Yes to both.

In "Wreck of the Old 97" I just follow the Flatt & Scruggs version, which says "He turned around and said to his fireman." youtube.com/watch?v=732g2a7pmpM

"Muleskinner Blues" is so rhythmically irregular it's the last song I would bring up at a jam, or even for a performance. We would all lose our place.

"The Girl I Left in Sunny Tennessee" I substitute "children" (a la Norman Blake) or "people" for the derogatory term for African Americans in the original lyrics.

I'll play devil's advocate here. Black greasy fireman is not racist -- if you're working with coal, you get all black and working around trains is bound to be greasy in several ways. So, it could be taken either way. Same way with Muleskinner Blues. Good mornin shine could be good morning SUNshine.

I think some people purposefully or not tend to think what's said is racist when it's not. I much prefer to put a different meaning than that of racist. I sincerely think most of us are not racist, at least not intentionally. Maybe I have rose colored glasses.

As far as changing words in songs, I very seldom do, but when I do, it's usually changing gender, so the song sounds right for a lady instead of a man, not thinking it's racist.

I always took “black, greasy fireman” meaning the man was black due to the coal he’s shoveling.
I change “all my sins have overtaken me” in “Hand Me Down My Walking Cane” to “all my cares are taken away” to be religiously neutral.

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Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

In "Wreck of the Old 97" I just follow the Flatt & Scruggs version, which says "He turned around and said to his fireman." youtube.com/watch?v=732g2a7pmpM

"Muleskinner Blues" is so rhythmically irregular it's the last song I would bring up at a jam, or even for a performance. We would all lose our place.

"The Girl I Left in Sunny Tennessee" I substitute "children" (a la Norman Blake) or "people" for the derogatory term for African Americans in the original lyrics.

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I love to play and sing  The Girl I left in Sunny Tennessee and I never thought of the word "people" as racist.   I just thought of it as his family and friends.  Guess anything can be made to be racist if one wants it to be.

I meant the original lyrics.

lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/...ssee.html

People forget that being offended is a conscious choice one makes.

Everybody loves being a victim today anyhow.

Play it as it was wrote, or play it as you wanna play it. Nobody will die from it either way.

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Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

People forget that being offended is a conscious choice one makes.

Everybody loves being a victim today anyhow.

Play it as it was wrote, or play it as you wanna play it. Nobody will die from it either way.

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I'm sorry, but people have died because of racism.

Joe

In my OP, I did say that the line from "Wreck of the Old '97," is not "necessarily" racist. But, it could be taken that way. I do believe that it is referring to a man who is dirty and greasy from shoveling coal, but I just feel better about it by changing that lyric while I am singing it.
As for "Mule Shinner Blues," "shine" is definitely and blatantly racist. To say that it is meant to be "sunshine" is really a stretch and anyone who believes that has no idea what racism is. Ask your browser "Is the word "shine" a racist term?" and you will see dozens of references that it is. Ask any senior citizen who was born and raised in the South and they will tell you exactly what it means.
Joe

I have been with some that say you should ban all Stephen Foster songs. Many of his songs should not be performed but others are some of my favorites ever. I can’t think of another song that touches me like My Old Kentucky Home does. It is proper to change a few of the words to make it more correct but to ban is dumb.

I will take this a little further and say that I have never been a big fan of changing the gender do match who’s singing. Yes, most songs are written from the man’s perspective, but does it really matter. You are telling a story not singing as your own experience.
Once in a jam a woman wanted to sing Banks of the Ohio and I was wondering how that was going to work. It did not make a lot of sense when she got to “I took him by his lily white hand”.

Before I get myself into anymore trouble I will stop here……

Flyguy

I do that sometimes. In particular, I only know three songs in the praise of musicians. Two are Bessie Smith, "Trombone Cholly" and "Jazzbo Brown from Memephis Town" (he's a clarinet hound). There's no problem with the lyrics for those songs. However, "Whistling Rufus" (the one man band) uses the N word which I will not sing. I left him black and re-wrote the line as "Black as a stick of ebony". Other friends of mine re-wrote the line a "Jolly as a man can be". I don't like to give up on songs in the praise of musicians.

black is beautiful vs,don't say black
don't see folks that are black as any different vs give folks that are black special categories
true prejudice or reverse prejudice is each of our choices
I would respect a firemen for his own heart --and might say he was white ,black,latino , asian ,american indian,.or from india--the folks I run with would know my meanings and would also judge him on the merits they look for
PS i would have said colored years ago but that has fell by the wayside --and really was not shameful to people that had the desire to get on with being sociable

my opinion I ask no agreement

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Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

People forget that being offended is a conscious choice one makes.  <snip>

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I dunno Antoine ..... there's a lot of "stuff" going on in the world that makes me irritated/angry/upset [i.e. a widely accepted meaning for being offended].

Apparently I'm forgetting something???

If you change the lyrics of a song because they offend you or you think they might offend a listener, I think that's being disrespectful to the composer of the song. If you're offended by the lyrics, or you believe that a listener will be offended by the lyrics, sing some other song.

I dunno ... IF I change words/phrases or add a verse, when "being offended" has nothing to do with it, is it still disrespectful?

IF I make modifications/changes to a tool/device/machine am I being disrespectful to the inventor/manufacturer?

Fwiw, it's my impression that music/song can change/evolve.

Heck... I have trouble with a chord change in the third line of "Too Old To Die Young" ... so I just make the change where it "fits" for me.  Made it's world debut at our last jam (?).   Before I started I did announce where the unconventional change was... with the tongue-in-cheek proviso: "Who knows more about this anyway ... me or Moe Bandy?"   After the dust settled, I asked a couple of participants and they [politely??] said it sounded just fine.

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Originally posted by RB3

If you change the lyrics of a song because they offend you or you think they might offend a listener, I think that's being disrespectful to the composer of the song. If you're offended by the lyrics, or you believe that a listener will be offended by the lyrics, sing some other song.

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You obviously don't get it.

Joe

If we are going to get scolded for, or argue about, singing questionable lyrics; skip the racist garbage and stick to what it's really all about...  

"Roll me over" by Babad, Harry  https://www.abebooks.com/Roll-Over-Babad-Harry-MUSIC-SALES/32154947088/bd

There are countless examples of changes in lyrics of bluegrass and old time songs. Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane was originally written in the so- called Negro dialect and it thankfully isn’t sung that way today. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with changing racially offensive material if the song still makes sense without it. The word “shine” in Mule Skinner Blues is often substituted with “boy” which is only slightly better but it’s a good song and I can’t think of another word that would fit. Good Morning, Friend just doesn’t cut it. Cleaning up lyrics in this way doesn’t mean that we’re turning a blind eye to the horror of racism. I think of it as rescuing good songs of the past that deserve to be sung and listened to today.

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

The word “shine” in Mule Skinner Blues is often substituted with “boy” which is only slightly better but it’s a good song and I can’t think of another word that would fit. Good Morning, Friend just doesn’t cut it. 

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"Son" is often used as a substitute, and has the advantage of preserving the boss's patrician attitude toward a worker, especially if it's a younger one; plus, it's a typical southernism. Connie Francis substitutes "sunshine," which I don't suppose she'd have felt it necessary to do if  "shine" had any tendency to mean "sunshine." The only thing "shine" is short for is moonshine.

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Originally posted by cottontop

When singing that song at a jam, I intentionally change the words from "He turned around and said to his black greasy fireman..." to "He turned around and said to his young trusty fireman..." 

Peope hear what they want to hear.  A "black greasy fireman" is not the same as a "greasy black fireman."

And lyric confusion is not just bluegrass, unless you blew grass while listening to "Puff the Magic Dragon."
 

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cottontop,

"So, do you ever change the words of a song to make it more compatible or even refuse to play the song all together?"

That's the last sentence in your initial post. It's a solicitation of an opinion, and I gave you mine. If you disagree, that's fine, but telling me that "I don't get it" is an insult. That's a curious response from someone concerned about offending people.

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Originally posted by RB3

cottontop,

"So, do you ever change the words of a song to make it more compatible or even refuse to play the song all together?"

That's the last sentence in your initial post. It's a solicitation of an opinion, and I gave you mine. If you disagree, that's fine, but telling me that "I don't get it" is an insult. That's a curious response from someone concerned about offending people.

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You are telling me what to do. I am not telling you what to do. I don't and never have meant any disrespect to the song writer. It is a different time from when those songs were originally written and if those same song writers wrote those songs today, I would think the lyrics would be a bit different. I'm sorry that you feel that I insulted you as an insult was not my intention. It just seemed to me that you did not understand what I was saying in my OP. And that's my opinion of your post. It was a simple question and it could have been answered with a simple yes or no answer and did not require some in depth philosophical response though everyone has the right to respond as they wish. It is what it is.

Joe

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Originally posted by cottontop

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

If you change the lyrics of a song because they offend you or you think they might offend a listener, I think that's being disrespectful to the composer of the song. If you're offended by the lyrics, or you believe that a listener will be offended by the lyrics, sing some other song.

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You obviously don't get it.

Joe

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Come on Joe, put some effort into it.  I'll go first:

Let's use a river analogy.  The tune is like where the river is going and how it gets there; if it changes too much it becomes a different river.  The song is like the water in the river; sometimes it's the same, but, it should follow the path that the river takes.  The singer is the dude in an inner-tube telling us all about the conditions; those change from moment to moment, but, the path remains...

Mine's pretty good; your turn...  

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Originally posted by pinenut

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Originally posted by cottontop

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

If you change the lyrics of a song because they offend you or you think they might offend a listener, I think that's being disrespectful to the composer of the song. If you're offended by the lyrics, or you believe that a listener will be offended by the lyrics, sing some other song.

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You obviously don't get it.

Joe

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Come on Joe, put some effort into it.  I'll go first:

Let's use a river analogy.  The tune is like where the river is going and how it gets there; if it changes too much it becomes a different river.  The song is like the water in the river; sometimes it's the same, but, it should follow the path that the river takes.  The singer is the dude in an inner-tube telling us all about the conditions; those change from moment to moment, but, the path remains...

Mine's pretty good; your turn...  

 

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Seriously?

Joe

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Originally posted by cottontop

quote:

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Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

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Originally posted by cottontop

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

If you change the lyrics of a song because they offend you or you think they might offend a listener, I think that's being disrespectful to the composer of the song. If you're offended by the lyrics, or you believe that a listener will be offended by the lyrics, sing some other song.

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You obviously don't get it.

Joe

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Come on Joe, put some effort into it.  I'll go first:

Let's use a river analogy.  The tune is like where the river is going and how it gets there; if it changes too much it becomes a different river.  The song is like the water in the river; sometimes it's the same, but, it should follow the path that the river takes.  The writer/singer is the dude in an inner-tube telling us all about the conditions; those change from moment to moment, but, the path remains...

Mine's pretty good; your turn...  

 

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Seriously?

Joe

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Seriously, YES.

Storytelling is the old man power skill. 

This is a safe space to build repertoire.

Instructions Below:

Take Wayne's statement, "If you change the lyrics of a song because they offend you or you think they might offend a listener, I think that's being disrespectful to the composer of the song. If you're offended by the lyrics, or you believe that a listener will be offended by the lyrics, sing some other song.". 

Break it down, contradict it with examples/counterpoints that are documented(able) and finish with an sincere question that serves as deflection and good will and/or is just a clarification. 

Iff you are really good; slide a very subtle burn into the text that no one will catch on to for at least a few hours or more... this is an advanced skill that is out of my current range, but, have had applied to me by a select few old men.