My banjo teacher told me to go look/listen to Lester & Earl playing and particularly to Earl's backup. She wanted me to study it carefully, and notice how he never rides over any lead singer or player.
quote:
Originally posted by earlstanleycroweIn my experience it's not so much that banjo players play too loud; they just play all the time. They play when the softer instruments are taking a break. They play during every verse and chorus. If there are multiple banjos they don't take turns playing backup. They "vamp" even when there are other instruments capably fulfilling that backbeat role. They never allow the banjo to be missed.
"How often does that banjo come in?"
"So often you won't even notice it."
Banjo players don't all play the same.There is more than one right way to sound.
Edited by - steve davis on 03/29/2025 13:07:58
quote:
Originally posted by cottontopThe others at the jams do matter to me. My point of suddenly playing way loud in a frustrated immature way was to show them that I really was not playing too loud, was pretty pissed at their reaction and that I could play loud if I wanted to but instead chose to play at a reasonable volume. Remember I did say that being told to tone it down has only happened to me three times in over 20 years of attending jams. I must have been doing something right in those other 17 or so years.
Did it really achieve what you thought? That the others now agree you were not too loud? Maybe, but It's possible that your interpretation "too loud" was different?In how folks refer to how loud an instrument is, whether it's loud, compliment or critique refers to two different things, and context:
A. One is evaluating/comment of various instruments more in itself, isolation with no context. As one might do when shopping/trying instruments... evaluating how loud and/or projection.
B. The other is as other point out - about how it's played by the player and how it sounds in context; sits in the mix, (and room); relative other instruments/voice, in which you are actually playing; as well as the song, parts, and dynamics/range. It's not some abstract calculated formula, based on fixed dB of taking a break vs not... separately in isolation of instrument itself. It's cooperative effort, listening in the mix with the others, how balances and compliments, and adjust accordingly. Plays a role in their listening pleasure, can affect the overall feel, tone and groove; affect what/how play -and overall how fun vs struggle it is to play with those folks.
While most folks get idea of buying a good instrument equates or gravitate to being how loud/project as in A... While what many consider good playing is about ability/control of good reasonable dynamic range in B. (whether jamming, performing, or recording).
Granted B. playing with others, might require developing different listening skills (for various reasons). No matter the instrument, acoustically, single mic, or monitors; It can be difficult to perceive your instrument in context; truly what others hear. You can learn to get an improved sense of it though. Sincere honest feedback is one way that can be helpful...reflects their perception (such as mention "too loud"). Recording can also be quite informative (if set up right). Not all fellow musicians speak up and give feedback (jams or even performing band mates), for variety of reasons; so be careful to interpret that. (bit ironic with PA, as we can turn knobs to make it sound better for all, it's what sound check is for, but need to speak up)
Edited by - banjoak on 03/29/2025 15:23:43
The problem is jams. Jams are not sufficiently organized to think of how people are playing together, especially if you are playing a lead instrument or one that can be like bluegrass banjo. So what is someone supposed to be doing in a jam? Playing a lead, playing a solo, playing rhythm. It is easier when the jam is composed of 6 or 7 musicians, but there are jams with more than 10.
MY only participation in bluegrass jams is on guitar where playing rhythmic support is what I have been learning to do since I was 15 (77 now), but what seems to be banjo instruction for bluegrass today seems like banjo instruction I see in old time. A lesson, a lesson video, etc is all about playing a lead, a solo, a variation. Not much is on how to play rhythm, or what I call highlights, little runs the support the rhythm.
In old time "jams" you have so many people who have NEVER played in an actual band or even just a small get together with 3 or 4 musicians who work oiut HOW a tune is played. Most of the time, a tune is called by the person whose turn it is, but they rarely indicate at what tempo the tune is to be played even.
So what do you expect??? People who come to the jams do what they are directed or allowed to do. No on gives guidance. Of course, it is different when you have really experienced players and a core of them who have played together, or have played in bands.
The real thinking has to be reconnecting "jams" with bands or whatever appropriate performance group is required. Look at the video from the F & S show someone wisely linked to us. Each player knows exactly when he is going to come in for a solo, restrict his picking so another instrument singer can be heard, or when to take the solo, Each player has an organized relation to the mike or mikes.
quote:
Originally posted by banjoakquote:
Originally posted by cottontopThe others at the jams do matter to me. My point of suddenly playing way loud in a frustrated immature way was to show them that I really was not playing too loud, was pretty pissed at their reaction and that I could play loud if I wanted to but instead chose to play at a reasonable volume. Remember I did say that being told to tone it down has only happened to me three times in over 20 years of attending jams. I must have been doing something right in those other 17 or so years.
Did it really achieve what you thought? That the others now agree you were not too loud? Maybe, but It's possible that your interpretation "too loud" was different?In how folks refer to how loud an instrument is, whether it's loud, compliment or critique refers to two different things, and context:
A. One is evaluating/comment of various instruments more in itself, isolation with no context. As one might do when shopping/trying instruments... evaluating how loud and/or projection.
B. The other is as other point out - about how it's played by the player and how it sounds in context; sits in the mix, (and room); relative other instruments/voice, in which you are actually playing; as well as the song, parts, and dynamics/range. It's not some abstract calculated formula, based on fixed dB of taking a break vs not... separately in isolation of instrument itself. It's cooperative effort, listening in the mix with the others, how balances and compliments, and adjust accordingly. Plays a role in their listening pleasure, can affect the overall feel, tone and groove; affect what/how play -and overall how fun vs struggle it is to play with those folks.
While most folks get idea of buying a good instrument equates or gravitate to being how loud/project as in A... While what many consider good playing is about ability/control of good reasonable dynamic range in B. (whether jamming, performing, or recording).
Granted B. playing with others, might require developing different listening skills (for various reasons). No matter the instrument, acoustically, single mic, or monitors; It can be difficult to perceive your instrument in context; truly what others hear. You can learn to get an improved sense of it though. Sincere honest feedback is one way that can be helpful...reflects their perception (such as mention "too loud"). Recording can also be quite informative (if set up right). Not all fellow musicians speak up and give feedback (jams or even performing band mates), for variety of reasons; so be careful to interpret that. (bit ironic with PA, as we can turn knobs to make it sound better for all, it's what sound check is for, but need to speak up)
Answers.
Q,1. yes
Q, 2. yes
quote:
Originally posted by writerradThe problem is jams. Jams are not sufficiently organized to think of how people are playing together, especially if you are playing a lead instrument or one that can be like bluegrass banjo. So what is someone supposed to be doing in a jam? Playing a lead, playing a solo, playing rhythm. It is easier when the jam is composed of 6 or 7 musicians, but there are jams with more than 10.
MY only participation in bluegrass jams is on guitar where playing rhythmic support is what I have been learning to do since I was 15 (77 now), but what seems to be banjo instruction for bluegrass today seems like banjo instruction I see in old time. A lesson, a lesson video, etc is all about playing a lead, a solo, a variation. Not much is on how to play rhythm, or what I call highlights, little runs the support the rhythm.
In old time "jams" you have so many people who have NEVER played in an actual band or even just a small get together with 3 or 4 musicians who work oiut HOW a tune is played. Most of the time, a tune is called by the person whose turn it is, but they rarely indicate at what tempo the tune is to be played even.
So what do you expect??? People who come to the jams do what they are directed or allowed to do. No on gives guidance. Of course, it is different when you have really experienced players and a core of them who have played together, or have played in bands.
The real thinking has to be reconnecting "jams" with bands or whatever appropriate performance group is required. Look at the video from the F & S show someone wisely linked to us. Each player knows exactly when he is going to come in for a solo, restrict his picking so another instrument singer can be heard, or when to take the solo, Each player has an organized relation to the mike or mikes.
OK, so what's your point? You have written so much here that I can't make heads or tails out of it.
I like having an audience at our jams.Their reactions are good indicators of how we are doing.
We have a core "membership" at our jams so we have gotten quite used to each other over the years.
These things are built on over time.
The more you jam the better you get at it.
It's somewhat obvious that some are taking jams extremely serious. Jams aren't practice sessions for performances. The jams that I go to have people at all skill levels and beginners are given nothing but massive encouragement. Especially kids! Nobody takes it too serious and we all end up having a good time. It's almost more of a social event than music, but certainly centered around the music.
Indeedy, Jim ^^. I'm not so sure jams per se are the "problem." I realize that I'm frequently in the minority, but imperfection at jams doesn't ruin my day. Having said that, I generally advocate actual [maybe even structured?] teaching over simply waiting for somebody to catch on.
Edit: Unless somebody is in what's sometimes referred to as a "_ (music type/genre) desert," then I figure finding a satisfactory jam shouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle.
Edited by - Owen on 03/30/2025 09:20:42
The term "jam" is like saying "dinner party" - Some dinner parties are gatherings of sophisticated Ivy League professors who want to discuss the latest academic studies. Other dinner parties have a keg of cheap beer in the corner and superficial conversation about Tik Tok dances and sports. Neither is better; it just depends on which type of participant you are.
Some jams have folks who really care about band dynamics, improvising a tasteful arrangement, getting good 3-part harmonies, and sticking the ending, even if nobody has rehearsed beforehand. Other jams are all about everyone barreling through a song, playing and singing at the tops of their lungs, with little regard for achieving professional results. It's part of your job as a musician to figure out if you're in the right jam. If you decide to show contempt for the other jammers by imposing your version of how it should go, that doesn't make you correct- it just makes you the a**hole at the dinner party.
Great post. The problem is to have some kind of system that really draws players who are learning to learn better and get them to master skills that give them confidence and experience and direct them to skills that will make them better for the real requirements of playing. When I attended our local bluegrass jam, there was a sharp distinction between players who had played together in local bluegrass bands for decades and a few who came down in retirement now and then who had played in recording bands, and a layer of people who had never played in a band in any form ever. The later group on the banjo included at times one or two banjoists who were impressive in their solos, but did not know how to do much else and got in the way of oter players.
In old time jams, i find it worse. There are a whole layer of especially retired like me, banjo players whose entire training, including those who spring for private on line and on site lessons with good teachers, whose only education and ability is to play the lead portion of tunes, often tunes I have never heard a banjoist take a lead on. My own banjo learning in old time came after playing guitar in old time on and off since the 60s and spending a lot of time listenng to the real old timers.
Jams are a great place to learn how to get along with everybody and how to include everyone.
I don't play Caravan or Little Rock Getaway at a jam unless everybody wants those.
I tend toward 3-4 chord tunes at jams.
It depends on who is there.
Usually the BMAM jams offer advanced and beginner spaces to please everyone
quote:
Originally posted by banjoakquote:
B. The other is as other point out - about how it's played by the player and how it sounds in context; sits in the mix, (and room); relative other instruments/voice, in which you are actually playing; as well as the song, parts, and dynamics/range.
This is really good.
I lead a small jam limited to seven players and the two leaders. Here the goal is musical development. The other Seniors Centre jams seem to be as much social as musical (maybe more so). Here we focus (among other things) on what makes backup and what's the best way we can contribute without being overwhelming. The result is a group that works at improving their musicianship and having a good ensemble sound. Does it work perfectly? No, but the striving is the main thing. And it improves the social cohesion of the group. Having both leaders being banjo players (although I primarily play guitar) has certainly made us more sensitive to the volume of the banjo in a group setting (a lot more quiet "chunking"). As well, the size of the group enables more discussion of dynamics in the songs we're doing. (In the big jams there's no discussion like that.) It also makes one realize how long it takes to become proficient on an instrument, but becoming aware of fitting into a group doesn't take as long.
quote:
Originally posted by cottontopThese instances did not set well with me at all. All three times I just sat there, held up my hands and slowly removed my finger picks one by one and placed them on the table next to me. I didn't play then at all until it was my turn to lead a song and I made sure I played plenty loud just to show the other jammers what a LOUD banjo actually sounds like.
Wow. Looks like you're supplying the drama in these instances, as well. I'm sure you were the star of the show.
Edited by - Spudwheat on 04/01/2025 05:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by Spudwheatquote:
Originally posted by cottontopThese instances did not set well with me at all. All three times I just sat there, held up my hands and slowly removed my finger picks one by one and placed them on the table next to me. I didn't play then at all until it was my turn to lead a song and I made sure I played plenty loud just to show the other jammers what a LOUD banjo actually sounds like.
Wow. Looks like you're supplying the drama in these instances, as well. I'm sure you were the star of the show.
Obviously you weren't there.
I wonder if anyone has ever done a history of the adoption of finger picks which appears to have been something that came in after WWII. Earl Scruggs several times advanced the opinion that there was a difference in the power of the older generation of players like himself and Ralph Stanley who had started out as 2 finger pickers and modern finger pickers without picks and modern finger pickers because without picks people developed stronger hands.
quote:
Originally posted by writerradI wonder if anyone has ever done a history of the adoption of finger picks which appears to have been something that came in after WWII. Earl Scruggs several times advanced the opinion that there was a difference in the power of the older generation of players like himself and Ralph Stanley who had started out as 2 finger pickers and modern finger pickers without picks and modern finger pickers because without picks people developed stronger hands.
Jim Mills, who was not an academic scholar, but was a committed self-taught expert, believed that Dewitt "Snuffy" Jenkins was the first person to play Carolina three-finger banjo with fingerpicks on a Gibsom Mastertone. That would have been in the 1930s, I imagine.
I spoke to Jim some years ago, and he said that after he bought Snuffy's old banjo, he spent about a year trying to find out everything he could about the man, his music, and that banjo. Alas, Jim is no longer with us to comment. ;^(
quote:Thanks. It is interesting that today we think of picks as mainly associated with finger style banjo, but from the early minstrel days really up to the 1930s or 40s, stroke style or clawhammer or downpicking was associated with the use of banjo thimbles.
Many called it "thimble playing," I just put on my two the SS Stewart Styled banjo thimbles that Joel Hooks makes out of the goodness of his heart and his generosity to the banjo world. Even the lighter one is bigger and thicker than any finger pick I have seen and I have been buying finger picks since around 1964.
When i was researching the interviews people like Cece Conway and Kip Lornell did with the African American traditional banjoists of Va and North Carolina in the 70s and 80s, I noticed Rufus Kasey said he kept using a banjo thimble after they were no longer available in stores, and would have had one still if he had not loaned his to someone who disappeared.
When I retired and suddenly had time to really work on my banjo playing, I acquired a huge tubaphone ringed banjo custom made by Luthier Marty Spencer for friend with the charge of making the loudest possible open back. My nails were destroyed and I did try every known device including the old fashioned thimble until I learned about acryllic nails from Marc Johnson. I have the feeling that the thimbles worked much better before metal strings. I have seen Clarke Buehling play wonderful stuff with his thimble.
Originally posted by Ira Gitlinquote:
Originally posted by writerradI wonder if anyone has ever done a history of the adoption of finger picks which appears to have been something that came in after WWII. Earl Scruggs several times advanced the opinion that there was a difference in the power of the older generation of players like himself and Ralph Stanley who had started out as 2 finger pickers and modern finger pickers without picks and modern finger pickers because without picks people developed stronger hands.Jim Mills, who was not an academic scholar, but was a committed self-taught expert, believed that Dewitt "Snuffy" Jenkins was the first person to play Carolina three-finger banjo with fingerpicks on a Gibsom Mastertone. That would have been in the 1930s, I imagine.
I spoke to Jim some years ago, and he said that after he bought Snuffy's old banjo, he spent about a year trying to find out everything he could about the man, his music, and that banjo. Alas, Jim is no longer with us to comment. ;^(
As I understand it, the picks we use for bluegrass are not the same as minstrel- and classic-era thimbles, but are more like what Hawaiian guitarists of the '20s used.
This probably has to do with metal strings coming in. At the same time, we all forget the thimble playing of stroke style banjo players.
I have always wondered how much thimble playing continued or if it ended with the arrival of metal strings. Rufus Kasey, a wonderful Black Banjoist from Virginia Kip Lornell interviewed and recorded in the 1970s and 80s, told Kip that he had used a thimble even after you could no longer get them in the stores, and might be using one still if he had not loaned his last thimble to someone who moved away years before.
When I retired and started working harder on banjo playing, using a big tubaphone ringed banjo with medium gauge strings, working hard on down picking, my nails quickly disappeared. I have tried every pick solution for down picking and especially liked the reproductions of late 19th Century Stewart approved banjo thimbles that Joel Hooks makes. They are bigger than any of the metal finger picks I have acquired mostly as a guitarist, but quite comfortable. I sometimes do use them in larger jams.. They arent too good to use for finger picking because they are blunt and rounded for brushing.
quote:As I mentioned Joel Hooks nakes several exact reproductions of the banjo thimbles specified by SS Stewart for stroke playing. I just tried one out and they do produce a nice tone on a skin head banjo especially.
Originally posted by Ira GitlinAs I understand it, the picks we use for bluegrass are not the same as minstrel- and classic-era thimbles, but are more like what Hawaiian guitarists of the '20s used.
quote:
Originally posted by writerradquote:As I mentioned Joel Hooks nakes several exact reproductions of the banjo thimbles specified by SS Stewart for stroke playing. I just tried one out and they do produce a nice tone on a skin head banjo especially.
Originally posted by Ira GitlinAs I understand it, the picks we use for bluegrass are not the same as minstrel- and classic-era thimbles, but are more like what Hawaiian guitarists of the '20s used.
Yes well that's interesting. The Hawaiian music "craze" of the 1900s was a huge gloss all over American popular and folk music. Gus Cannon always referred to slide banjo and guitar which he learned from a Mississippi Delta guitarist as "Hawaiian." While he is famous for his wonderfully lyrical version of Poor Boy (and Blind Blake deserves some recognition for the sensitive guitar backup on that side), he tended to resent the way blues afficinados who came around him in the 60s and 70 wanted him to play that which required unstringing his banjo putting coins under the bridge to raise it so the strings cleared the frets while sliding, and then retuning it to play that. Not the kind of thing you really want to do a lot if you are doing street busking , a medicine show .
quote:
Originally posted by steve davisI like having an audience at our jams.Their reactions are good indicators of how we are doing.
We have a core "membership" at our jams so we have gotten quite used to each other over the years.
These things are built on over time.
The more you jam the better you get at it.
depends on who you jam with,, i tell anyone i have helped to play up, by that i mean anytime you can always jam with people better then you , then you get better. you learn and sometimes don't realize it until later.
We bring challenging stuff,but not to the detriment of being inclusive.
Hard to beat a good jam number like "Think of What You've Done".
Repetition breeds strength.
