Great question. Thought that I would ask ChatGPT this question. Attached is the answer that I got - hope that it helps.

In banjo playing, the term "modal" primarily refers to a specific tuning (G Modal or "Sawmill" tuning) and a style of music that uses scales other than the standard major or minor, creating a distinctive, often haunting, "mountain minor" sound associated with Appalachian old-time music.
Modal Tuning (G Modal/Sawmill)

The most common "modal" context for banjo players is the use of the G modal tuning, also known as Sawmill or Mountain Minor tuning (gDGCD).

Tuning adjustment: This tuning is achieved by taking the standard Open G tuning (gDGBD) and raising the 2nd string (B) a half step to a C note.
Resulting sound: This small change eliminates the third of the G major chord, creating a suspended 4th sound (G sus 4). This ambiguity between major and minor gives the tuning its characteristic "modal" or "eerie" quality.

Common tunes: It is a very popular tuning for traditional old-time songs such as "Shady Grove," "Cluck Old Hen," "Little Sadie," and "Pretty Polly".

Modal Music Theory

From a music theory perspective, "modal" music:
Uses specific scales: It draws from the "church modes" (such as Dorian or Mixolydian), which are different arrangements of intervals than the common major (Ionian) or natural minor (Aeolian) scales.

Avoids functional harmony: Unlike much Western music, which uses strong, "functional" chord progressions (like a V-I resolution) to establish a clear key center, modal music often uses a limited number of chords or vamps (sometimes just one) to support the melody. The melody itself defines the mode or key center.

Creates a drone effect: The open, sustained strings of the banjo in modal tuning often create a droning sound against the melody, which is characteristic of this style.

In short, "modal" playing on the banjo involves specific tunings that facilitate playing music based on these non-major/minor scales, evoking the unique, ancient sound of traditional folk music.

Tongue-in-cheek, though I've heard the term,  I'd have fit right in with the "appears to be foreign" group, so as a participant I'd just go with, "...this too shall pass." 

@Spartysam  that's the thing, the explanation is long and bumps up against the western music philosophy that is thin veneer on a banjo and is an initial design element of the other instruments.

Specifically, it's how traditional banjo play supports adjusting the tuning to the tune and noting the strings, as compared to adjusting a singular tuning with chords to the tune and playing the notes (general philosophy of western instruments).  @Bill Rogers

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Originally posted by Owen

Tongue-in-cheek, though I've heard the term,  I'd have fit right in with the "appears to be foreign" group, so as a participant I'd just go with, "...this too shall pass." 

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Owen, you'd a thought i grew a second head, from the looks I got, when I said 'modal' this afternoon. 

I don't want another head, this one comes with enough problems.

my view though not proclaimed as correct --those tunes that have flatted thirds but the - mood of a minor chord changes the feel of the melody ''too much''--usually a simple combination of root and 5 and octaves of the root and 5 --works for me
modes from the middle ages have morphed on-- to kinda help name these scales that have gotten to be mainstays in certain genres over the years--but don't look for much theory on using modes to build chords for fiddle tunes
my opinion I ask no agreement
too big of a mouth full to take to a bluegrass jam for sure

I love to hear the Johnson Mountain Boys do T for Texas. I really like hear Dudley modal , I mean yodel at the end of the verses . lol modal? I would be like a neanderthal . I really need to lean music another way than by ear.

It's strange to me that a bluegrass jam wouldn't be familiar with modal tuning. Clinch Mountain Backstep? Shady Grove? Sweet Sunny South? Kitchen Girl? Little Sadie? Click Old Hen? Walking Boss? Cold Frosty Morn? Pretty Polly? And that's just a tiny selection.

I know it's more commonly a old-time/fiddle tune tuning and not specifically bluegrass, but a lot of them are common bluegrass songs, and it seems to me anyone that's played/heard bluegrass for any amount of time has to have heard a few of these songs.

In any case, I'd tell them it's like G/A but with the 3rd interval raised a half-step, and there's some funky F/G-licks in it. Maybe play through the progression once or twice, most modal songs are very simple without a lot of chord changes so you can pick them up pretty quick.

Shady Grove, as played by fiddlers, is usually in A Dorian ("sawmill" or "mountain minor") mode, not G Dorian. Ionian mode (aka, major) for the key of A has three sharps (F#, C#, and G#). Mixolydian gets rid of one sharp (so, two sharps being F# and C#). Dorian gets rid of another sharp (so, just F#). Aeolian (aka, minor) in the key of A has no sharps or flats.

Your bluegrass friends should be familiar with "Little Maggie."  It is "modal" (specifically, Mixolydian).  It is usually in G or capoed to A or even higher depending on vocal range.

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Originally posted by LyleK

 It is "modal" (specifically, Mixolydian).  

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My understanding is that, in the guitar world at ;east,  "modal" refers to a scale that begins on a note other than the root. Each mode has its own character.

But when I say "modal" referring to the style of banjo I usually play, I mean "trance music". Sawmill is the best trance tuning I've found so far. Double C is pretty good, but gets a little bluesy.

What I read was that with G Modal the tuning is unresolved so it's not either major or minor and it is this that gives it the distinct feel.

Even if it not quite appropriate I use to explain modal song/tune, that they have two kind of tonal centers. For example what we call G Dorian has G as root and is based on the F major scale. G Mixolydian has G as root and is based on C major scale.

Also read this thread: https://www.banjohangout.org/topic/287412

"...raising the 2nd string (B) a half step to a C note."

In our house, a C note is refered to as 0.1 Boat Bucks.

If anyone asked me I would say that modal is a modality, but luckily no one has asked me for a long time.

Jan Olov did well to point to the thread https://www.banjohangout.org/topic/287412

There is also a "sticky" (permanent) thread at: https://www.banjohangout.org/topic/389423

This is well-trodden territory, and it usually seems to boil down to those with a music theory background and those who find the theory tedious and of no use.  Bluegrass banjo players can play "Run Mountain" (a very popular bluegrass song, listen to the original 1949 recording and watch the 1960 video) perfectly well without having to know that it is in G Lydian, one of the seven modes.  The banjo would just use standard gDGBD tuning and play the darn thing.  Likewise, it might just be best to tell your bluegrass friends that Shady Grove is in the key of G, tell them that they'll be using F chords, and leave it at that.  That is assuming that there are no fiddlers or mandolin players present who will want it in A (Dorian)

In the O-T world, this business of modes can have consequences.  The current TOTW (Sally in the Garden) is listed as being in D minor.  It is not.  It is in A Dorian.

Now for the "very" quick music theory lesson.  A scale is just a series of notes that leads to the octave interval.  In standard G tuning the third string is tuned to a wavelength of 392 Hz and the octave (5th string) is twice the wavelength (784).  A scale is a progression of notes that spans the octave.  We are used to a seven note scale, but there are also pentatonic scales, and chromatic scales.  The modes come from only using whte keys on a piano but spanning the octave from different starting notes.  Starting from C and using only white keys gives you Ionian (major), from D with only white keys is Dorian, E is Phrygian, F is Lydian, G is Mixolydian, A is Aeolian (natural minor), and B is Locrian.  Life gets more complicated when you maintain the pattern of full and half steps but start at a different white key.  So, for A Aeolian you start on A but still use only white keys.  For A Dorian you start on A and play only white keys, with the exception of F# which is a black key.

A beginners bluegrass jam I have attended locally references everything to the 1-4-5 chord structure. So, if someone calls a song/tune in A (A major assumed), they say ‘the chords are A, D, and E’. For anything other than this, they simply say 'there are other chords’, then they name the chords. They dodge the mode terminal altogether, which perhaps is a wise thing for a beginners jam. Or let's say something in G had a 2 chord in it. The just say, ‘there is also an A chord’, and the jam leader (a guitar player) will usually call the chord when it comes around the first time.

Different banjo tunings can facilitate playing in different modes, but banjo tunings themselves are not modes. The Double C tuning is a “multi-modal” tuning that works perfectly fine for playing the Ionian (major), Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian (minor) modes in the Key of C. Here’s a demo:

https://youtu.be/CzyAL_STtDs?si=1iQWTpqpYm1PB3ji

And here is an explanation of why Double C is "modally versatile":

https://youtu.be/ZozqXWiy_lU?si=7MyNyKxAJ4n-cc2N

Modal?? 

Almost all I hear about it comes from a TV ad for Manmade underwear.  https://manmadebrand.com/ 

But, sadly he/they don't explain it, either.... I'm eternally grateful that we have "look it up."  

modes were mankinds earlier attempts at identifying/ playing scales that matched up to the moods that musical sounds created----not much google is needed to show how all eight can easily be found on the white keys of the piano--
Their use dwindled behind the streamlined use of the two scales '' most used ''today
Fiddle tunes in certain genres developed a tradition of 2 chord stuff --the key chord and the other chord built on the chord a full step down--they might vary at being major or minor--these ended up closer to the older modes -- doing so,by  using scales that fit modes that were not the usual major/minor--since these tunes-- got so numerous --they started getting mentioned a lot--the same music can be written in the standard system btw --
Jazz guys wax and wane about modes--but I am ignorant on that knowledge--
As far as among the stringband masses --a read up thru this forum shows how "modal" gets different interpretations depending on where it was -- picked up--
But yes we all like dropping down from D to C etc.
As i said above I just give the term "modal' to certain tunes that have flatted thirds but get sweetened too much --with use of--a minor chord harmony--I have always liked to ==simply  use the chord.. that in recent times --has got to be known as a power chord

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Originally posted by jack_beuthin

A beginners bluegrass jam I have attended locally references everything to the 1-4-5 chord structure. So, if someone calls a song/tune in A (A major assumed), they say ‘the chords are A, D, and E’. For anything other than this, they simply say 'there are other chords’, then they name the chords. They dodge the mode terminal altogether, which perhaps is a wise thing for a beginners jam.  

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Sigh, that will work with this group. 

I'll look up the Nashville numbering system chords next time and probably need to carry a circle of fifths with me too.  

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Originally posted by pinenut

So, at a bluegrass jam; I call Shady Grove, from the tune list, in G/A modal. 

The term 'modal' appears to be foreign to the whole group.  

 

How do I explain this?  Is my best response to just say, "Yup, G/A minor."?

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G/A modal doesn't really mean anything as that is not a key or mode.  This tune is  based in Dorian and usually just referred to as the minor version (There is another popular version of this tune which is major).  Dorian is one of the minor modes as it features a minor third interval.  Calling it Minor instead of Dorian works in Bluegrass/oldtime as these genres really don't harmonize with extended chords so they don't have to be aware of which version of the 6th they play (Dorian's 6th is a 1/2 step higher then aeolian/natural minor).  In other genres where extended harmonizations are more popular you want to be sure the Dorian distinction is known so no one hits a dissonant 6th.  If the music is written, musicians will recognize it is Dorian and not natural minor as they will see sharp 6ths in the written music. 

What jack_beuthin said.  Many of the responses here don't tell you how to explain how they should accompany a tune in A modal tuning.   Bluegrassers know major from minor, but "modal" tuning cane be accompanied by one or the other. Clinch Mountain Backstop is played in A major in bluegrass, but Shady Grove will be in A minor (assuming it's not the bluegrass versioin of the song in A major). You must tell them what chords to play. If you don't know the chords for accompaniment, look them up. There are simpler and complexer arrangements. They need to usderstand whether they will accompany you in major or minor.

If you want to explain A modal tuning to the jammers, tell them it is an A chord with the B string raised one fret to C --which is the root note of the 4 chord. Technically an A suspended 4 chord.

Bluegrass banjo pickers will use some alternative tunings to open G. These include drop C, and the D tuning used both for 900 Miles in old time, whch is Ruben's Train in bluegrass.  

mandolincafe.net/archives/niles

Hope this works. Big can of worms.

If I were calling Shady Grove in a jam, I'd just declare the two chords. (Em, and D for me)

All tunes are played in a modal way. The standard scale and harmonies are one particular mode. Formally, the standard unadulturated scale is called the Ionian Mode.

Thousands of years ago the Ancient Greeks established names for different sets of 8 note intervals like scales, and the names were attached to them based on the cities or regions of Greece whoever thought the particular mode was identified with.

This is complicated insofar as some Bluegrasser like that fellow named Bill Montroe, do play Shady Grove in what in the standard scalular  way, actually in the Ionian mode.   Many Bluegrass people play Shady Grove with the same tune that Lew (whom I know) has heard me play "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss" in because a fellow named Bill Monroe and his band played and recorded it that way on several occasions rather than in the more modal way.

The most modal way I guess one could play Shady Grove might be to retune the banjo as Lew suggests because you get that C note (or if you are up in A as you all seem to be discussing, a D note)

You might retune the banjo from DBGDg or EC#AEa to DCGDg or EDAEa. That would be in a tuning some call Sawmill and some call Mountain Modal.

I used to do that, but I find it more expressive to remain in the standard DBGDg or EC#AEa and put in the modal notes by hammer ons and pull offs. Especially in a bluegrass context you  get that C note and the F notes in there by hammer ons and pull offs contrasting with theB and the G.   Then some old time music purists would not let you use A minor or even C in yur backup on guitar for this if you are playing in G.  

This works exceptionally well if the tune is one of the tunes adopted like "Kitchen Girl" that wander back and forth between the "mode" that includes the C natural note and G in A in different areas of the tune,.

On the other hand you can go whole hog in the way that many of the original old time banjoists did Black and white who played Coo Coo Bird with the banjo permanently in the Sawmill Tuning DCGDg or EDAEa. It is a matter of taste and inclination. Though I know you know this Lew, I will play one of these tunes to illustrate this which I am sure you know on Friday (Lew and I participate a zoom jam each friday.)

Lew BTW is a great and entertaining banjoist who has many wonderful things online both here on banjo hangout that will make clunky banjoists like me wish we worked at music more!



But one can also tune the Banjo to DCGDg for G or EDAEa for A.

I did a blog-post on diatonic modes in old time music (back when I was writing a banjo blog...):

http://www.jeffnormanbanjo.com/weekly-banjo-blog/diatonic-modes-and-old-time-music

Here's a snippet at the end relevant to this discussion:

So, what do people mean when they say "this next one is a modal tune?"

In my experience this can mean a couple different things:

The most obvious (and arguably correct) definition would be that any tune outside of the normal Major or Minor keys is called a "modal" tune. This alerts everyone involved to look for something funny (weird notes/chords) if they don't know the tune. This would catch any strictly-mixolydian, strictly-dorian, or mode-switching tunes, regardless of what tuning these are played in.

However, some people also the term "modal" to refer to any tune played in "modal" (aka sawmill; gDGCD/aEADE) tuning. This definition is a little problematic. First off, natural A minor (Aeolian) tunes would be played in "modal" tuning and I even play a few major/Ionian tunes in this tuning simply out of ease-of-fingering concerns. Also, mixolydian and/or dorian tunes played in double C/D (gCGCD/aDADE) are not captured under this definition of "modal."

In other words, "modal" means different things to different people - I guess the best thing to do is open your ears extra wide when someone tells you a "modal tune" is coming at a jam : )

quote:

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Originally posted by Lew H

What jack_beuthin said.  Many of the responses here don't tell you how to explain how they should accompany a tune in A modal tuning.   Bluegrassers know major from minor, but "modal" tuning cane be accompanied by one or the other. Clinch Mountain Backstop is played in A major in bluegrass, but Shady Grove will be in A minor (assuming it's not the bluegrass versioin of the song in A major). You must tell them what chords to play. If you don't know the chords for accompaniment, look them up. There are simpler and complexer arrangements. They need to usderstand whether they will accompany you in major or minor.

If you want to explain A modal tuning to the jammers, tell them it is an A chord with the B string raised one fret to C --which is the root note of the 4 chord. Technically an A suspended 4 chord.

Bluegrass banjo pickers will use some alternative tunings to open G. These include drop C, and the D tuning used both for 900 Miles in old time, whch is Ruben's Train in bluegrass.  

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I agree Lew, the chords accompanying the tune are the critical element in the treatment of a modal tune. Except that I would rather not hear the third at all (major or minor), over the root chord anyway. Just playing root five keeps that floaty, ambiguous sound which is what we all love about modal tunes.