The most enjoyable jams I’ve been to are ones where all the participants are willing to play as quietly as necessary so the featured singers and soloists can easily be heard. This is more fair and respectful of others. It helps keep everyone together and in sync. It sounds better, more musical.

I sometimes struggle to play my banjo quietly enough. I make mistakes. But I’m 100% onboard with the goal of getting quiet so the feature singer or soloist can be heard.

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

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Originally posted by writerrad

I wonder if anyone has ever done a history of the adoption of finger picks which appears to have been something that came in after WWII.  Earl Scruggs  several times advanced the opinion that there was a difference in the power of the older generation of players like himself and Ralph Stanley who had started out as 2 finger pickers and modern finger pickers without picks and modern finger pickers because without picks people developed stronger hands.  

 

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Jim Mills, who was not an academic scholar, but was a committed self-taught expert, believed that Dewitt "Snuffy" Jenkins was the first person to play Carolina three-finger banjo with fingerpicks on a Gibsom Mastertone. That would have been in the 1930s, I imagine.

I spoke to Jim some years ago, and he said that after he bought Snuffy's old banjo, he spent about a year trying to find out everything he could about the man, his music, and that banjo. Alas, Jim is no longer with us to comment.   ;^(

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Trischka and Wernick's Masters of the 5-String Banjo includes an interview of Snuffy Jenkins, and on page 6, he says:

"I think I've come up with some of it myself because there was nothing else to do where I was born and raised on the farm. Smith [Hammett] and Rex Brooks, I must have got it from them. I don't remember."

He says Smith Hammett used picks on the index and ring fingers, but Rex Brooks used fingernails. When asked who created the style, Snuffy Jenkins says is was from around Morrisboro or Ellenboro and suggests Trischka contact Ben Humphreys:

"Ben Humphreys. He said he knew for sure that Smith got it from a colored fellow, black. But it could have been started hundreds of years ago. I don't think anybody knows for  sure who started it. I'm getting credit for a lot of it, but I didn't do it. I got it from somebody else and he got it from somebody else from the way I understand. The only thing I claim is, I believe, and I don't know that for sure, that I was the first one to go on the air with it in 1937 because there wasn't too many radio stations back then."

But he also says Smith had "a little old banjo.... short neck," so it's possible Snuffy Jenkins was the first to play 3-finger style with fingerpicks on a Mastertone. 

But Snuffy definitely doesn't take credit for creating the 3-finger style.

Yeah, it's been ages since last I read that. To be clear, I wasn't trying to imply that Snuffy created 3-finger playing. But if you compare the meager evidence of his pre-1945 playing to that of other early Carolina players (I'm thinking especially of Mack Woolbright's "Home Sweet Home") he does seem to have had something different--and more like what we hear later from Earl--going on.

Three and often using 4 or as Gus Cannon 5 finger banjo playing was the most widespread form of banjo playing in the world in  early 1900s. The proper name for this form of banjo is "the guitar style," which was first systematized by five string banjo performers in the late 1840s and codified in banjo tutors by players lke the Great Frank B Converse across the 19th century.  If you went to anywhere where formal music was taught or a commercial music store, or a real music teacher and asked for banjo lessons, you would be taught the guitar-style of banjo. Major banjo entrepreneurs like SS Stewart and the Dobson Brothers before Stewart encouraged the guitar style, and brought massive propaganda and education teaching the guitar style of three finger banjo.

Queen Victoria herself--a real Victorian--sent her two sons who became kings and a daughter who did not take lessons in the guitar style with the famous Bohee Brothers at their London studio. The idea that Snuffy or someone started three finger playing is just ignorance.  Charie Poole for one played it, and banjo recordings in this style were among the biggest sellers of commercial recordings in the cylinder era.

Instruction and playing in the guitar style was particularly widespread in the Carolina Piedmont and especially widespread in the Mill areas, because the corporatist nature of the Mill Villages and mill towns, including music teaching operations along with the baseball teams, and other stuff, that blossomed in the late 19th century and the early 20th Century when many textile and garment and other factories moved from New England and other states into the Piedmont area of the Carolinas, Virginia, and Georgia. Mill hands like Charlie Poole and Earl Scruggs learned banjo from teachers of this style of banjo supplied by the mills.

Without going on about this, I would instruct someone really interested in knowing about this to read two great books. The more extensive one is Patrick Huber's great work Linthead Stomp which surveys music making in the cotton mill areas of the South from the 1880s to 1930s. A second source of this is the work that Bob Carlin has done about Earl Scruggs. Bob got to know Earl and talk to him about his banjo roots a bit when Bob was a player and at times road manager of John Hartford's band, because Hartford and Earl Scruggs were close friends and musical companions. If you Google it you can find work that Carlin did working with local people in the area that Earl grew up in documenting music making in that area on the NC/SC border particularly in the mills, including at least one picture of Earl along with other mill hands in uniform at the mill he worked in.

Three finger banjo was widely played by banjoists since the late 1840s. From the 1850s  it was the dominant official style of "proper" banjo learning, taken to extreme height by great banjo masters like Horace Weston, Converse, Van Eps, and Fred Bacon who were internationally known entertainers. It was certainly at the center of ragtime in both its early development and more articulate forms, with banjo recordings of ragtime out selling piano versions throughout the cylinder recording era, largely because pianos were hard to record on the cylinders.

Read Carlin and also Huber, as they both place Charlie Poole and the early Earl in the Carolina extension of this world-wide development. The reference to Parker and Woolbright's recording of "The Man Who Wrote the Home Sweet Home" are illustrative.  Bob Carlin told me that Earl could play the banjo part from that recording note for note because the banjoist who recorded it was a friend of his father and had family that lived near enough to Earl as a child that he heard him play it , 

I was lucky enough around 2010 to be at a party where Clarke Buehling and the late John Cohen played banjo on the NLCR's duplication of it. Clarke explained to Cohen and me that the recording had clearly used the widely propagated much more elaborate setting of "Home Sweet Home" by Converse as its model which in its public form was one of the masterpieces of the classic banjo era.The banjo playing on that recording was completely in the classic three finger style.

LOL I just finished giving a class at Fiddle Hell 10 minutes before joining you all there about placing our approaches to old time and traditional banjo in the reality of the international world of banjo playing that was created at the end of the 19th and early 20th century. Carlin and Huber will take you to how much the Piedmont Cotton Mill areas of North and South Carolina, Georgia and Virginia were part of that world in the first 30 or 40 years of the 20th century.

The more recent of the Bob Carlin books I referred to, a title that has too much been neglected is titled "What Earl Scruggs Heard: String Music Along the North Carolina-South Carolina Border," published by McFarland & Co. This book belongs in every proper home.

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Originally posted by writerrad

The more recent of the Bob Carlin books I referred to, a title that has too much been neglected is titled "What Earl Scruggs Heard: String Music Along the North Carolina-South Carolina Border," published by McFarland & Co. This book belongs in every proper home.

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My local public library has Linthead Stomp, so I put a hold on it. They don't have "What Earl Scuggs Heard," so I just put in a request for them to purchase it. I'll see if they do -- it seems about 50/50 with previous books I've requested. 

Thanks for the great suggestions!

Carlin is the straight shooter of all straight shooters.  He has written a number books as well as been a major banjo player, and compiler of albums of traditional musicians.  Even though he is known as a master frailer and studied the round peake style close up with Tommy Jarrell and Fred C and so many others, he has a reverence for bluegrass and a greater reverence for getting the facts right/

Concerning not playing too loudly,I like to play near the neck when I want the singer to be heard well.

Nice

Doesn’t this question and its answer just boil down to common sense?
In a Bluegrass setting, the idea is for each instrument to take turns in shining bright and everyone else backs off to allow it.
Jam sessions are a little different, so if you want to take part there has to be a fair bit of tolerance but there should still be some general etiquette and good manners.

I usually stay out of these discussions, but this has been a pet topic of mine for many decades so I'll put my foot in the door...

Yes, we banjo players do tend to play too loud.

To some extent it's the instrument itself, a well setup banjo of any style (sans mute) is going to be naturally louder than un-mic'ed voices and than most other instruments, perhaps with the exception of a tenor or plectrum banjo playing in an old-jazz band with horns and drums.

In bluegrass circles, the next loudest well-setup instrument would either be a fiddle or a Dobro, both which like the banjo also have a natural tone that cuts through the mix. A well setup mandolin or guitar can be loud, but with their less cutting tone, they tend to be pretty easily eclipsed by these other instruments. And double bass, which also because its low octave range may not cut through the mix, tends to get lost unless other players play their instruments with great...

!!! VOLUME SENSITIVITY !!!

It is one of the things that at least in my early years was never stressed enough by banjo teachers. Maybe it is now, I haven't taken banjo lessons in the last 50 years. But back in the day, it was just assumed that banjo players would learn how to control their instruments; some did, and some did not.

In a bluegrass band situation, banjo volume sensitivity is akin to politeness, and is key to getting along with band mates. If you want your band to succeed and last, your banjo player has to know how to control the volume of that instrument.

In a jam situation, as big a problem is the number of banjos being played. If I join a jam that already has two banjo players, I'll put my banjo away and get out my mandolin, or if there isn't already a double bass player I'll play that. You can have a bunch of guitar or mandolin players in a jam without getting annoying, but two banjos (or two fiddles,or two Dobros) is enough in a jam, period. And if those two players are not playing well among themselves, and playing with serious volume sensitivity, they are too many.

Another issue: having played banjo for 55 years now, like many of us here, I am personally experiencing hearing loss. To be fair, part of that is because of other loud things I either did for work or in hobbies, but banjo playing has at least contributed to this. At this time in my life where I am wanting to preserve my remaining hearing for music for as long as possible, I'm extremely sensitive about geographically where I am in a jam -- if a banjo player approaches anywhere near me, especially near my ears, I'll literally ask them to move -- and if I'm entering a jam I'll stay physically away from banjos. And I try to be sensitive about where my banjo is pointing -- I don't want to deafen someone else. As much as I love banjos, they are literally just too powerful to be near a person's ears.

When I used to teach banjo, I would post a framed saying on my wall:

WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY -- Voltaire

I really couldn't say it better.

A musician I deeply respect once told me:

"Anyone can play loud, only someone who has truly mastered their instrument can play at whisper and still produce good tone."

If you can't hear a vocalist clearly, such as you do on a recording, then the jam is no longer about creating "music" - you are just making noise...

I remember a sound guy looking at our one-mic setup on stage and making the astute comment, “They mix theyselfs!” Same way in a jam, or it should be.

Bluegrass is based on the way the old monural radio stations, and for that matter the pre-stereo recording studios were where there was one microphone because there were real only mono sound systems. It is not just bluegrass entertainers who would be going back and forth to the microphone, but in the big bands that were at the top of swing jazz the same thing was part of the music.

It is one thing pivoting to the microphone when you are one of 4 or 5 musicians in a  bluegrass band. It is quite another thing when you are in a 16 piece jazz orchestra.    Lester Young talked about how happy he was in the 50s when they had mutiple microphones, and he no no longer had to walk down to main mike was to take a solo.   If you listen to the big bands of the 30s and early 40s before this changed, you would recognize many of the arrangements were structured with intermediary sections to be played while the soloist liker could walk over from his seat in the reed section to take his solo, and perhaps another vamp afterwards for the soloist could get back to complete the section.

Bluegrass is show music, and vocals, and the solos are important but the whole band producing a sound is pretty important to bluegrass.  One of the problems of the jams is players dont get schooled in this side, how to sound appropriate supporting whoever is playing the lead or supporting a singer which is a practical skill learned skill. 

To one degree the old time and bluegrass mass jams mean many players nmever really get to know what to do when playing in an actual band.

Haven't jammed in quite a while (I'm 83) but I do recall being asked once NOT to play any backup other than muted vamping when the female vocalist (or anyone else) was singing, because my banjo was loud (which it was/is), and I did back off as much as I could. Because I ended up with nothing to do except play a break maybe every other song and then be quiet the rest of the time, I discreetly backed out of that jam and sought out other groups where I could at least participate. BOTTOM LINE: Never be intrusive, and this particular jam group "telegraphed" that they really didn't want/need a banjo.

Since I now live in a 55-older condo community I am very conscious of "banjo loudness" when I practice. To this end, I have a "banjo bolster" installed which helps hold down the volume, and if I deem in necessary (depending on time of day when I want to practice something) I use a homemade foam-padding mute at the bridge to REALLY kill the volume (but it also REALLY kills the tone, so it's kind of a last resort). I also use the bolster when practicing with someone else, and if they want more "banjo volume" it's easy enough to take the bolster off (although it is inside the resonator).

My "bottom line", as someone who has been playing regularly since around 1960, is to watch the volume and always be sensitive to not only the other instruments, but also the way the best pro players "back up" their songs. Earl had a great balance, as did many others, but always remember that too much fancy backup can "splash up" a good song, and whether Bluegrass, old-time, or folk, if it's a vocal it's all about the words, not the instruments!

A while back, I was at a song circle, where everybody gets a turn to play, and people may play along unless requested otherwise. A late arrival sat behind me with his Gibson Mastertone. E was so loud I couldn't hear my own (open back) banjo, or any other instrument, including 2 other banjos, or anyone's vocals. I asked if he had a mute, or could play more quietly. He got miffed, moved to the other side of the room, and played more than loud enough.

I talked to the organizer afterward, he indicated he'd talk with the guy. As we talked, three others stopped by to say they agreed with me, and thanked me for saying something.

Read into it what you will. All the advice here about being respectful is spot on.

This is one of the worst habits, not only for banjo players but also for all the other instruments in a band. Why the heck people beat their banjos to death is beyond me. You don't have to rip the strings off of the instrument to get it to say what it needs to say. The banjo is loud enough as it is, so why all the obnoxious volume? I've played in bands where people played so hard that the timing suffered, as did other dynamics like back-up and overall blended tone. I had a guitar player in my band, many years ago, who beat his old 1940 Martin guitar like he was angry with it. I asked him one time, "What did that old Martin ever do to you to make you want to beat on it?" In my band now, we all play loud enough for us all to be heard within the context of a band. The timing improves and so does the drive. If you talk to guys like Sammy Shelor, Ron Stewart, Ron Block, and others in that league, they'll tell you it's not necessary to pound away on your banjo. It's loud enough in and of itself. Probably a great way to develop carpel tunnel or arthritis.

Thank you.

the highly energetic Little Roy picking loud & hard….

share.icloud.com/photos/0b6_Qd...IlIpChy_A

I'm coming late to this thread, so I've read all the posts to see if anyone has mentioned what I see as the Number One Factor in this discussion, that many folks aren't aware of. And since it has not been mentioned, here goes:

The banjo is very *directional*. It sounds much quieter *behind it* than it does in front of it. That means that in most situations (especially outdoors where there are no reflective surfaces to bounce any "room" sound back) -- the banjo player *cannot hear* the same banjo volume that other people hear.

Sorry about the length of the following, but I've been forced to learn a lot about "managing banjo volume" -- a more important factor than most people realize. I'm speaking here of resonator banjos played with picks....

1. From behind the banjo, the banjo player is generally under the impression they're quieter than they really are.

2. The natural result: Many people in a jam circle often think the banjo is too loud, and they're usually *right*--  because the banjo is pointing at them. The only person for-sure with the banjo not pointing at them is ... the banjo player (!) and it's much louder in front of it than it is behind it.

3. That, I believe, is why some "bluegrass" groups don't use a banjo. The other instruments don't want to get stepped on.

4. And that I think is why banjo jokes are popular especially with guitar players, and the point of many of them is "banjo players don't *get it*."

5. I declare: EVERY banjo player should do the following little experiment, as I get banjo players to do at all my camps:

a. Play a little something typical on your banjo at typical volume, right hand only.

b. Now lay the banjo flat on your lap, pointing up at your face (like a dobro), Play the same thing.

c. WOW!! Didn't it get a lot louder??  NO!.... the banjo is ALWAYS that loud, and now you can hear what other people hear when you play your banjo! Don't just read this and not do it, please. If you DO it you'll see exactly what the point is.

6. Especially around singers! DON'T point your banjo at a singer when they're singing. DON'T. They may really want you to quiet down, but often don't because it's confrontational, and.... often the banjo player disagrees cause THEY're hearing the banjo quieter than really it is. This happens a lot!

7. The poster who said play your banjo at a mirror (or I'd say any wall) from a few feet away -- has it right. That tells you how loud you really are

8. At Wernick Method jam classes, everyone gets to play in small jam circles attended by a teacher or assistant. One of the most common corrections they typically make: Volume Management. Any instrument (not just banjos) might be too loud. A mando chop can be too loud, a D-28 can be played too loud. What's "too loud"? You all know -- if it's distracting in any way from *the main thing* -- singing, guitar breaks are when it shows up most often, and it can be any instrument. 

9. A good player stays aware of *dynamics*. There are times when playing backup when you need to stay back, to let lyrics be heard easily. During short pauses in the lyrics, it's fine to bring up the volume, and then back off again to stay well behind the singer.

9. One of my favorite comments on our student surveys: "I found out there's more than one volume on a guitar." I love that one!

10. On stage, standing to the right of Tim O'Brien singing lead in Hot Rize, or my wife Joan in our duet or in FLEXIGRASS, I learned to not just point my banjo straight ahead to the audience, but to point it several degrees to the right of straight ahead, so it would point somewhat away from the singer. It's a true privilege to play with a great singer, and to be respectful and get on their good side, it's a good move to take care to never play in a way that distracts them, whether with volume, or the content of what you're playing. If you want extra points, ask a singer or a good lead guitar player if they're OK with the amount and volume you're playing at. Even if they say "it's fine", you've just gotten an important message across: You realize that when they're singing or soloing, they're the star who has to be heard.

11. Absolute rule of backup: Your job is to help the music sound better. What's "better"? Anything that helps "the main thing happening" sound better and help the singer/player be more comfortable.... clear rhythm, play in a different part of the neck, be SURE to not be too loud or too busy -- they NEED to hear themselves, to be as good as they can be. Don't be an obstacle to that! The singer is carrying the ball for the whole song.... Help them!

12. When I play behind a singer or any soloist, I try to listen hard to them, not so much to myself. If I'm listening to the featured thing (voice or instrument), it's likely I'll play in a way to complement them.

OK... end of rant.

Again, sorry about the length here, but I've spilled all of this in hopes it will be a service to all players of resonator banjos using picks. Do the little experiment described in point 5. If you've never done that before, please do it, to educate yourself.

Brought to you by the BANJO ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE.

Pete

These are all great comments.

I attended a banjo workshop at a festival one time and the instructor had us all play Foggy Mt Breakdown as quiet as we could. It was interesting because I was used to playing very loud without thinking about the volume and how it fit in with the other Instruments.

:Well Paul  I also have lived in a 55 and over community here in West Palm  Beach Florida  since 2012.  However,we have our own house.  Moreover by this time of year the half of the population who are snowbirds from further North or Canada have returned. 

.  I have one of those bolsters on every one of my open back banjos .  I have had a good dialog with the maker.  The bolster is not designed to be a damper or a mute.  It does not make the banjo much quieter, but takes away some of the rattle and ping that all of the hardware inside the rim of a open back banjo creates, and smooths out the sound.

There are other devices that are advertised as dampers and mutes.  I dont use them much except when I am traveling and staying as a guest in someone else's house.   I do not see how you would use the bolster on a resonator banjo.

 Gold Tone sells two mutes  a regular metal lute and a fancier "lucci" mute for about 25 bucks that give a banjo a good tone.  I see other ones advertised that look the same that must act the same.  They are pretty good, in fact, the lucci sounds so good with the tubaphones that I sometimes put it on just because I like the sound.

In a pinch, like when I had to stay in a small town in Germany for five months, and lost the mute I had, a clothes pin can work pretty good.  The  old fashioned wooden pints with a metal spring that clamps tightly is the best, but the one that has a big slot will work depending on how thick your bridge is.    

However, the Lucci mute sounds good enough that I will sometimes put it on because I enjoy the sound especially with my Tubaphones

I have used towels to dampen the sound sometimes when playing with people in the house.

People should listen to Earl Scruggs, still the greatest banjoist around.  There are plenty of the Martha White Shows up on YouTube for the unfortunates who did not think to buy them when they were available as DVDs,  You can see how he supporters whoever has the floor as as an accompaniest, whether playing banjo or guitar, and his solo's shine not because he played the loudest, but because he had the best one, something he worked at since he was a chid.

Hi Tony! The bolster I use is a filled cloth "sausage-shaped" device that is put inside the banjo, against the head and against the rim & tone ring and held in place by the uppermost coordinator rod. Yes, it filters out some occasional annoying overtones as well as any "ringiness" from loose hardware (or noisy picks!), but to me, not having "loose parts" is (or should be) a vital part of the setup before any public performance.

I have found that by choosing the correct placement of the bolster it reduces the volume of a resonator banjo a small amount and gives it slightly less "punch", which reduces the banjo's ability to "drive" a sound into the listener. Since our condo buildings were especially designed for excellent sound reduction (because older people sometimes tend to talk louder and keep their TV sets "blaring"), the bolster supplies just enough sound reduction to ensure that it is completely inaudible next door. My wife's flutes (especially the "C" flute) are actually louder than the banjo and are barely noticeable even if a listener is immediately on the opposite wall. "Bolstering" the banjo is really just a bit of added insurance against being heard in the adjacent apartment of hallway.

With a well-seasoned, now 40-plus year-old 3-ply rim and a Tennessee 20 tone ring, my banjo would probably "knock bricks out of a building" - as the popular saying goes - without the bolster. I haven't made a habit of inserting/removing/inserting, etc., the bolster because it requires resonator removal to do that. I just leave it in place, and if I want the banjo to "stand out" I use a mike. If you watch the old Hee-Haw video of Roy Clark and Bobby Thompson playing "Weeping Willow" you'll notice that Roy's Gibson is louder than Bobby's Ome (with the dishtowel inside the pot). That's why Bobby really leans into the mike for his break.

My homemade mutes are the result of many years of trial and error and using every conceivable commercial mute available (I still have my first, purchased in the mid-1950s when I started playing). It's really a matter of tailoring the mute exactly to what I, personally, want to hear when I'm practicing quietly. I would not be at all surprised or insulted if that sound, to someone else's ear, REALLY sucked, LOL!

Bluegrass is an ensemble style of music and thus it is the job of every player to blend in and fill in to create a sound quality that is greater than the sum of its parts. And I don’t mean a sound quality that is LOUDER than the sum of its parts. If the singer is singing quietly, then the rest of the instruments need to quiet down. If the player taking a break is playing quietly, then the rest of the players need to quiet down and perhaps get louder in the spaces between phrases.
It’s true that at many or most jams, especially “slow jams” , folks singing are often a bit shy or lack confidence and sing more quietly than is optimum. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore them and play at a volume that does not fit well with the singer or soloist.
When we play back up on our Banjo, our job is to support the other players and the overall sound and presentation of the music. We should adjust our volume accordingly.

It's just like participating in a group discussion; don't take it over. Mingle, blend in, and give everyone else a turn at speaking, or in this case, being heard on their instrument.