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I was the winner of circa 1910 Bacon FF Professional that in its lifetime someone spliced into the original
neck an extension to make it a long neck banjo, ala Pete Seeger. It is a rare version FF Professional with diamond cutouts on the internal resonator. The banjo supposedly came from an estate, with the extension most likely occurring around 1960 as a best guess. I am a big fan of originality, and am glad that the banjo has the rare original neck, but should I take the effort to restore the neck to its original size? No matter what I do, the fact that it had been previously modified will show, and further, that extension of the original neck (which appears to have been professionally done), is part of the banjo's history. So I ask my friends at the Banjo Hangout, what would you do?
Edited by - frankabr. on 11/10/2025 17:55:40
Assuming it is playable, I'd put a Paige type capo on it and play it.
Play it as it lays.
The sound holes in the internal resonator are most unusual, as I've never come across any like that in style or number (8). Though the site below can no longer be modified, my comments include up to my August, 2025 update (in my computer). Any idea what the serial number is? That would help a lot.
The serial number is 1038. Yes, unusual and somewhat early. I think that this is an early Vega made banjo, based on the heel inlay and the inlay on the back of the headstock. The seller dated it at 1910, but to me that is somewhat speculative, it could be 1911, 1912, or perhaps earlier than 1910?. From what I understand, Bacon had both Vega and Lange construct their banjos. I think that this is early Vega made as the Lange made ones sometimes have Lange type inlay on the fretboard. Also, a lot of Lange made ones had a three hole cutout design in the internal resonator with a large hold in the middle. Regarding this banjo and the diamond cutouts on the internal resonators, I had heard mention of that design, but never saw one until the listing came up. It supposedly came from an estate. Even though the neck was lengthened (pooh), I still think that this particular banjo is of historical significance due to that apparently rare cutout design. It is obviously original and I'm anxious to play it when it arrives. Happy to hear any comments.
My opinion is it was not made by Vega. The peghead inlay does not resemble anything that Vega ever made. Likely the heel cap and back of headstock inlays were leftovers from when Vega made the banjos for Fred Bacon. Looking at the original eBay listing, I see the inlay engraving is nothing like I have seen coming out of the Vega workshop.
I also noticed that there is an extra hole through the rim at the tailpiece bolt. Presumably to reset the neck.
That said, I am sure we can agree that Pete Seeger's "how to convert a regular 5-string banjo to a long neck" instruction page in his book sure screwed up a lot of nice 5-string banjos that were 40 to 60 years old when the book was published.
Bob Smakula
Edited by - Bob Smakula on 11/11/2025 08:16:00
But, but, those extra frets are for singing!
It is funny how trends work. The first wave altered necks by making them longer and adding frets, the current trend is to chop out frets.
Is trying to restore the neck to its original size even an option? It would still show at least one cut where the neck was put back together, plus wood was undoubtedly lost due to the thickness of the saw blade, thus an insert of wood would have to be added to make up the difference. It is what it is, and the extension appears to have been professionally done during an interesting and significant period. It is my feeling and hope that banjo historians in the future will treasure such banjos as they help explain the historical significance of the period that banjos as such were manufactured and lated modified. That, and the fact that even though extended, it is the original neck on a rare example with diamond shaped cutouts and evidence that two manufacturers, Lange and Vega appear to somehow have had a hand it its manufacture. Early valuable violins with smaller Baroque necks present an interesting comparison. Many times they grafted wood into the neck, and sometimes made a new neck and grafted the old scroll onto it. I wonder if that reduced the value of old Stradivarius violins? (subtle laughter).
19th-century modernization: During the 19th century, musical demands for greater projection in larger concert halls led to a push for louder instruments. Luthiers altered the original baroque instruments to meet these new standards:
The neck was removed from the violin's body and a new, longer neck was installed at a more angled position.
To preserve the artistry of the original maker, the violin's scroll was carefully cut from the old neck and grafted onto the new one.
Lengthening with a "shoe": In some cases, if the original neck had enough wood, it could be lengthened by adding a piece of wood, called a "shoe," at the heel instead of grafting on an entirely new neck.
Ah, the old violins are the same as banjos thing.
Of course not, banjos are much more utilitarian and much more loved by people in general than old fiddles. No comparison is possible!
AFA the restoration, I am afraid I have no useful input or additions. I would not know what to do with it, but I would not have bought it.
Not sure how to respond to this, I'm just so busy crying. Oh Lord, please save this broken child!
quote:
Originally posted by trapdoor2Assuming it is playable, I'd put a Paige type capo on it and play it.
As in....?
Now this is interesting: Before Vega started making them, Seeger and some friends converted a number of Bacon banjos by grafting the neck as he outlined in his book. I have seen the one that Marc Silber owns (owned?). After the conversion, they painted the necks black including the face of the headstock. I would doubt that many of the owners today would know what they have.
From Unofficial Martin Forum, 2005: Hmmm.... this started a new thread -- oops!
RMK, some of that info is not quite correct.
>The only "extra long neck" that I ever heard of Vega making was Eric Darling's. It had the 5th string moved up one fret - thus the "extra Long Neck" designation.
Extra long neck is a common term for the 32" Pete Seeger style banjo -- no matter who made it.
Erik Darling played at least two customized Vegas, one with a neck made by a furniture maker and the other with a neck by Vega. That second banjo is probably the first 32" neck made by Vega. I believe that both have the 5th peg in the 8th fret.
It was Alex Hasseliv of the Limelighters who asked Vega to move the 5th string up a fret so that he could capo and play in F. Vega made a number of these but it is not known how many. The feature was a $70 upcharge in my early '60s catalog and was called the XXL Custom -- it was normally blonde. I have seen one Vega Folklore with that feature. In all cases, the neck remained the same at 32". BTW, I have seen two PS-5s with original Whyte Laydie tone rings.
Pete Seeger didn't auction off "all" his Vega long necks. The only one that they ever gave him was offered as a prize in conjunction with Sing Out magazine. Mr. Seeger has at least two other banjos that he plays in public besides the Vega/D'Angelico that he is famous for.
Before Vega started making them, Seeger and some friends converted a number of Bacon banjos by grafting the neck as he outlined in his book. I have seen the one that Marc Silber owns (owned?). After the conversion, they painted the necks black including the face of the headstock. I would doubt that many of the owners today would know what they have.
C. F. Martin owned Vega from May 1970. In 1976, they started running out of metal parts and ordered them from Galaxy Trading. Martin still made the rims and necks, though. By 1977 (mistakenly listed as 1972 on many web sites), they sold the name and Galaxy had the banjos made in Japan, later Korea.
> heard Martin sold the Vega name to some oriental "trading company". I notice that Deering is now offering a long neck & have heard claims that he now owns the Vega name. Does anyone know the truth of it?
Yes, I got it from Greg Deering himself. I talked to him about it after he bought Vega from Galaxy in the early 1990s (I don't remember the year). Martin had not only sold Galaxy the name but also all the tools it had acquired from Vega. Greg told me that after he bought theVega name, he learned that the tooling had been sold to a scrap dealer. He rushed down and was able to rescue many things including a lathe and most of the original fret saws. He only got one of the two important fret saws and I no longer remember if he rescued the 32" one for the PS models or the 27" for the Professional scale -- in any case, he could make one from the other. BTW, "fret saw" was the term that he used -- I don't know if he meant a saw template or if there was a whole assembly.
For a long time, Greg made all the TuBaPhone rings himself. Some of the early ones were of the original 10 15/16" diameter. Deering later standardized the pot so that it would take an 11" head. I was one of those who tried to convince them to keep the old dimension.
Originally, Deering named the long necks after Pete Seeger and used PS in the model designations. This only lasted a short while. Seeger had asked Martin not to use his name and I am pretty sure that he did the same with Deering. I can ask Greg or Janet the next time I see them.
>Hedy West ( 500 miles ) is another well know long neck player. Her Vega has a 3 piece maple neck with mahog? center strip, Vega banjo shaped peg head, tubaphone tone ring, 28 shoes, 10 15/16" rim, co-ord rods with allen adjusters, The neck was orig a sunburst finish with a really god awful thick finish. The original tuners are Grover guitar Rotomts.
Are you sure? 28 brackets, coordinator rods and Allen screws? Usually the ones with Allen screws have 24 brackets like mine. 28 brackets and coordinator rods are quite rare.
BTW, Hedy West passed away last month, on July 3, 2005.
Definitely Lange-made, after Vega's exit. Early on, it seems that Lange made an effort to emulate some characteristics of the Bacons that Vega built, including some of the inlay patterns. I've wondered if Fred just shipped a Vega-made Bacon to Lange and said, "here, copy this" when he started having them do his manufacturing.
During that time, Fred was also building his own banjos, in Forest Dale, VT. The Forest Dale shop was very small (literally a shed in his backyard) so it's unclear how much manufacturing actually went on. Necks were made there, but rims and hardware were almost certainly sourced elsewhere. Fred had several men working for him, including E. P. Saunders, a violin maker from Ludlow, VT. Lange's Bacon production seems to have overlapped somewhat with Vermont production, with the plainer instruments coming from Forest Dale and the fancier ones coming from Lange.
Every Vega Bacon I've seen has the S-shaped sound holes. Lange's are a mix of S, triple holes, and the diamonds.
Edited by - Andy FitzGibbon on 11/11/2025 11:11:37
Somewhat related is my Vega longneck. The Vega tubaphone pot's serial number is 62013 (1923 according to Deering's list) and the Vega long neck's serial is 10114 (1961). These two were married by Thomas Haile, luthier ar Shacketon's Music Store in Louisville, a Martin and Vega dealer. Haile was the brother of Haskell Haile and also the instrument technician for the Louisville Orchestra. I visited his shop in the basement of Shackleton's several times. On one visit in 1969, I saw this banjo and purchased it. It has served me well over the years, though I now prefer a short-scale banjo for playing reels, jigs and waltzes at the weekly contra dances in Louisville.
David
I'm starting to think that the OP banjo was made by Pete Seeger himself. I think Woody Guthrie helped clamp the neck.
quote:
Originally posted by Joel HooksI'm starting to think that the OP banjo was made by Pete Seeger himself. I think Woody Guthrie helped clamp the neck.
Perhaps one could examine the volute for dove DNA?
quote:
Originally posted by frankabr.Now this is interesting: Before Vega started making them, Seeger and some friends converted a number of Bacon banjos by grafting the neck as he outlined in his book. I have seen the one that Marc Silber owns (owned?). After the conversion, they painted the necks black including the face of the headstock. I would doubt that many of the owners today would know what they have.
You're right, almost no one knows what they have—including Marc when he first showed me that banjo around 40 years ago. "Why do you think there is black paint covering the headstock?" So I told him and showed him the relevant passage in Pete's book.
If you shine a strong light on the headstock, the Bacon label is barely visible through the paint. It's not the only one I have seen in California.
Pete preferred converting Bacons because they didn't have metal reinforcement in the neck. Having large hands, I always found those baseball bat necks comfortable but I never liked the sound. Of course, I'm now kicking myself for never buying one of those conversions.
Marc was the source of my '20s Tubaphone NO 3 plectrum and '60s blonde PS-5.
As to your OP, I would leave it alone. The extension is part of the mojo, in my opinion.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 11/13/2025 09:57:39
Well the banjo arrived, and it sounds fantastic. The neck extension was clearly professionally done and it will remain as part of the banjo's history.
quote:
Originally posted by frankabr.Well the banjo arrived, and it sounds fantastic. The neck extension was clearly professionally done and it will remain as part of the banjo's history.
Great decision! IMO
Next question; Should I leave the Shubb Sliding 5th String Capo on, or install RR Spikes?
I for one, am glad you’ve decided to retain the long neck as part of its history, and though not a fan of the Shubb sliding capo, I would leave that as well…it’s like buying a Plymouth Road Runner with Daisy mags on it…it’s all part of the history and there are plenty of “correct” resto’s out there…
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