wannabanjo - Posted - 01/06/2008:  20:32:41

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I'm determined to sing (in key) when I play, so I've enlisted the help of a local guitar/voice teacher. HIs first advice was that I have to capo up to match my voice. He wants me at the 5th fret (C)! That just seems crazy to me. Patick Costello says to train the voice to match the key. At the same time, Mike Iverson puts 'capo to voice' on his tabs.

Anyone capo up to suit their voice?

Stev187 - Posted - 01/06/2008:  20:55:35

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U Need This:

http://elderly.com/videos/items/300-DVD253.htm

Cathy Fink's Singing With the Banjo is a great DVD that tackles this very issue.

In my experience, you need to capo or re-tune. Just this evening I tuned my fretless down a whole step to F for a song I am working on. It's like that old line: "I'm goin' where the weather suits my clothes." Get into a key that suits your voice, unless you're playing in a group (in which case you can sing a harmony part that does match your voice).

"Tain your voice to match the key" seems like an implausable suggestion to me. I take my lead from Cathy Fink, who plays the banjo and sings all the time. She's a list member here (and has a few more Grammys than that other guy).

;-)



Steve
Flint, Michigan [USA]

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Edited by - Stev187 on 01/06/2008 20:57:36

chip arnold - Posted - 01/06/2008:  20:56:09

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If we could " train the voice to match the key" we'd all be able to sing opera. You can stretch your voice.....probably more than you think you can.....but you can strain it too. Everyone, even those with a great range, sing in keys appropriate to their voice. In traditional banjo/fiddle music, you will come across lots and lots of OT fiddle tunes which have a line or two of lyrics but whose main purpose is to be dance tunes. These are nearly always done in whatever key is traditional for the tune. You sing it there or don't sing. But there are also a ton of songs and they're meant for singing. Do them where your voice works best.

Your "guitar/voice teacher" isn't an Old Time banjo picker. If he was he might suggest that you learn the various tunings common in OT banjo and tune to the most workable one rather than capoing. Most folks would tune to one of the C tunings to sing and play in that key. You can play the necessary chords out of G tuning and yes, you can capo to the 5th fret. In both cases, you'll lose much of the essence of Old Time banjo.

Most big, hard core, festival style, Old Time jams don't have much singing going on because of the retuning the banjos and fiddles have to do to change keys. These jams are great fun and pickers love them. But the downside is that the singing that was once so common is falling away. Small jams and especially small jams among friends with a purpose are the perfect place to sing and keep the old songs alive. The old songs came about in those circumstances to begin with. Big, loud jams are all about the instrumental side of things. Small, intimate jams can be about both.

**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

crsb - Posted - 01/06/2008:  21:03:24

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I take it your a baritone? Learn to play in the key of C. You can do it out of G tuning, gDGBD. Drop C tuning, gCGBD. Double C tuning, gCGCD. Or open C Tuning gCGCE. The problem with alternate tunings is people get bored or tired of the banjo player retuning all the time. The way around retuning is either have more than one banjo or have D tuners. If you want to play up the neck it gets harder learning all the tunings and chords etc. Most Old time players retune and mostly use drop C tuning and mountain minor tuning. Patrick Costello and Bela Fleck don't retune and stay in standard G tuning. John Hartford tuned down to E, eBEG#B, using heavier strings. You can also use nylon gut strings to tune down to E. Remember bluegrass is the high lonesome sound so most singers were tenors and the banjo players customarily were baritones singing harmony. A couple of baritone singers to listen to are John Hartford, Mike Iverson, Bill Staines and Mike Clooney. Some singers like David Holt have a broader range and can sing up high and down low.

Have your instructor find your voice range. If you have the melody line for a song ask him to show you how to find what key it should be for your voice. Bill Evans parking lot picker book has the melody line for the songs so you can find your proper range.

Good luck,

crsb

jdog - Posted - 01/06/2008:  21:27:40

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I love Patrick's lessons. Some here do not. I think if he said that, he meant within reason. He wants to instill flexibility in playing in diffferent keys out of G tuning. I assume he may have meant adjust the key on the banjo and your voice to come together in some happy medium. Or, it could be I'm out of my mind!

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 01/06/2008:  22:30:55

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I think you need to sing songs where you are comfortable and if others are playing with you where they are comfortable regardless of what key a song was written. As long you are enjoying the song it does not matter what key a song is sung. A song needs to sound good and sung with the emotion the song deserves from the singers mind. All notes are good notes

Banjo Wes Lassiter

All things excellent are difficult as they are rare

Spinoza

Stev187 - Posted - 01/06/2008:  23:29:48

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

I think you need to sing songs where you are comfortable and if others are playing with you where they are comfortable regardless of what key a song was written.

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Well said. I think this is an important distinction between "songs" and "tunes." In old-time, we are constantly making a big deal about which tunes are "A" tunes, or "D" tunes, etc. When I was new to OT music, this baffled me. "Why does it matter," I thought. I had played jazz and rock prior to OT, mostly on upright and electric bass. The bands I had played in routinely transposed tunes, sometimes on the fly. Doing so to fit a singer's voice was par for the course.

One big difference is the many variant tunings we use for fiddle and banjo in OT. While it's certainly possible to play "Soldier's Joy" in keys other than D, the banjo and fiddle parts are particularly adapted to that particular tuning. Play "Soldier's Joy" in G and you can get all the notes, but they will be in different places (i.e. the intervals between the strings are different). The same is true for the fiddle. This is why it "matters" what key a particular tune is in.

For me, the difference between a "tune" and a "song" is not the presence or absence of words. After all, "Soldier's Joy" has a number of verses, and they are very fun to sing in an OT jam. But it's a tune. The song "I Truly Understand" (which is the piece I lowered to F for my voice earlier this evening) could be moved around to fit your voice much easier. That also means it's not going to go that way in a jam: you need a regular band who can regroup and do it in F (good luck), or you need to do it solo.

OT musicians have retuned to fit their voices since the very beginning. It's a very standard practice, but it is more common in solo or band settings. Jams or dances would be a different story.

Steve
Flint, Michigan [USA]

Supertone - Posted - 01/07/2008:  00:14:37

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This might be of interest:
http://www.ibluegrass.com/bg_postin...=&p__a=vocal

scruss - Posted - 01/07/2008:  07:47:42

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I think the most famous player who effectively capoed to fit his voice is Pete Seeger. He lengthened the neck of his banjo to get down to his range.

--
http://scruss.com/blog/

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/07/2008:  09:40:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stev187

quote:

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Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

I think you need to sing songs where you are comfortable and if others are playing with you where they are comfortable regardless of what key a song was written.

---

Well said. I think this is an important distinction between "songs" and "tunes." In old-time, we are constantly making a big deal about which tunes are "A" tunes, or "D" tunes, etc. When I was new to OT music, this baffled me. "Why does it matter," I thought. I had played jazz and rock prior to OT, mostly on upright and electric bass. The bands I had played in routinely transposed tunes, sometimes on the fly. Doing so to fit a singer's voice was par for the course.

One big difference is the many variant tunings we use for fiddle and banjo in OT. While it's certainly possible to play "Soldier's Joy" in keys other than D, the banjo and fiddle parts are particularly adapted to that particular tuning. Play "Soldier's Joy" in G and you can get all the notes, but they will be in different places (i.e. the intervals between the strings are different). The same is true for the fiddle. This is why it "matters" what key a particular tune is in.

<<..snip..>>
Steve

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Singers and Banjoists! Throw off the yoke of vocal oppression!!

Tell those damn fiddlers to go get themselves a capo!

And then play in whateverthehell key you want to! Or, let THEM bring along couple extra long-scale/short-scale fiddles -- and re-tune, for a change!

Never seen such a bunch of darn prima donnas in my life!



Rotten-tomato shields engaged...

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/07/2008 09:42:35

ajbadger - Posted - 01/07/2008:  12:07:35

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Capoing to voice or voicing to banjo are two methods with which you should be comfortable. If you play and sing with others, your need to change your voice to be flexible. However, if others are singing to your banjo playing, they are not as likely to change keys to make their voice to your banjo. Learn to do both.

Sincerely,

AJ

http://clawhammerbanjo.wordpress.com/
===============
God must have been referring to the banjo when He said, “Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands,” Psalm 100:1 (KJV), for I do not know any other instrument that is more joyful sounding or any noisier.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/07/2008:  12:27:39

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I think re-tuning is the way to go. It might take a couple minutes, but re-tuning is part of the banjo thing. You can get lots of beautiful sounds out of gCGCD that are different than what gDGBD offers. All tunings have their place. It is well noted that there are variants of the C-tuning also.

Putting a capo at the 5th fret is not a solution IMO. That is more of a guitar/bluegrass mentality, and you're going to end up making your banjo sound like a set of windchimes instead of a banjo. With just two tunings- gDGBD and gCGCD and a capo no higher than the second fret, you are covered for the keys of G, A, C, and D. That means even if you prefer B, E, or F you'll never have to "stretch" your voice by more than one tone. Should be doable.

I agree that the banjo should match the voice not the other way around. The only exception would be as stated above, when the primary focus is a fiddle tune whether it has words or not- assuming you are playing with a fiddler. You wouldn't want to push a fiddler to play "Soldier's Joy" in A-flat for the sake of a couple jig verses.

I am not in a position to comment on your guitar/voice teacher. The only general advice I will give is that those not familiar with the banjo or the genre can take you down the wrong road in a hurry. We've had similar discussions before which bring to light the fact that the banjo approach (unless you want to be a folk-singer) is quite different than the guitar. For the most part, re-tuning (which is integral to traditional banjo-playing) is totally foreign to most guitar-players.

What Stev187 and Chip said!!!

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you'll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

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Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 01/07/2008 12:36:33

Celeste - Posted - 01/07/2008:  12:32:57

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I agree with AJ. Since I play in OT jams where everyone is in the same key for a while, and I don't want everyone to have to retune (or just sit and listen) so that I can sing in another key, I've worked up songs that I can comfortably do in the common jam keys (C, D, G,and A). I save the songs that I do in F, B, or E for performances, song swaps, and smaller groups where key changes are typical.

Celeste

banjoholic - Posted - 01/07/2008:  12:44:04

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I must disagree here. I think it's only logical to adjust your voice to the key. Just slap a capo on your vocal cords, and you're good to go! It'll take a little time to learn to supress the gag reflex, but with a little persistence you'll get there.

jackcr - Posted - 01/08/2008:  13:55:05

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On my list of songs I sing and play on the banjo, I put the name of the tune, followed by the key I'm using and the tuning, for example, "John Henry" E/C, meaning I'm in C tuning but capo up four frets to E to get the best result from my voice. It's easy to forget where my voice works best, so I keep the list.

I also capo my homemade banjos routinely at the second fret and then tune to C or G or another tuning. This allows me to capo down and play in Bb or F, as well as up. I figure it also reduces strain on the necks, which do not have truss rods. I now have a couple of Kyser clamp-style capos, which work even above the fifth fret.

I found that voice exercises given in a workshop by Lorraine Hammond (www.greatacoustics.org) were quite helpful in strengthening my voice and giving it more flexibility. Nonetheless, it seems with me there is often a better key to sing in than the nominal key of the song.

ndlxs - Posted - 01/08/2008:  17:13:22

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I usually figure out the key it works best on banjo first, then I figure out how to sing it. Usually I can do a song in C/D/G/A, the easy keys, but once in a while there will be the F songs (either one of the cumberland gap tunings, or double C capo V).

There is only one song that I have ever tuned down for: Phil Och's great song (touch of politics here..) "I Ain't Marching Anymore" works out really well in double C, but even with my high voice I can't sing that high, so I tune the banjo down 2 frets to a double B flat tuning.

The other song that requires extreme measures is "Days of 49" which works out really well in sawmill, but requires me to capo at the 9th fret for the singer in my band.

Andy Alexis
Sacramento, Calif

wannabanjo - Posted - 01/08/2008:  20:38:47

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Thanks for all the great advice! I'm trying two things:

1. Practicing scales while singing along (probably should have done this long, long ago)
2. Ordered a 5th string capo

I'm going to see if I can compromise somewhere along the 2nd or 3rd fret. If I capo up to the 5th like the teacher suggested, I might as well be playing a Uke!

Mark
http://www.mmwords.com

brokenstrings - Posted - 01/08/2008:  20:50:20

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The average untrained human voice supposedly has a range of 1-1/2 octaves. That means for some songs there's only one key that average singer can sing them in! And it's not the same key for everyone. (This is why "The Star-Spangled Banner" is problematic as a national anthem.)

A guitarist just naturally picks the key to suit his/her voice. Or capoes. For guitar, though, you'e not eternally switching tunings most of the time. It's no big deal to switch keys when your voice moves downward with the years.

Jessy

Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/08/2008:  23:41:11

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Unless you are playing fiddle tunes capo to match the best range for your voice. It is not a good idea to strain your voice trying to sing a song in a key completely wrong for it.
If you add Double C tuning (gCGCD) to your repertoire you can play the Keys of C, D, and E without capoing to the 5th fret. That along with the G, A, and B you have from G tuning gets you most of the keys. From there you can decide if you'll need the Key of F.
Some will suggest Standard C tuning (gCGBD) instead of Double C and that will actually do for 2 keys at once. I personally prefer to have my banjo more in a single key, but a lot of moderately successful players (like Pete Seeger) have done quite okay in that tuning.
Fiddle tunes are different and you do tend to sing in the right key for the fiddle - but the words aren't very important in a fiddle tune, and you could play them for a half hour without a single vocalization.


Rocket Science Banjo, Chapters 1 - 4.1 REVISED is ready now
oldwoodchuckb@yahoo.com
You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g

wannabanjo - Posted - 01/18/2008:  11:58:15

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Just an update for anyone who's in the same boat:

I got one of those Earl's Suspender Capo's for the 5th string from Janet Davis. No drilling, no hammering, and it works like a charm. I slapped it and my regular capo on a couple of frets up (A) and all of a sudden I'm in tune with my banjo (or it's in tune with me)!

After playing in G for so long, it's a little hard to get used to the new sound, but I like that everything I've learned carries over. Besides, I just couldn't reach those low notes in G like I can in A or A#.

Mark
http://www.mmwords.com

lori nitzel - Posted - 01/19/2008:  21:49:04

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Since I've played for about 8 months, I really have no idea what I'm talking about, :) but I've found that when I'm singing solo w/banjo I like to capo at least 4 frets up (to either B or E). I sound better in the higher ranges, I think. I even have a couple of songs where I've capoed at the 6th fret (and tuned the 5th string up) - I guess that is the 'windchime' style (see R.D.'s post) ;-) If you'd like to hear how it sounds w/my voice, 'Waterbound,' on my BHO music page, is capoed at 6.

I really wish I could figure out how to avoid capoing that high (since I don't want to back myself up with windchimes ;-)) but I really don't quite get it yet...



Best,
Lori Nitzel
Madison, WI

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/19/2008:  22:58:23

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Lori
Try a new tuning -- gCGCD. This is called Double C and it is good for the keys of C, D and E without capoing above the 5th fret -- which a lot of us see as a barrier even though it shouldn't be.
With that tuning and G (for G A and B) the only remaining key you are missing is F and that is indeed reachable by capoing at the 5th in Double C tuning.
You don't have to raise the 5th string for each key either - unless you really must have the same sound as you go up.
For example in Double K tuning the 5th string stays at "G" which is "sol" in the scale of C and a very important note in the scale. No matter what the key you can safely use the note "Sol" for the 5th string. For many keys you can use "Mi", and as is under discussion in another thread "Re" can be quite usable. I've also used the note "Ta" or one half tone below "Ti" for some tunes. And you can tune the 5th string down to match the 1st string almost any time - This is great for song accompaniment as it makes the banjo much more of a mid-range instrument - there is no treble drone to cut across the vocal, so the words can be easier to understand.

I'm seeking Dick "Dix" Freeman's banjo recordings to complete my collection - I have plenty of material to trade
Rocket Science Banjo, Chapters 1 - 4.1 REVISED is ready now
oldwoodchuckb@yahoo.com
You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g

lori nitzel - Posted - 01/19/2008:  23:43:38

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Hey Oldwoodchuck, thanks for the suggestions. I do use Double C tuning - when I play/sing in E, I'm capoed in that tuning at the 4th fret, I think...? I prefer that tuning rather than G tuning...just sounds nicer to my ear. :)

I've never thought about tuning the 5th string down in order to make my voice easier to hear- that's a great idea! Thanks so much. :)

Oh, what is Double K tuning?

Best,
Lori Nitzel
Madison, WI

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/20/2008:  03:05:05

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Double K is Double C - A completely un-understandable typo. I don't know how it happened.
I got the down tuning suggestion many years ago from an upstate NY folk singer named George Ward. He sang a whole raft (his pun) of Erie Canal songs and that got him a lot of gigs in places without sound systems. So he would tune his 5th down to D and his lyrics - which were the important part - could be heard better.

I'm seeking Dick "Dix" Freeman's banjo recordings to complete my collection - I have plenty of material to trade
Rocket Science Banjo, Chapters 1 - 4.1 REVISED is ready now
oldwoodchuckb@yahoo.com
You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g

crsb - Posted - 01/20/2008:  17:00:41

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I don't understand the tuning the 5th string to match the first string. That would be a D which is in the scale of C but not in the chord? It does make sense that you don't have the 5th string tension and makes hearing the singer easier. So would one tune the 5th string to E when playing out of double C tuning in a song in the key of C?

crsb

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/21/2008:  00:42:14

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Higher notes carry better and if they are hit smartly can actually overpower the vocal for a lot of listeners. By suppressing the banjo high drone you simply make it somewhat easier to understand the lyrics.

Since I got that tip way back in the early 1970s modern recording styles in pop music have shifted stuff like snare drums to the very front of the mix - and most of the time I can't understand a single word the singer says because of that constant high pitched crashing. Of course pop singers are usually singing the same stuff as they were singing in the 50s when I could understand the words and simply didn't like them. So no one has lost sales to me they would have had in a trice because of this.
Actually that is not true - I've heard a number of recordings by Emmylou Harris, Linda Ronstat and... the singer from 1000 maniacs that I would have bought if the damn drums were not so overpowering. On the other hand getting my business would have probably lost them a few thousand dancers. As Frank Zappa said in the early 90s "We're living in the late disco period". It is as true now as it was then - probably truer.

I'm seeking Dick "Dix" Freeman's banjo recordings to complete my collection - I have plenty of material to trade
Rocket Science Banjo, Chapters 1 - 4.1 REVISED is ready now
oldwoodchuckb@yahoo.com
You can watch the videos for some Rocket Science Banjo subjects starting here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g