Off the top of my noggin, I figure that so long as everybody is open and upfront [full disclosure??], it should be okay.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LNEU

If a person writes the lyrics and melody, is it acceptable to have AI record a demo? Any thoughts?

---

Good question. 
"acceptable" changes over time, and incorporating AI into our lives is just inevitable. People in the future may wonder why this was even a question. I think for the present, it's okay to do this but have full disclosure. People can form judgments about the song, less about the performance. 
Music, paintings and videos created entirely from prompts raise much larger questions about what is art, but that's a discussion for another day. 

I mean sure, if someone wants to.

Asking if it's acceptable is sort of an irrelevant question, these LLMs are dishonest thieves by their nature, they have already stolen peoples voices/playing to create the demos so go ahead, the damage is done. To me 'AI' is never acceptable in a creative environment but I'm sure many others would disagree with me on that and I don't think we can stop it taking over the creative industry.

In the example you mentioned then if I could write a melody I could play a melody and if I was a lousy singer I'd either practice or find someone to collaborate with.
But hey if someone gets a kick out of hearing their songs performed by AI then sure, just be aware you're standing on the bones of thousands of people who did the hard work for you and will never be compensated for their efforts.

I learned a bunch of instruments, learned how to record/mix, write songs, understand music, listen to a ton of everything to develop an 'ear' etc, live the best life I can so I have experience to write about... I did it because I love life and music and I respect what it means as a whole and understand I stand on the shoulders of giants and the other people who came before me.


I don't personally have time/respect for people who skip steps and aren't willing to put in time.


Here's the thing though...enough other people don't care so you'll probably do it anyway and we'll all have to deal with the fallout.

@banjonate am I to assume you have your own studio, own all the instruments and play well enough to produce a demo. That is very admirable and I commend you. However, some of us do not have those options. In my area, studio time is at least $250 per hour and local musicians expect at least $100 per song. Considering these prices with five muscians we are looking a $750 minimum to record one demo. After that, there is copyright and publishing fees. At that rate, my music can never be heard.

There is not many roads forward for most people. However, I do understand and totally respect your point of view. I appreciate you weighing in!

My knee jerk reaction is “I hate it”, however, if you wrote the song and this is a way to have it sound professional I’ll hold my criticism. I deal with other buskers who bring along a wagon load of electronic equipment, then play their mediocre solos on top of it. Egads… I and a few others stand there with only our instruments,, bare to the world… lol

quote:

---

Originally posted by LNEU

@banjonate am I to assume you have your own studio, own all the instruments and play well enough to produce a demo. That is very admirable and I commend you. However, some of us do not have those options. In my area, studio time is at least $250 per hour and local musicians expect at least $100 per song. Considering these prices with five muscians we are looking a $750 minimum to record one demo. After that, there is copyright and publishing fees. At that rate, my music can never be heard.

There is not many roads forward for most people. However, I do understand and totally respect your point of view. I appreciate you weighing in!

---

I didn't always have the option, so I worked (hard) for it. It didn't happen overnight (try decades).

Seems like everyone is too used to getting everything 'now'.

Whatever happened to putting a band together and then making a demo together? Getting out there (open mics, jams, etc) find people. Make connections...be part of a 'scene'/community?

Technology is amazing these days (without AI). You can do amazing things on the cheap. We used to make demos with a mic and a tape deck...You can make a demo on a basic computer/basic mic or even on a phone.

I see you've been a member here since 2006. What have you been working on all of these years?

@banjonate Not sure what you mean by the last line " What have you been working on all of these years?" Hopefully I am reading your post wrong but it seems like you are being snarky, judgemental and agressive. Or do you truely want to know what I have been up to?

My next question is when did BHO turn into an acoustic version of X?

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

My knee jerk reaction is “I hate it”, however, if you wrote the song and this is a way to have it sound professional I’ll hold my criticism. I deal with other buskers who bring along a wagon load of electronic equipment, then play their mediocre solos on top of it. Egads… I and a few others stand there with only our instruments,, bare to the world… lol

---

That is very interesting comment because I kind of feel the same way when I hear a busker using electronics and pre-recorded material.  I plainly see your point!

quote:

---

Originally posted by LNEU

@banjonate am I to assume you have your own studio, own all the instruments and play well enough to produce a demo. That is very admirable and I commend you. However, some of us do not have those options. In my area, studio time is at least $250 per hour and local musicians expect at least $100 per song. Considering these prices with five muscians we are looking a $750 minimum to record one demo. After that, there is copyright and publishing fees. At that rate, my music can never be heard.

There is not many roads forward for most people. However, I do understand and totally respect your point of view. I appreciate you weighing in!

---

That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LNEU

@banjonate Not sure what you mean by the last line " What have you been working on all of these years?" Hopefully I am reading your post wrong but it seems like you are being snarky, judgemental and agressive. Or do you truely want to know what I have been up to?

My next question is when did BHO turn into an acoustic version of X?

---

Yeah. Have you made other demos? Been playing? There's a lot of time passed since 2006. Seems like there's a rush or something now for you.

You're asking a group of people that think the pinnacle of banjo design was reached in 1937 and everything since then has been downhilll, so just keep that in mind.

There are musicians that consider using a capo to be an unacceptable "cheat". Capo's are even called "cheaters" in many circles.

AI is just a tool. Every musician uses tools. Unless you're just a solo acoustic singer, you're using technology to create music. Electronic tuners use computer programming to detect tone and display the note being played. Away from music, but in the arts, predictive computer algorithms have been used for DECADES to touch up video and photo. Band in a box? Looping pedals? Backing tracks? MIDI synthesizers? Tone shaping pedals? The list goes on and on. The only difference between us is where we "draw the line" on what's acceptable. But everyone uses it to some extent. 

Here's my thoughts: "Demo" is short for "Demonstration". If you're a songwriter or composer and you use technology to create a sound around what you've written, have you demonstrated your songwriting ability? I would say yes you have. Similarly, if you're an instrumentalist and you use AI to compose a song and write lyrics, and you record yourself playing, have you demonstrated your instrumental ability? I would say yes you have. If you're using AI to create banjo riffs and calling that a demo of your banjo skills, then obviously it's not legitimate because you're not actually demonstrating your skills. It all depends on what you're specifically trying to demonstrate.

People forget that music is about the SOUND. Nothing else matters. If it sounds good, it is good. If it doesn't sound good, it's not good. There's a lot of people that think quality is related to "how hard" something is. And if you don't struggle and toil enough, then your creation isn't legitimate. And that's 100% codswallop. Jealousy is a stinky cologne. Nobody that matters cares about how the sausage is made, they just want it to taste good when they eat it. It's all about the sound.

My avatar is AI. I use AI for all sorts of stuff. Did I "create" that picture? I don't know, maybe I guess. But it didn't exist before I punched a bunch of prompts into my keyboard. I took action, and something was created. Just like artists love to say, "Anyone could have done it. But I'm the one that actually did it." For me, I don't care if it's legitimate, or if it's truly art, or what anyone else thinks. I think it looks cool, and that's good enough for me. There's a lady that lets people look up her dress in a museum, and calls it performance art. If that's art, I don't see why AI music can't be. 

And who gets to say that “the sound” is good,,, mass marketing and heavy media exposure have people attracted to electronic noise,, a few pure notes from an acoustic instrument where a player touches the strings and pours his soul into creating a beautiful tone is art. The rest, imo. is electronic manipulation - art to some, f*rt to others.

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

And who gets to say that “the sound” is good,,, 

---

The audience. Different audiences like different things. Popular doesn't mean good. Obscure also doesn't mean good. But if there's an audience that says it's good, then it's good. That's the beauty of art. It's subjective. 

Question: If a Structural Engineer uses AI to perform Finite Element Analysis on a beam, is that person a real Engineer? If a Mechanical Engineer uses AI to perform Failure Mode & Effect Analysis on a new bearing design, is that person a real Engineer?

Thanks @KC Jones !

That is a great take on it and well put. When you actually think about it, you are very much correct that we, as musicians, use technology on a daily basis. What amazed me was how quickly it went from a simple question about the use of a now common medium to a personal attack by an unidenifiable avatar. Another example of technology.

I would say that if I do decide to use AI demo's, I would feel the necessity of disclosure (although it is pretty evident). Thanks for chiming in on this. I appreciate your post!

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

And who gets to say that “the sound” is good,,, 

---

The audience. Different audiences like different things. Popular doesn't mean good. Obscure also doesn't mean good. But if there's an audience that says it's good, then it's good. That's the beauty of art. It's subjective. 

Question: If a Structural Engineer uses AI to perform Finite Element Analysis on a beam, is that person a real Engineer? If a Mechanical Engineer uses AI to perform Failure Mode & Effect Analysis on a new bearing design, is that person a real Engineer?

---

The audience has been manipulated by, as I mentioned, mass marketing by big music companies who make stars out of mediocre singers because they look good and can act the role. Studio gimmicks that can auto pitch even Lester Flatt's vocals (!) and blend in a bunch of electronically enhanced sounds. I suppose it's creative, but to me it isn't music,,, but then,,, you know - HEY YOU KIDS, GET OFFA MY LAWN !!

IMNSHumbleO, everybody gets to say what sound is "good"  .... but there might not be complete agreement ... c'est la vie. 

I think another factor could be where the listener is on "the music totem pole" especially if the listener also tries to also make music.   F'rinstance, to me just about everybody is good; some others are pretty good and still some others are really good.  [And now you know!!  ]

All I can answer for certain is I don't want to listen to music that is made by a computer.

If it's everywhere, it has no value.

I have a limited amount of attention. I'm not willing to give my attention to music that was "performed" by someone who simply prompted a computer. It would really be no different to someone who paid a few session musicians to perform a piece then claimed that it was their own work.

Everybody doesn’t get a trophy in my world

I've reread your original question, LNEU .

It's not really up to me to be the arbiter of what's acceptable.

I wouldn't choose to listen to it. And I would know. I can always tell an AI "recording".

It's a demo! The purpose of a demo is to convey the idea of the song effectively enough that some artist decides to make a real recording of it. If AI accomplishes that, good job!

AI is only following prompts. It won't be the thing that the composer had in their head. 

It would be a bit like teaching someone how to do topiary over the phone.

With the AI that I have used, you need to input the lyrics and a rough copy of the melody. The AI then creates a voice and instrumentation to mimic the input provided. It doesn't create it's own melody or replace any words. It is quite the same since it uses your words and melody...thus my original question.

If you would like to hear a comparison, I have just uploaded a version of a song that I wrote and published. The Ghost of Roswell Jones is both in the original recording and in AI on my media page. The changes from the original are an added fiddle and a slight change on the chorus with the lead vocal. Other than than that, I dont see much difference. Your thoughts are welcome

When you use an AI agent, you might want to consider where the resource information is coming from and where the results of this interaction will go. In this situation, it seems like most of the input comes from the lyrics and musical notation you fed into the agent. What other information might the agent use to produce the result, and are you ok with that?

Once the agent produces the resulting recording, it now has that as part of its training. Is it a private agent, or will it share its training with others? Do you need to protect your creative rights?

I don't have answers to these questions for you, just things you might want to mull over.