Tater Joes and Bushbanjo.net have notation. I did notice there is some variation in chords as you describe.

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Originally posted by Boblamoy

Tater Joes and Bushbanjo.net have notation. I did notice there is some variation in chords as you describe.

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Thanks for locating musical notation with chords. Bush Banjo's chords fit nicely with the original Clyde Davenport recording.  Tater Joes is actually a different tune --  (Rose in the Morning), a John Salyer tune -- unless I'm mistaken and he has another tab.

Tom McKenzie has a nice clawhammer tutorial video for playing the entire tune.  If you've never listened to his playing, you're in for a treat. 

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Originally posted by Boblamoy

Tater Joes and Bushbanjo.net have notation. I did notice there is some variation in chords as you describe.

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Thanks, Bob.  I found the Tater Joes notation under his fiddle tunes, as you suggested.  The chords used by both sources are similar, but not identical as you noted.  The one on top is from the Bush Banjo site under Traditional Tunes P - R and transcription is credited to Darryl D. Bush on April 3, 2022.  The bottom one is from Tater Joes' site and is credited to Mark Wardenburg in Nov. 2019 (links are in the comment above).  Alas, none would agree with my key modulation idea, but that's perfectly fine.  

Hi Janet,

Wonderful arrangement of this fine tune and beautifully played Janet.....Jack

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Originally posted by JanetB

A cheerful, lovely tune is Roses in the Morning by Clyde Davenport. I almost didn’t choose this as a Tune of the Week because of my own issue with interpreting a part.  But here goes anyway.

 

While truly enjoying the tune, the issue needed to be faced, though it's only in a short part and in the guitar accompaniment, not the fiddle. However, my banjo arrangement was affected, and when I heard the source recording the accompanist didn't match my own chord choices. I really don’t expect you to delve as deeply as I did, but you can listen at 14 and 17 seconds in this video when the guitar plays something different than what one may expect.  I was listening for a brief key modulation, as I feel it in the single-note melody.

 

Part of the beauty of old-time music is that right vs. wrong is not necessarily part of our paradigm. Perhaps, like me, you'll prefer one version over another, or perhaps both ways sound good to your ears.

 

The section concerning me doesn’t happen in the A part, where Clyde plays 12 measures -- four measures repeated three times. Rather, it's in the first two measures and again in the fifth and sixth measures of the B part, which has a total of 8 measures -- four measures repeated two times.

 

Perhaps key modulation isn’t the term to use in this situation. For the sake of my rudimentary musical theory knowledge, I use this term. The quick “modulation of keys” I expect to hear isn’t actually expressed by the fiddle, who plays only single notes. What the guitar plays as accompaniment doesn't capture what's in my head. In my clawhammer arrangement you’ll hear me play what that is, using chords which indicate a quick (and charming, to my ears) change of keys. 

 

I’ll try to explain it with chord names.  We’re in the key of G. In the source recording, the B part, with the guitar, goes from the notes of a V chord (D) to the IV chord (C) and then to the I chord (G). If you look at the banjo playing in this clawhammer arrangement by Tom MacKenzie, you’ll see him playing the B part like this with the D chord, followed by the C chord and note from a the open G chord and it indeed matches up with the Clyde Davenport recording. (BTW, I absolutely admire Tom’s banjo playing skills and the tune choices he so adeptly plays.)

 

I instead prefer to hear those first two measures as a modulation from the key of G to the key of D, beginning with a pick-up A chord, then D, A, and D chords and then back again to the original key of G.  What was the V chord (D) chord in the key of G then becomes the I chord (D) and uses its V (A or A7) chord.  This only goes on for two measures and modulates back to the original I (G) chord.  In other words, where I hear the C chord on the guitar, I’d use an A chord which has a C# instead of a C note and that sounds better to me, and then go back to a D chord before the G chord. 

 

There aren’t a lot of on-line examples, and have found only one other recording similar to what I hear in my head in the B part. It’s the mandolin accompanying the fiddle here, after the first time through -- at 1:09 in this Beverly Smith and Carl Jones link.  

 

I don’t recall having come across this issue in past Tunes of the Week, but have heard chords that throw me off in some older source recordings of other tunes and songs and it sounds like someone is playing the “wrong chord.” I recall hearing a story via lessons my husband took from Mike Compton, that Bill Monroe was adamant about his guitarist not going to a IV chord when he wanted him to stay on the I chord to let the mandolin state the melody.  It wasn’t an issue of modulation, but about the sound Monroe wanted, as opposed to what the guitarist thought he should play.

 

In this discussion by Allie Jean, she writes about playing guitar: “But then, check them [the fiddler] out when you play a wrong chord. They might twitch. Or glance at you sideways. Or lean one way or the other. Or shout ‘4!’ at you, like my friend Jenny does at me. This is their way of communicating to you that they did not like the chord you just made. They would tell you more information with actual words, but they're a little busy with all that bow-rocking. Try a different chord the next time around, and they'll probably nod or half-grin their approval.”

 

After all this effort to justify my own subjective interpretation, may you still enjoy Roses in the Morning.  I may be making a mountain out of a molehill, or as my husband says, I’m “whipping a dead horse.” He says Old Time Music is kind of raw and people can find lots of chords to make it “polished”, but it won’t sound “old.”  Feel free to add your comments to modify or justify my thoughts. 

 

Clyde Davenport

 

Clyde Davenport on Slippery Hill (easy to download)

 

Beverly Smith and Carl Jones

 

Joseph DeCosimo (track 2 of "Clydeoscope)

 

Kelli Jones and Joel Savoy

 

Tom McKenzie

 

The Traditional Tune Archive with notation

 

Clyde Davenport, "Shades of Clyde", 39 tunes and anecdotes

 

One other little learning curve needed in Roses in the Morning, as played by Davenport, was to notice how he goes seamlessly from the ending back to the beginning – with no pick-up notes, using the final note as the first note. 

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Nice tune well-played. I had never heard this one before.

Regarding the chords in the first couple of measures of the B-part: A,D,A,D works for me. As noted (intentional double entendre?), Davenport is playing single strings, so different chords will work. However, on the second measure, where one source gives C,G, chords I could force the issue on fiddle by using a drone (open E string) and a noted C# on the 2nd string where the chord is "supposed" to be C and then a double-stop (F# on the first string and D on the 2nd string) where the chord is "supposed" to be G. Those changes force the chords to be A,D. Otherwise, you've got a C# on the fiddle against a C chord and and F# against a G chord.

Now for two digressions, both using TOTWs. The usual version of (Old) Chattanooga from Blaine Smith on fiddle (actually, viola) has him playing some low E notes and the banjo player (Florrie Stewart) playing C chords there. Instead of doing single low E on the fiddle I can use a double stop that is either E&B notes (so E minor) or E&C notes (so C major). I was at a recent jam where I used the E&B notes and people were playing C chords. Sounded pretty bad. Second digression: I was fiddling Morpeth Rant the other day with a guitar player who was throwing minor chords into the B-part. I stopped and said "why are you doing that?" Well, another fiddler this person had played with liked that. To me, it takes a nice happy tune and changes it into something sadder sounding.

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Originally posted by LyleK

Davenport is playing single strings, so different chords will work. However, on the second measure, where one source gives C,G, chords I could force the issue on fiddle by using a drone (open E string) and a noted C# on the 2nd string where the chord is "supposed" to be C and then a double-stop (F# on the first string and D on the 2nd string) where the chord is "supposed" to be G. Those changes force the chords to be A,D. Otherwise, you've got a C# on the fiddle against a C chord and and F# against a G chord.

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Thanks, Lyle, for an explanation detailing notes and chords of how you might play Roses in the Morning on fiddle. Perhaps you can record and share that interpretation.  I think your B part would harmonize with mine. 

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Originally posted by JanetB

Perhaps you can record and share that interpretation.  I think your B part would harmonize with mine. 

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I've got a two hour gig Feb 2nd and a lot of "newish" tunes to woodshed (aka, tunes that at some time I did know but have since forgotten).  So, I'm attaching an *.mp3 recording (through Audacity) of a MIDI playback from a Tabledit tab that I wrote for mandolin and then played back in violin mode.  It has the double-stops in the B-part that I previously mentioned.  As this is from a MIDI file, it sounds pretty cheesy, but better then me trying to fiddle a tune I've never played before.

Thanks again, Lyle. Your mp3 midi is more like how I play Roses in the Morning. How long ago did you write that tab file for mandolin? Was anyone in your circle of musicians playing the tune yet?

Two hour gigs could require woodshedding indeed. I’m reminded of my Plinky & Plunky days — lots of practice at home before a gig.

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Originally posted by JanetB

Thanks again, Lyle. Your mp3 midi is more like how I play Roses in the Morning. How long ago did you write that tab file for mandolin? Was anyone in your circle of musicians playing the tune yet?

Two hour gigs could require woodshedding indeed. I’m reminded of my Plinky & Plunky days — lots of practice at home before a gig.

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I wrote the tab this morning.  Nobody in my circles have ever played this tune.  I grew up in Virginia, lived in  Tennessee for 17 years, and now Illinois for 19 years.  Never heard this one.  If I learn it I can take it to our weekly jam here.  But right now I'm working on Jenny Run Away in the Mud in the Night, Tight Line Fishing, Jack of Diamonds, I'll Learn You how to Rock Andy, Down in Little Egypt, Santa Anna's Retreat, Kickin' Up the Devil on a Holiday, Rocky Pallet, Highlander's Farewell, Salyer's Indian Ate the Woodchuck, Wes Muir's Tune, Porter's Reel, Squirrel Hunters, and others.

Your practice goals sound both fun and very challenging, Lyle.

Thanks for your efforts today to show the B part's other possible interpretation of Roses in the Morning, B part. Is that how you'd prefer to play it?

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Originally posted by JanetB

 Is that how you'd prefer to play it?

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I dunno'.  Seeing as I don't play this tune, the drones and double stops were hypothetical.

Here’s a last pass at the tune for this week. One video is from three years ago, come Spring when the roses bloom. The other is a medley I thought worked well with Roses in the Morning, adding Joe Bane’s Reel.