22/2008:  07:14:22

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Bounce is where each "& note" (for want of a better phrase) in a 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-& roll, for example, doesn't fall evenly between the 1-2-3-4 notes, but is actually closer to the 1-2-3-4 note which follows it. So it's more like 1-&2-&3-&4-&1. In other words, rather than dum-dum-dum-dum-dum ..., it's DUM-deDUM-deDUM-deDUM .... [Think of the rhythm of a heartbeat. Bounce is pretty much the same.]

As I undestand it, syncopation is a little different. That's where melody notes fall in unexpected places. So, for example, if a B melody note naturally falls on the first beat of a measure, but instead of starting that measure with that B (e.g., 2nd string open), you were to play a roll that starts on the 5th string, or 3rd string open -- and pick the 2nd string open as the second note of the roll -- thereby delaying that melody note a half-beat, that's syncopation.

Bud, a metronome set to click four times per measure will tell you whether your 1-2-3-4 timing is correct. It will not, however, tell you whether your "& notes" -- your bounce notes -- are timed correctly. Only your ear can tell you that.

pauwac - Posted - 07/22/2008:  07:36:49

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Good timing is what will make other musicians want to play with you. There's nothing more frustrating than playing with someone who doesn't have it.

Pauwac

stevejay - Posted - 07/22/2008:  07:39:54

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I think a metronome is good for practicing rolls and new ideas such as chord changes, but SOMEWHAT agree the metronome playing is a bit stiff. My foot is a metronome too, so is slightly rocking your body as you play. Would you agree some people might need a metronome more than others?

eagleisland - Posted - 07/22/2008:  07:53:20

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Ron, thank you for showing up on this thread - and your perfectly cogent explanation!! (I happily stand corrected).

eagleisland

"I was halfway to Old Kentucky when the drugs began to kick in." - Hunter S. Monroe

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Edited by - eagleisland on 07/22/2008 07:54:23

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/22/2008:  08:14:23

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A discussion of proper timing raises this related question: To what extent has the prevalence, and resulting adherence, to tablature in recent years changed (some might say, corrupted) our sense of what is good banjo timing? Tablature writers space the eight notes of a roll evenly -- whether they are played that way or not. Anyone learning from tab (particularly someone trained to learn from sheet music) would be more likely to play the song this way, as that's how it's written. Of all the aspects of the "tab learning" debate, this is the one that seems most overlooked: that tab often misrepresents the timing of the music. It may be the single greatest contributor to our current (perhaps, skewed) perception of good timing.

Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/22/2008:  08:24:09

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quote:

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[i]Originally posted by Rich Weill
As I undestand it, syncopation is a little different. That's where melody notes fall in unexpected places. So, for example, if a B melody note naturally falls on the first beat of a measure, but instead of starting that measure with that B (e.g., 2nd string open), you were to play a roll that starts on the 5th string, or 3rd string open -- and pick the 2nd string open as the second note of the roll -- thereby delaying that melody note a half-beat, that's syncopation.

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No, I don't think that's right. As I understand it, syncopation is about the spacing of notes. You can move melody notes around without altering the spacing of those notes at all... so I don't really see what that has to do with it. Ron Block was talking about the spacing of notes when he said this:

"...syncopation, where I am playing chords and notes a quarter or eighth note ahead of where they "ought" to be."

Now, if you want to play a variation on the melody AND change the spacing of the notes, then you'd have syncopated timing.


A whipporwill''s call is just a reminder,
Pretty girls have hearts made of stone.

banjoken - Posted - 07/22/2008:  08:40:02

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There have been some comments that playing with a metronome is harmful to bounce. I don't see why, unless within 2/4 timing you set it to beat 8 times in a measure.

John.Matters - Posted - 07/22/2008:  08:48:19

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I read an interview with Bela Fleck awhile back, and when asked what it was he practiced these days, he replied with something like "playing with my metronome".

I agree with banjoken...I don't see how having a stronger and/or more refined sense of timing could be harmful to ones playing

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/22/2008:  09:07:04

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quote:

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Originally posted by Flying Eagle

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

As I undestand it, syncopation is a little different. That's where melody notes fall in unexpected places. So, for example, if a B melody note naturally falls on the first beat of a measure, but instead of starting that measure with that B (e.g., 2nd string open), you were to play a roll that starts on the 5th string, or 3rd string open -- and pick the 2nd string open as the second note of the roll -- thereby delaying that melody note a half-beat, that's syncopation.

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No, I don't think that's right. As I understand it, syncopation is about the spacing of notes. You can move melody notes around without altering the spacing of those notes at all... so I don't really see what that has to do with it. Ron Block was talking about the spacing of notes when he said this:

"...syncopation, where I am playing chords and notes a quarter or eighth note ahead of where they "ought" to be."

Now, if you want to play a variation on the melody AND change the spacing of the notes, then you'd have syncopated timing.

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Perhaps Ron can clear up what he meant. But if he calls "playing chords and notes a quarter or eighth note ahead of where they 'ought' to be" syncopation, then I think he's saying exactly what I'm saying. After all, moving a note "a quarter ... note ahead" is moving it 2 roll notes ahead. That's not just changing the "spacing of the notes."

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/22/2008:  09:12:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjoken

There have been some comments that playing with a metronome is harmful to bounce. I don't see why, unless within 2/4 timing you set it to beat 8 times in a measure.

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For 2/4 timing, you can't even set it to beat 4 times in a measure, and maintain your bounce. 2/4 timing has 4 eighth notes per measure. If you set the metronome to play those 4 eighth notes evenly, then you've lost your bounce.

banjoken - Posted - 07/22/2008:  09:45:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoken

There have been some comments that playing with a metronome is harmful to bounce. I don't see why, unless within 2/4 timing you set it to beat 8 times in a measure.

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For 2/4 timing, you can't even set it to beat 4 times in a measure, and maintain your bounce. 2/4 timing has 4 eighth notes per measure. If you set the metronome to play those 4 eighth notes evenly, then you've lost your bounce.

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Exactly what I said, except I was using 16th notes in my example of how not to do it. It is best to have 2 beats per measure.

Some mentioned playing ahead of the beat. The way I figure it, if there is no beat than you cannot play ahead of it. If everyone played ahead of the beat then there would be a new beat.

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Edited by - banjoken on 07/22/2008 09:53:42

steve davis - Posted - 07/22/2008:  09:50:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

A discussion of proper timing raises this related question: To what extent has the prevalence, and resulting adherence, to tablature in recent years changed (some might say, corrupted) our sense of what is good banjo timing? Tablature writers space the eight notes of a roll evenly -- whether they are played that way or not. Anyone learning from tab (particularly someone trained to learn from sheet music) would be more likely to play the song this way, as that's how it's written. Of all the aspects of the "tab learning" debate, this is the one that seems most overlooked: that tab often misrepresents the timing of the music. It may be the single greatest contributor to our current (perhaps, skewed) perception of good timing.

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This is why it's so important to only use tab to help you learn the song initially and then put your own timing and ornamentation into it.

concerning gardens...weed ''em and reap

Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/22/2008:  09:53:51

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quote:

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Perhaps Ron can clear up what he meant. But if he calls "playing chords and notes a quarter or eighth note ahead of where they 'ought' to be" syncopation, then I think he's saying exactly what I'm saying. After all, moving a note "a quarter ... note ahead" is moving it 2 roll notes ahead. That's not just changing the "spacing of the notes."

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With all due respect, that's exactly what it means, unless we have a semantical difference going on here. My point is that it doesn't matter what the note is - melody note, filler note, whatever. Syncopation is about the timing of the notes, not the specific notes themselves. Perhaps you should go back to what RB said and I quoted - he didn't specify what type of note or chord. Would you say that playing a B chord where you would normally expect a C chord is the definition of syncopation? If so, then ok... suit yourself. Stick a feather in your cap and call it macaroni.

A whipporwill''s call is just a reminder,
Pretty girls have hearts made of stone.

Prof - Posted - 07/22/2008:  10:14:28

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My interpretation of syncopation is simply playing notes (any note) on something other than the expected beat, whether by introducing rests, or extending notes. For example, instead of playing 2 eighth notes followed by a quarter note, you might play 2 eighth notes, an eighth rest, and another eighth note). You take up the same musical space, but in a different pattern than "normal." Just my 2 cents thrown into the pot...

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Let''s face it, some people have a way with words...
other people...uhhh...ohhh...not have way." Steve Martin

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/22/2008:  10:27:13

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quote:

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Originally posted by Flying Eagle

... it doesn't matter what the note is - melody note, filler note, whatever. Syncopation is about the timing of the notes, not the specific notes themselves.

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But if syncopation is also about the unexpected timing of notes, then it is most evident when melody notes are played on unexpected beats. The melody is what the listener most readily recognizes. The melody is where the listener has the clearest expectations. Nothing will prick the listener's ear more than when a key melody note is moved to a different beat. Fill notes are just that: fill. They reinforce the chord and the rhythm. But generally, the listener is indifferent to the order in which two consecutive fill notes are played.

A Rich Taylor - Posted - 07/22/2008:  11:43:24

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Now...if Adam Steffey were to chime in....my day would be complete.......

regards, bud

Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/22/2008:  12:08:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by A Rich Taylor

Now...if Adam Steffey were to chime in....my day would be complete.......

regards, bud

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Try the Mandolin Cafe. It's a Hangout for mando players. Maybe he's a member there.


A whipporwill''s call is just a reminder,
Pretty girls have hearts made of stone.

Cornflake - Posted - 07/22/2008:  12:11:21

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Recently I've been watching the Flatt and Scruggs Martha White videos. I am so impressed with Earl's timing. At first listen his banjo sounds like a machine gun, but then it's not. There's a hint of bounce, and it's so polished. And he doesn't mince around with mushy, pansy notes. Every note is punched out. I remember Alan Munde saying that Earl is somehow connected to a cosmic time clock. These videos have helped me see what Alan meant.

Cornflake--Cereal banjo player

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/22/2008:  12:11:59

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Kudos to Ron on this.. A couple of years ago when more of the "gurus" participated regularly this came up with a description of "BIG" and and "LITTLE" time... That is to say that big time falls on the beat (metronome time) and little time comes between the beat (those other notes) and these do change/vary... It is this that makes the difference between the sound of pickers, how they use the "little " time.. An example was to study Earl, the master at this..

That topic is probably lost or archived by now, but It was well presented in depth and was easily understood by most ...The best explanation, I've heard..

KL

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Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 07/22/2008 12:31:15

Richard Dress - Posted - 07/22/2008:  13:24:51

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When 'bounce' means the same as jazz 8th notes, it is referring to the space between the notes. Normally, every space is the same as the space before. With bounce you have two different spacings. Overall they add up to the same value, but individually they are 'long' 'short' 'long' 'short' in a half measure. Pretty confusing, isn't it?

GHohwald - Posted - 07/22/2008:  14:00:01

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Regarding timing,. This has always been a big focus and subject in my quest to play and teach the banjo. People that helped me greatly were Emory Gordy Jr, Sandy Rothman, Billy McKinley,and most recently Curtis Jones. About 3 years ago I started playing with and working doing clinics with Curtis. Because of his extensive playing and working with most of the top names in bluegrass and his reputation as not only a musician and composer I asked him what his take was on great timing. This included questions about who to listen to regarding timing. The people in his opinion who have excellent timing are Allison Brown, JD Crowe, Earl Scruugs,Ron Block, Adam Steffey, Dan Timinski, Mark O’Connor and Missy Raines He also mentioned the Flatt and Scruggs Carneige Hall Album, as an example of a band playing with exceptional timing. He felt that Allison Krauss and Union Station re at the top of the timing pyramid.. Union Station traditionally uses a metronome or prerecorded rhythm tracks when they practice.

The other concept of good timing used by Jazz guitarists is called note spacing. This means that each note that you play has the same space betwseen them. A metronome was mentioned several times during this discussion. The key to good note spacing lies in the ability to play the notes between the beats perfectly.

For example, If you are playing against a metronome set for 100, the Bass will typically play a note every time the metronome clicks. The banjo playing 16th notes will play 4 notes for every click or 8 notes per measure. The metronome beat will fall on the 1st and 5th notes of the banjo. Notes 2,3,4,6,7 and 8 have no reference. Many banjoist play in perfect time on notes 1 and 5 but not so perfectly for the rest of the notes. The other factor that affects good note spacing is the way you strike the string and how long each note sustains. Slower notes are let to sustain more.

The consistant way to achieve great timing is practice with the metronome.

To see Curtis Jones if you are not familiar with him click on the following linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff1hSDnCw9c

Curtis teaches,performs and composes sound track music in the North Georgia area.

quote:

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Originally posted by A Rich Taylor

There is good timing...and then there is GREAT timing...

My belief is that this is where the men and boys are truly seperated. Having GREAT timing is as rare as hens teeth....and it seems the ones who have the timing I admire most, Ron Block and Adam Steffey, are very aware of the amount of work it takes to grab it. Constant metronome use is a common trait between both of these guys.

I hear so many really fine banjo players...full of ideas...and taste...who haven't paid their dues in the timing department. Maybe it is that they are unaware....

I think that a steadfast pursuit of GREAT timing is a noble objective for us all....and more important than the licks.....Licks don't impress me much, but GREAT timing sure does.....because it is so unique.

Even those of us with less than GREAT timing...or those with little musical understanding at all...somehow can hear the difference between superstellar timing...and "good" timing...

I think there are a bunch of really good musicians out there who are at the doorway of GREAT timing...if they would just strategically practice improving it....

I'm watching Adam Steffey's mando instruction DVD....if that guy can find the humility to sit down with a metronome for an hour per day....nobody else has a good excuse for not....

regards, bud

---

Geoff Hohwald
freebanjovideos.com

Trent in WA - Posted - 07/22/2008:  14:33:47

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It might help to think of practicing with a metronome as practicing with another musician who does only one thing, but does it really, really well.

http://www.myspace.com/trentghill

A Rich Taylor - Posted - 07/22/2008:  18:28:31

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If only there were a website where we could comment on Roger Federer's inside out forehand .......and he would chime in with his insight...along with McEnroe, Connors and even Pancho Gonzales...

My timing has always been kinda average....and maybe I'm too old to be taking up the banjo with a strong desire to pursue this timing....but its noticeable that when I take the time to focus on the metronome for an extended period...hrs...days...there is an improvement curve that IS noticable....BUT, once this hard practice subsides....my timing goes back to where it was....kinda of a musical timing equivalent of a Slim-Fast Diet....

This really is hard work...

Regards, bud

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Edited by - A Rich Taylor on 07/22/2008 18:49:00

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/22/2008:  19:00:58

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Not really, just don't make it a biggy, it can prove detremental to your musical efforts as any bad habit.. Once you get the "feel", just relax and play... If your continually thinking, your gonna be messin up!

KL

RonBlock - Posted - 07/22/2008:  20:08:19

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A couple of things:

In Union Station we don't play with a metronome or prerecorded tracks - someone said that mistakenly.

Syncopation doesn't have to do with space between the notes. I meant I like hitting chords before I "ought." Like when I hit the flat 7s and 4 chords of Cluck Old Hen a quarter note early. Or doing a bend in a really weird place, like on the second of the pair of eighth notes.

On tablature - no one can learn feel or timing from looking at tab. That's why I'm adamant about players learning to transcribe for themselves. In learning solos with Amazing Slow Downer or other software, we're getting the feel ingrained into our minds and hearts as we learn the notes.

Because it's about so much more than what notes we play. It's about feel. Groove. Twists and turns. Syncopation. Yanking the feel around so there are moments of unpredictability balanced with the predictability of the regular beat of the music. Groove, feel, twists, tension, release - that's what moves us when we listen to music. And it's something that is learned, at least in my experience, intuitively.

We learn it all by listening - really listening. Soaking up the music. Reading tab just teaches a sequence of notes.
Transcribing - deep listening - helps develop all the really good things in music.







"In reading great literature I become a thousand men and yet remain myself...I see with a myriad eyes, but it is still I who see...Here, as in worship, in love, in moral action, and in knowing, I transcend myself; and am never more myself than when I do."
C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

www.RonBlock.com

jbfivestring - Posted - 07/22/2008:  21:32:51

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As far as playing a head of the beat, I think that's aweird way to describe it. I always said playing on top of the beat. Not necesariily speeding up, just pushing the envelope a little. Listen to Blue Highway "Lonesome Hearted Blues", Shawn Lane is playing what I call on top of the beat. They don't speed up, but it FEELS like he's right on the heels of the bass man. Also, Tim Stafford's "If I had the money I'd ride that train". I don't remember off hand if it was Lane or Steffey on that, but on top of the beat is rippin my face off. Again, not speeding up, but listen to the chop right before the mando backup on (I think) the 2nd verse, then while the mando backs up the dobro chops, then the mando takes over again. I personally can feel a considerable difference between the two different chops. I call it the Carolina Rush, the guys I jam with from Carilina all have it. It's not bad, in fact once I got used to it I prefer it.

To me it's all about the feel, but the timing needs to stay consistent. The music should breath a little or I think it feels stagnant and lifeless. I like what Ron said about "yankn the feel around", the timing shouldn't noticably move, but should feel like it's swaying in the breeze.

I get about 2 hours a day average on the metronome, a lot of it to cinch up spots I notice I'm strugglin with, and a lot of it to expand my speed capabilities. For years I've learned a wealth of knowledge from tab, but I never understood the feel thing til I moved to VA. There are so many great players young and old in this part of the country, it's a very humbling experience.

A Rich Taylor - Posted - 07/22/2008:  21:49:24

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quote:

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Originally posted by RonBlock
It's about feel. Groove. Twists and turns. Syncopation. Yanking the feel around so there are moments of unpredictability balanced with the predictability of the regular beat of the music. Groove, feel, twists, tension, release - that's what moves us when we listen to music.

www.RonBlock.com

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These are very strong competencies that, along with the harmony vocals, draw many to have a respect and even love for high-end bluegrass. It seems that complete control (as humanly possible) over the placement of notes is a fundamental for playing competently and credibly with the fun things you mention.

Mathematics gets really fun and deep when we move into Calculus, differential equations and linear algebra. Our ability to problem solve becomes great. Everything we learned before (basic math, geometry, trigonometry, algebra......etc) now makes sense and is applicable to our world. If we don't have our times tables locked in, we won't be able to explore those fun, high-end problems with much accuracy or credibility. I guess this is my point, that timing is not the end all ....but it sure is an important fundamental ....and worth some intense practice....in order to really do the things you mention....well.

Of all the abilities of all the great players and even legends in bluegrass music, great timing is one thing that is really, really unique.

Control over those notes.....very respectable....

Regards, bud

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Edited by - A Rich Taylor on 07/22/2008 21:59:33

Pjotor - Posted - 07/22/2008:  23:51:00

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I seemed to have opened a big can of worms by asking for a definition of bounce...

From the posts above, I think that a bouncy playing means to playing the first eighth note in a beat slightly longer than the next. Could this be an adequate explanation? I refrain from defining percentages at this stage.

richardbailey - Posted - 07/23/2008:  01:10:53

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My 2 cents. Timing is something that everyone playing for a living think
s about constantly...cause you eat on it. Through the years I have heard my favorite takes on it.
Ron Block's is one of the best.
Here's a few others I'll share.
Butch Robins said if you think of time as a clock, then 12:00 is perfect. Sometimes you want to play at 11:59, or, sometimes the situation needs 12:01.
The point is, you have to know where 12:00 is.
My take on what Roland White said about Flatt and Scruggs was, the music swells and ebbs, but it all moves together.
I guess my way of thinking is, a metrenome does'nt lie. Practice with that. After you know where one is, then make your choices to where the notes lay.
My way of thinking is that meter is an absolute, and your choices in note placement defines your timing.
I'm new to typing, and Ron's post inspired me, it's great.
Richard Bailey

Pjotor - Posted - 07/23/2008:  02:03:17

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Spot on Richardbailey! You can play a bit off the beat, but you have to know where the beat is. Playing off the beat to achieve just the right expression takes lots of both technique and mental awareness.

Reminds of a few years ago, when the pianist in my choir performed the absolutely most perfect ritardando (slowdown) at the end of a piece I had ever heard. And I've played various instruments for almost thirty years now. Somehow he got it just right.

Flying Eagle - Posted - 07/23/2008:  04:52:58

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quote:

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Syncopation doesn't have to do with space between the notes. I meant I like hitting chords before I "ought." Like when I hit the flat 7s and 4 chords of Cluck Old Hen a quarter note early.
www.RonBlock.com

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Ron, I appreciate you taking your time to respond on these issues. It's an honor to have a musician of your caliber here. In regards to syncopation, it sounds to me like we have a semantical difference. If you play a note a quarter note early, or "before you ought", doesn't that impact the "space" between that note and the next? That was what I was talking about.

Anyway, who cares man. We're swallowing a camel and straining at a gnat on this. To me, good timing and being able to play with syncopation, bounce, (or whatever) is largely instinctive; either you've got it or you don't.

A whipporwill''s call is just a reminder,
Pretty girls have hearts made of stone.

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/23/2008:  06:19:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pjotor

From the posts above, I think that a bouncy playing means to playing the first eighth note in a beat slightly longer than the next. Could this be an adequate explanation?

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It's true that the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th beats (or really half-beats) are longer than the 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th. But it's also that each of those shorter beats is coupled with the longer beat that follows -- like the deDUM, deDUM of a heartbeat.

hemack - Posted - 07/23/2008:  10:14:51

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This probably should be directed to another category but it's my first posting so PLEASE forgive.......

Please HELP this confused 84 year old beginner understand something about a metronome! In this thread Rich wrote"2/4 timing has 4 eighth notes per measure. If you set the metronome to play those 4 eighth notes evenly" and banjoken wrote "I don't see why, unless within 2/4 timing you set it to beat 8 times in a measure" and banjoken wrote "It is best to have 2 beats per measure."

My questions is - how does one 'set' the metronome for a certain number of beats (of 8th notes or 16th notes or 1/4 notes) per measure? The 'nome I use just simply 'clicks' continuously regardless of whatever setting of BPM I make.

stringbreaker - Posted - 07/23/2008:  11:37:30

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When i hear somene that spends hours with a metronome most of the time they sound mechanical and dull.

banjoken - Posted - 07/23/2008:  11:42:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by stringbreaker

When i hear somene that spends hours with a metronome most of the time they sound mechanical and dull.

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Guess that depends on one's technique.

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Edited by - banjoken on 07/23/2008 11:54:40

banjoken - Posted - 07/23/2008:  11:53:21

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Hi hemack, Welcome to the banjo hangout!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since you can set the metronome to beat at different rates per minute you have complete control over the speed that you want to play. Of course this setting also depends how many of these clicks are used in one measure. If you play a song in 2/4 time and play with the metronomes click only "once per measure" at 20 BPM, for instance play only on the 1 of a measure counted 1,e,&,a,2,e,&,a, the song will sound the same speed if the metronome was set to 40 BPM and you played along with the metronome at the 1 and the 2. You could also set the metronome at 160 BPM and play one note per click. The speed of the song will still remain the same, but you will now be playing all the notes with the metronome. There will be no bounce or swing since the metronome is not forgiving at all. I like to set the metronome to click only on the foot taps, the one and the two beats which is the place that the base predominantly plays. This gives you the same feel as playing in a band and it allows a little bounce and or swing in your playing.

Prof - Posted - 07/23/2008:  12:01:16

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quote:

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My questions is - how does one 'set' the metronome for a certain number of beats (of 8th notes or 16th notes or 1/4 notes) per measure? The 'nome I use just simply 'clicks' continuously regardless of whatever setting of BPM I make.

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Let me see if I can help you, hemack. FIrst off, WELCOME!!! I'm not sure if I've read your question correctly, but here goes:

In the 2/4 time signature there are 2 beats per measure, and a quarter note gets one beat (that's a given). Metronome settings are in beats per MINUTE (bpm), regardless of what time signature you're playing in. For a particular speed of a song, say if it's usually played at 100 beats per minute, set the metronome to 100 bpm, and play the notes as written, whether it be eighth notes, quarter notes or whatever. Rolls are generally played at 4 notes per beat, so you're really playing 16th notes (quarter note divided by 4 = 1/16th note). I may be going off in the wrong direction for you, so I hope I haven't confused you further! This thread has become pretty convoluted for a seemingly simple initial post! In a nutshell, your metronome couldn't care less what time signature you're playing in, it will just keep clicking away to a preset beat, as you say!

Looks like banjoken beat me to your reply, and may have done a better job of explaining!

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Let''s face it, some people have a way with words...
other people...uhhh...ohhh...not have way." Steve Martin

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Edited by - Prof on 07/23/2008 12:03:43

cthetford - Posted - 07/23/2008:  12:06:16

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pjotor

Could someone please explain "bounce"? I'm not familiar with the English term.

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My teacher has explained it as as a snare drum feel... (let's see if this makes any sense)

tsh-TA-ta-t tsh-Ta-ta-t

There the down beat is actually the 2nd syllable and the off beat is the 6th. There are both rhythmic (spacing) and dynamic (volume) differences in each note that is played. TAB is broken in to measures that start with the down beat. My teacher actually teaches all licks and songs in phrases that beginning on the "and" before the downbeat. For me, this really helps me to feel the proper timing (now playing it reliably is a completely different thing!).

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Edited by - cthetford on 07/23/2008 12:09:55

RonBlock - Posted - 07/23/2008:  12:31:52

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I looked up the definition of syncopation to clarify, and it means to "displace the beats or accents in (music or a rhythm) so that strong beats become weak and vice versa : syncopated dance music."

So here the notes are going along, let's say I'm having a great night and they're evenly spaced with good timing, and bam, a quarter note before the band hits the 4 chord on Cluck Old Hen I hit the 4. Like this:

3------2-------0---------2------|-------------2---------0----
---------------------------1------|-------1--------------------
----------------------------------|----------------------------
----------------------------------|-----------------------------
-------0------------------0------|---0-------------0---------

S........W........S............W...........S..........W............S etc

The band actually hits the downbeat (or strong beat) on the first beat of the next measure - but I hit the 4 on the weak beat of the preceding measure.

That's syncopation. It has less to do with the "space between the notes" (John Hartford's term about J.D. Crowe's playing) and more to do with the beat the note is placed on. My timing may be good or bad (not evenly spaced, whether spaced with straight eighths or with bouncy or swung eighths) and I can still syncopate, though without good timing syncopation might sound lame.

The regular way of Cluck in that spot is this:

3------2-------0---------0------|-------------2---------0----
---------------------------0------|-------1--------------------
----------------------------------|----------------------------
----------------------------------|-----------------------------
-------0------------------0------|---0-------------0---------

You can see I don't hit the 4 chord early - it's the melody there. But in spots I jump the gun on the 4 because it feels good.

On metronomes/drum machines
I've spent literally thousands of hours in my life playing with a drum machine or metronome. I highly recommend it, though I've said before there are other things just as important. Playing with records. Playing with other people. Playing by yourself, with nothing but your own inner sense of time.

But I play with the drum machine most of all.

"In reading great literature I become a thousand men and yet remain myself...I see with a myriad eyes, but it is still I who see...Here, as in worship, in love, in moral action, and in knowing, I transcend myself; and am never more myself than when I do."
C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

www.RonBlock.com

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Edited by - RonBlock on 07/23/2008 12:40:42