The extra measures at the end of J.D.'s kickoff is the way he and Tony liked to do it. It was their preference. If the folks you play with think that's too many extra measures, then do it the way they want you to do it, or find someone else pick with who likes to do it the way J.D. and Tony did it.  Also, you might want to listen the version of song by Flatt & Scruggs for comparison.

Yep. In my opinion those measures are completely dependent on when the singer wants to come in. Sometimes in a jam you’ll start immediately after the last two G measures, sometimes it’s two, sometimes three. I like three, but sometimes it will even change mid-song. Sometimes Lester Flatt couldn’t remember the words to the next verse and Earl would play something until he was ready, sometimes several measures. To me part of the fun of bluegrass is figuring out stuff like this on the fly in a jam or band situation. The more you play with others the easier it gets.

This is a problem at our jams as well - some folks like to play a “breathing/tread-water” measure after vocal lines in the middle of a verse, others don’t. I had a heck of a time playing a simple 2 chord song and getting everyone in sync on the accompaniment. For experienced players they’ll catch the pause/extra measure,, for others it’s a train wreck.

Earl's arrangement as recorded on "Foggy Mountain Jamboree" is aboard in the Newest Tab Archive....Jack   p.s. this extra measure thing is as Earl has done his endings in many of his songs so it's nothing new...

This is a prime example of people confusing or conflating the song with the record or arrangement.

Pauses or extra measures between instrumental intros and singing or between verses and choruses (or vice-versa) are aspects of arrangement (how someone chooses to play the song -- which is the melody and lyrics) captured in a particular recording or performance. They are not necessarily  how the song goes.

However, as has been discussed on the Hangout several times over the years, certain recordings have become the standard way certain songs are played -- down to the specific intro or kickoff, repeated choruses, endings, emphasized beats -- that most likely were not in fact how the song was written.

Lots of words to say you're playing with people who expect to do it "the way JD did it" and there will be no convincing them the extra measures aren't a necessary part of the song.

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"someone mentioned a tag at the end of my play through recently, explaining that the last line of the song can be played again instead of trying to lift up my leg to signify an end to the song."
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What I do, when I'm singing, is raise one of my hands, extend my index finger, and circle it in the air. I believe this signals "tag" or "wrap it up" and whenever I do it -- even at jams I've never been to before -- players have understood it to mean repeat the last line. I usually get my hands back on the banjo in time for the ending lick, sometimes moving the neck to indicate it's really the end.

To sum it up: there's no one size fits all in bluegrass songs. One person does it his/her way anothe a different way. You just have to listen and go along with what's being played. When your time comes to start the song, then you do it your way and everyone else should follow along.

Exactly Sherry! Jack

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

To sum it up: there's no one size fits all in bluegrass songs. One person does it his/her way anothe a different way. You just have to listen and go along with what's being played. When your time comes to start the song, then you do it your way and everyone else should follow along.

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Oh good glad to hear it... so it's somewhere else I'm screwing up :***(

Ill just continue playing along to these songs until I get the lyrics at the right places I think... and when the planets align everyone will play along with me! 

What exactly is the situation, and what's happening?

Is someone else calling the song they're going to sing but you're playing the intro and not adding three measures of licks they're expecting before the singing starts? Is this happening every verse coming out of solos? Assuming you're playing backup, couldn't the rest of the jam just play over you if instead of playing three measures of G fill you're going to the C chord too soon?

Did you call the song, play the intro, and then sing without the three measures of fill licks? Well, as Sherry said: your call, your way. It's jam etiquette that they follow your lead.

Is it something else? I'd really like to know, because comparative jam dynamics is really interesting.

Of course you should learn the song the way this jam plays it. So you'll learn it and move on.

I see happen a lot in the jams I've played in. Often I'll play the extra G measures but watch the singer for when he starts up again...I'll see him start singing before I'm done with extra measures then I'll back off on volume and shift into the start of the song, so it works out in the end.

We sometimes get this in our bluegrass jams too. The safest bet in our group is to go directly to the next thing, no extra bars, unless it's the song leader singing the next verse, in which case we wait for the song leader to start singing and then join up with that.

The song can become a train wreck when an instrumental soloist waits an extra bar or two before starting his/her solo break. Nobody else knows what's going on. Did the soloist start late but is still on schedule, or did s/he add extra bars? Sometimes, it's hard to tell. When in doubt, we look to the song leader or bass player to reestablish where we are in the song.

As usual, Old Hickory nailed it.

I'd add that you go straight from verse to chorus without extra measures; ditto for going from chorus to break. BUT going from a break into the next verse, you can linger on that root chord as long as needed/desired until a) the soloist has finished his/her string of filler licks, or b) the singer is ready to sing the next verse.

As for the ending, IMNSHO the raised foot should ONLY be used to mean, "Finish up what we're doing right now, as promptly as possible." If you want to do something more, like a tag, you need to signal it differently--rotating a finger or an instrument headstock, calling out the tag verbally, or whatever.

That said, a dismaying number of jammers don't observe this valuable distinction. It's one of my jamming pet peeves, along with people not knowing (or caring) how to kick off a song, or people just singing whatever harmony notes come to mind, rather than singing proper tenor or baritone parts, or multiple people trying to sing the same vocal parts.

Now get off of my lawn! ;^)

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

As usual, Old Hickory nailed it.

I'd add that you go straight from verse to chorus without extra measures; ditto for going from chorus to break. BUT going from a break into the next verse, you can linger on that root chord as long as needed/desired until a) the soloist has finished his/her string of filler licks, or b) the singer is ready to sing the next verse.

As for the ending, IMNSHO the raised foot should ONLY be used to mean, "Finish up what we're doing right now, as promptly as possible." If you want to do something more, like a tag, you need to signal it differently--rotating a finger or an instrument headstock, calling out the tag verbally, or whatever.

That said, a dismaying number of jammers don't observe this valuable distinction. It's one of my jamming pet peeves, along with people not knowing (or caring) how to kick off a song, or people just singing whatever harmony notes come to mind, rather than singing proper tenor or baritone parts, or multiple people trying to sing the same vocal parts.

Now get off of my lawn! ;^)

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As usual, Ira nailed it... 

Actually I’ve given up being annoyed at chaos at jams - there are not enough experienced players at ours to glue things together and /or play loud enough to drag “slackers” kicking & screaming into proper rhythm and song structure. I’ve tried introducing new, yet simple enough songs- even to the point of emailing a YouTube video and chord progression to everyone a few days before- but alas, “Jimmy Brown the Newsboy” and others entered quickly into train wreck/in the ditch territory.
To repeat ,, Hey you kids, GET OFFA MY LAWN !!

I've always thought of those extra measures as the time when you play time keeper licks, after all you are kind of the drummer in that situation. Follow the singer.

Fiddlers usually call this “potatoes “

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Fiddlers usually call this “potatoes “

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In my experience, "potatoes" is something quite different: a rhythmic pattern played to establish the tempo and key of a fiddle tune. It's almost never done for vocal songs, and only occurs at the very beginning of the tune, not after breaks in the middle of the tune.

Correcto Ira,

Bill Keith used that term often...Jack
 

I believe that the correct spelling is "taters".

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Originally posted by chuckv97

but alas, “Jimmy Brown the Newsboy” and others entered quickly into train wreck/in the ditch territory.

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Bummer! I love Flatt & Scruggs version of that song, although I've always wondered how it would sound on the banjo. 

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

What exactly is the situation, and what's happening?

Is someone else calling the song they're going to sing but you're playing the intro and not adding three measures of licks they're expecting before the singing starts? Is this happening every verse coming out of solos? Assuming you're playing backup, couldn't the rest of the jam just play over you if instead of playing three measures of G fill you're going to the C chord too soon?

Did you call the song, play the intro, and then sing without the three measures of fill licks? Well, as Sherry said: your call, your way. It's jam etiquette that they follow your lead.

Is it something else? I'd really like to know, because comparative jam dynamics is really interesting.

Of course you should learn the song the way this jam plays it. So you'll learn it and move on.

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I usually start with the basic 1 measure kick off followed by my own break which I learned from one of the BHO tabs. I usually don't do the extra G measures at the end of the solo but am considering to start doing them. Then I play and sing a basic melody line of the song. Then I usually look around for someone to take a break while I go right into vamping the chords, but if no one picks up after vamping the verse, I'll go right into singing the next verse. 

Question: Should I continue looping the verse vamping until someone takes a break or at least give it until the end of the chorus (2 full vamp rotations)? 

I think I struggle with keeping a consistent tempo and singing the lyrics precisely on the beats that they should be on. Also no one seems to want to take a break whenever I look around the room (though I'm still learning the "HEY YOU THERE, TAKE A BREAK NOW!" dynamic, even when I describe how easy the chord progression is. I've played BRCH twice since writing this post, once at my local jam and once at a Raleigh area jam (the veteran players of the latter jam were super helpful and supportive):

1) Last time at my jam, a few of the old timers decided to take a coffee break when I called it :*(  Maybe 1 person took a break who I've known to take a break to the song in the past, but I was shooting daggers and nodding at her to get her to take it. 

2) At the Raleigh Jam the bass player started singing with me to keep me consistent with his beat. I think people were singing along with me before that point though, it's still hard for me to "hear the room" when I'm in the hot seat. But it went better. And they affirmed that I need to keep a consistent tempo and land the lyrics where they need to be. 

I think going forward I'm just going to setup my trusty iPhone tripod stand and play the song on my music software app to help keep me in better time. 

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Fiddlers usually call this “potatoes “

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In my experience, "potatoes" is something quite different: a rhythmic pattern played to establish the tempo and key of a fiddle tune. It's almost never done for vocal songs, and only occurs at the very beginning of the tune, not after breaks in the middle of the tune.

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Is a kickoff a different thing then than these "potatoes"? Also can you use potatoes in a contextual sentence? 

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Originally posted by The Eclectic Banjo

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

but alas, “Jimmy Brown the Newsboy” and others entered quickly into train wreck/in the ditch territory.

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Bummer! I love Flatt & Scruggs version of that song, although I've always wondered how it would sound on the banjo. 

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Hi Dan,, here's my version 

https://share.icloud.com/photos/046AzuK9-QLFxQSf_jAcG-CHw

https://youtu.be/MTA6VxfaXEo?si=B2fud3UoBPKwSo2Q

Below are links to three different videos that explain the use and purpose of taters for fiddle tunes.

One Potato, Two Potatoes, Three Potatoes . . .

Here's an example of banjo taters.

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Originally posted by The Eclectic Banjo

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Fiddlers usually call this “potatoes “

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In my experience, "potatoes" is something quite different: a rhythmic pattern played to establish the tempo and key of a fiddle tune. It's almost never done for vocal songs, and only occurs at the very beginning of the tune, not after breaks in the middle of the tune.

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Is a kickoff a different thing then than these "potatoes"? Also can you use potatoes in a contextual sentence? 

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In my experience (several decades'worth), a "kickoff" is an instrumental solo that starts of a song. Most often its a verse played instrumentally, though occasionally it'll be some other part of the song . "Potatoes" are a separate add-on--NOT a part of the tune per se. Here it is in a sentence: "Let's start off 'Bill Cheatham' with eight potatoes."