I feel like part of being a good banjo player is learning how to turn it on and how to take it down. When I run across someone who isn't doing that, I think rookie.
That doesn't mean that I've never been told to take it down a little, but when I have been told I don't get defensive, because I can do that.
Bring your volume down until someone says "Play a bit louder,please."
About 15 years ago, I went to a jam advertised on Craigslist. About 15 or so showed up, and I was one of two banjos. The other guy was pro level talented, and blew my doors off. But ear splitting loud, and he never backed off. And we were in a private basement. That was the best lesson I ever got. I continued to attend this jam for several months, only I brought my old Goodtime. That way I could play with more abandon, without being “that guy” but still able to step up and play hard on breaks. Then one day I got an email, explaining that the whole idea behind the jam, was several guys were looking for musicians for their band, and the banjo job was mine if I wanted it. Since I was the last puzzle piece, the jam was cancelled going foreword. At our first band practice, I asked why didn’t they pick the other guy, who knew every song and lick in the universe. They were like hell no. They liked the way I added to the music without wrecking it. I also found out that he was the main reason they stopped the jam, once the band formed. I’ll never forget that guy.
Edited by - Dean T on 03/25/2025 08:36:19
He ^^ lives on in infamy!! I guess "Bad publicity is better than no publicity." is once again borne out. 
You've got to read the room and listen to the music. Some jams are louder and some jams are quieter. Good musicianship (and good manners) means adjusting your playing so it fits in.
I've heard demo tapes that were mixed by amateurs where one instrument is too loud compared to the others. When the CD player is on low, that instrument is too loud. When it's on high, that instrument is too loud. The issue isn't the volume, per se; the issue is the mixing.
In a jam, the only instrument you have control over the mix of is your own.
Mix your own instrument right: if people can't hear the banjo when you take a break, you're playing banjo too quietly. If they can't hear the guitar during the guitar break, then you're playing banjo too loudly. Playing banjo loudly is an important ability, but the point of a jam isn't to show off your abilities. It's to share music with others. If you just want to show off and don't want to change how you play to match the musical setting, join a talent show instead of going to jams.
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Originally posted by cottontopI have been to several jams where there may be several banjos or just my banjo. I have been attending acoustic jams for more than 20 years. During all of this time I have been told to quiet down my banjo on three separate occasions. These instances did not set well with me at all. All three times I just sat there, held up my hands and slowly removed my finger picks one by one and placed them on the table next to me. I didn't play then at all until it was my turn to lead a song and I made sure I played plenty loud just to show the other jammers what a LOUD banjo actually sounds like. My banjo has a wooden tone ring and I make sure I am not playing over anyone and I do a lot of quiet vamping when others are playing. I intentionally play a little louder than usual when I am leading a song or playing a break. One problem I see is that most jammers play way to softly and sing where you can barely hear them. I don't believe that I need to play more quietly; but that other jammers need to play more loudly.
Do "We" Play Too Loud?
The comments were about "your" playing, not mine or "we" not at the jam? Not being there to listen, can't have valid opinion of too loud.
BUT for people that were there, in that context; seems like it was "too loud" for them, as they said so. Along with your comments that most others are playing quiet; reinforces that you are playing louder than them; thus probably "too loud" for others in that context of group, and mix.
Not sure what the point of the exercise of showing them you can play louder was about, given they already thought the lower volume was too loud? Perhaps your point the others at jam don't matter to you, unimportant to listen to them; and just going to play independent of them, as loud as you want?
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Originally posted by banjoakquote:
Originally posted by cottontopI have been to several jams where there may be several banjos or just my banjo. I have been attending acoustic jams for more than 20 years. During all of this time I have been told to quiet down my banjo on three separate occasions. These instances did not set well with me at all. All three times I just sat there, held up my hands and slowly removed my finger picks one by one and placed them on the table next to me. I didn't play then at all until it was my turn to lead a song and I made sure I played plenty loud just to show the other jammers what a LOUD banjo actually sounds like. My banjo has a wooden tone ring and I make sure I am not playing over anyone and I do a lot of quiet vamping when others are playing. I intentionally play a little louder than usual when I am leading a song or playing a break. One problem I see is that most jammers play way to softly and sing where you can barely hear them. I don't believe that I need to play more quietly; but that other jammers need to play more loudly.
Do "We" Play Too Loud?
The comments were about "your" playing, not mine or "we" not at the jam? Not being there to listen, can't have valid opinion of too loud.
BUT for people that were there, in that context; seems like it was "too loud" for them, as they said so. Along with your comments that most others are playing quiet; reinforces that you are playing louder than them; thus probably "too loud" for others in that context of group, and mix.
Not sure what the point of the exercise of showing them you can play louder was about, given they already thought the lower volume was too loud? Perhaps your point the others at jam don't matter to you, unimportant to listen to them; and just going to play independent of them, as loud as you want?
The others at the jams do matter to me. My point of suddenly playing way loud in a frustrated immature way was to show them that I really was not playing too loud, was pretty pissed at their reaction and that I could play loud if I wanted to but instead chose to play at a reasonable volume. Remember I did say that being told to tone it down has only happened to me three times in over 20 years of attending jams. I must have been doing something right in those other 17 or so years.
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Originally posted by cottontopOne problem I see is that most jammers play way to softly and sing where you can barely hear them. I don't believe that I need to play more quietly; but that other jammers need to play more loudly.
One of the best pieces of jam advice I ever received: "If you think someone is playing or singing to softly in a jam, the best. solution is to play softer yourself, or back off completely." I have found this to be true about 90% of the time.
The jam that I attend most regularly (weekly) is almost all guitars and a couple of basses. I'm the only banjo. I am asked regularly to play louder so others can hear me. I play as loud as I can, but it's difficult to be heard in a group of 16 guitars. I do tend to play softly when it's a song that I'm not very familiar and I'm trying out several different styles of backup. Also, if the song has a lot of weird chords that I'm not very comfortable.
I have been to other jam sessions that had other banjos and some do play much too loud. I guess I'm not confident enough to be obnoxious. :)
Jams are all different, moreover, jams are often the opposite of what a playing situation in an actual band or performance would be. If you are soloing, then you should be able to play loud enough for everyone to hear you. If you are not, you should try to make your sound complimentary to whatever the lead instrument is doing. If that means loud get loud.
The problem of jams is that the atmosphere is different from say a performance by a band where you are working out what people are going to hear, who is taking a lead, who is backing up, etc, etc. To me the only worthwhile thing to do in a jam is to do what is going to give you more experience that will help in a band.
On the other hand if you are in the senior citizen category like me, someone may tell you that because you are not hearing well enough and not noticing how loud you are playing. That happened to me, and I am glad because I went and got a hearing aid that I make sure to wear when I play in a jam or otherwise.,
Jams vary. Some jams and music get togethers have established rules. Some jams allow the people to talk about how they wish to play and how they do not. Unfortunately, too many jams just start with no understanding of what you are supposed to do, what the purpose is or what not. This is the opposite of when you play in a good band, either old time or bluegrass. Many people who have never played in a band, do not know what you are talking about when you ask, "How are we going to play this."
Communication here is necessary. Because I am hard of hearing, especially if I forget my hearing aid, I will always ask people at the old time jam I go to if I am too loud. In bluegrass, I always played guitar.
It is good to have some CUMMUNICATION IN THE GROUP ABOUT HOW LOUD OR UNLOUD TO PLAY,
Communication with others in the group either formally or informally is the key.
About 10-12 years ago, I substituted in a professional old time band made up chiefly of Black professional musicians in jazz and soul when the one banjoist the only old time or bluegrass person had to miss travel gigs due tp his final illness
This band was made up of people who had been in James Brown's band, one fellow had recorded with Coltrane and Mira makeba and was also a Grammy winning song write and producer, and the leader, a fiddler had been in the Saturday night live band. When we got together to rehearse before traveling to a gig, there was always a formal discussion about how loud each would play, and where each musician or singer would sit or sta and if we were playing somewhere with a professional sound system, which instruments would be in the feed for the monitors for each player, and which musician had to hear which other musicians. The other members with real music credentials would get into varied discussions about that even though they had been playing together for years.
There was nothing automatic about it, but this was something to work out, even though everyone else but me in this band had been playing together in the band for years.
Too much of the jam culture that infests both old time and bluegrass is distant from this kind of approach. People need to learn to work out how they want to sound and what each instrument will contribute. Some of these big jams ought to break down into small band sized jams.
Just a side track here, but since I am the OP I think I can do it. About guitars in a jam. What the jams I attend need is a good rhythm guitar. Despite the fact that there are always two or three or even more guitars at the jams I attend., not one of them ever sets a good rhythm for the group. I think some of them are capable of it, they just don't do it. Instead, they all want to play lead and show the group that they can play riffs up the neck even when these riffs are not appropriate for the song. We need a good strong rhythm guitar for the good of the group. One reason Earl sounded so good was Lester's great solid back up rhythm guitar.
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Originally posted by cottontopJust a side track here, but since I am the OP I think I can do it. About guitars in a jam. What the jams I attend need is a good rhythm guitar. Despite the fact that there are always two or three or even more guitars at the jams I attend., not one of them ever sets a good rhythm for the group. I think some of them are capable of it, they just don't do it. Instead, they all want to play lead and show the group that they can play riffs up the neck even when these riffs are not appropriate for the song. We need a good strong rhythm guitar for the good of the group. One reason Earl sounded so good was Lester's great solid back up rhythm guitar.
Amen!
I just figured if I can't hear everybody else, the singer, or whoever is taking the lead, then I must be doing something wrong.
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Originally posted by BradskeyI just figured if I can't hear everybody else, the singer, or whoever is taking the lead, then I must be doing something wrong.
In a group of 15-18 players, it's almost impossible to really hear the singer. We try to play quieter but it's almost impossible with that many instruments. Singers need a mic!
Yeah well something has to be done about the jam culture in both old time and bluegrass so folks can do things that can help them get into normal playing. My experience is often figuring out stuff to do in large jams, especially when I played the guitar in Bluegrass and old time jams, would get me shot if I did in a band situation or even with 4 or 5 ace musicians at someone's home.
I know at banjo and old time camps that I have gone to, they sometime have what is called a band scramble. People are broken down in the separate instruments that could make up a small band of 3 or 4 or 5 players uusually one of the camp staff musicians in charge of each group, They spend time working out what tune to play and how to play it together. If there are enough days they might discuss and rehearse it in preparation. Then at one point everyone plays the tune before the whole camp audience togther.
In the old time world there are several musicians around the country who have string band classes. Instead of just teaching the banjo, fiddle, or guitar, they teach attendees how to play tunes together.
To me jams can lose their connection with actual playing in bands or solo. I do know a number of first rank performing musicians who refuse to play in these jams.
The bluegrass and old time music communities need to figure out ways to get new players to get together in conditions closer to those that the music deserves than these jams.
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Originally posted by trapdoor2I've given up on any jam with a PA. Most folks don't understand sound systems and they end up just setting everything on 11 because nobody can hear themselves. If I see a drum, I pack up and leave.
Amen.
I attended two jams at the Seniors Centre here in Kingston, both with the same format - mics, and lyrics and chords on a screen. What a mess. There was no attention to anyone else, people staring at the screen (or their tablets) whacking away on their guitars. Banjo? Didn't matter. So, when staff asked me, I started what they call the "Advanced Jam". First rule: no tablets or electronics. Only acoustic stringed instruments. Limit of seven people.
At the jam the theme is: backup is backup. Understand dynamics. Sometimes I'll stop playing, and that's a cue for the folks to recognize that the instruments are drowning out the singer. It's a treat to see them growing as musicians, becoming more sensitive to the others. And it's great to get away from the cacophony of jams with too many people and too little structure.
We had a Bluegrass jam here, mercifully gone now. It started out nicely, in an upstairs room at a local pub, with a small, intimate group. Unfortunately, we should have taken warning when our leader boasted that, "We had twenty people last week!" It attracted players who were unskilled, had no idea what Bluegrass was, had no idea of jam etiquette. It disintegrated into a noisy mess, especially when we moved to a larger space (the pub got sold and developed). The only saving grace was, when the numbers got big, some of us retreated to another room for a "proper" jam. (This, of course, deprived the others of role models, but it kept a few of us sane.)
The most important part of music for me is listening. You can usually tell when someone isn't.
quote:I have several iterations of the problems these posts speak and have seen some solutions. Once the Pandemic ended, the bluegrass jam here in Palm Beach County was overwhelmed with new people, some of whom really did not know much about bluegrass or playing their instrument, The main stem of this jam had been so very good players who had been playing in local working bluegrass bands since the 1960s or 70s, , leavened every now and then with very good players including folk who had been on records who wintered in our area.
Their solution was to have a separate newbies or beginners session before the main jam, and later to have the newbies thing at a separate night at the local library, while the main jam which is pretty much a retired persons schedule thing like lots of stuff here in the week a lunch time at a sympathetic restaurant.
There is a big problem of a jam that is open to all levels. If you have all levels, it is unattractive to good player
Originally posted by Paul Rquote:
Originally posted by trapdoor2I've given up on any jam with a PA. Most folks don't understand sound systems and they end up just setting everything on 11 because nobody can hear themselves. If I see a drum, I pack up and leave.
Amen.
I attended two jams at the Seniors Centre here in Kingston, both with the same format - mics, and lyrics and chords on a screen. What a mess. There was no attention to anyone else, people staring at the screen (or their tablets) whacking away on their guitars. Banjo? Didn't matter. So, when staff asked me, I started what they call the "Advanced Jam". First rule: no tablets or electronics. Only acoustic stringed instruments. Limit of seven people.
At the jam the theme is: backup is backup. Understand dynamics. Sometimes I'll stop playing, and that's a cue for the folks to recognize that the instruments are drowning out the singer. It's a treat to see them growing as musicians, becoming more sensitive to the others. And it's great to get away from the cacophony of jams with too many people and too little structure.
We had a Bluegrass jam here, mercifully gone now. It started out nicely, in an upstairs room at a local pub, with a small, intimate group. Unfortunately, we should have taken warning when our leader boasted that, "We had twenty people last week!" It attracted players who were unskilled, had no idea what Bluegrass was, had no idea of jam etiquette. It disintegrated into a noisy mess, especially when we moved to a larger space (the pub got sold and developed). The only saving grace was, when the numbers got big, some of us retreated to another room for a "proper" jam. (This, of course, deprived the others of role models, but it kept a few of us sane.)
The most important part of music for me is listening. You can usually tell when someone isn't.
Tony: "If you have all levels, it is unattractive to good player."
And, IMNSHumbleO, it's largely unattractive to players at the other end of the spectrum. One of the jams I attended [once] several years back was advertised as "all levels welcome, with the first hour a beginners' slow jam." They either made it through one song, or almost all the way through the first song, when somebody in charge (?) announced that was enough of that .... and the rest of the jam was "regular" speed. C'est la vie??
quote:
Originally posted by writerradquote:I have several iterations of the problems these posts speak and have seen some solutions. Once the Pandemic ended, the bluegrass jam here in Palm Beach County was overwhelmed with new people, some of whom really did not know much about bluegrass or playing their instrument, The main stem of this jam had been so very good players who had been playing in local working bluegrass bands since the 1960s or 70s, , leavened every now and then with very good players including folk who had been on records who wintered in our area.Their solution was to have a separate newbies or beginners session before the main jam, and later to have the newbies thing at a separate night at the local library, while the main jam which is pretty much a retired persons schedule thing like lots of stuff here in the week a lunch time at a sympathetic restaurant.There is a big problem of a jam that is open to all levels. If you have all levels, it is unattractive to good player
Originally posted by Paul Rquote:
Originally posted by trapdoor2I've given up on any jam with a PA. Most folks don't understand sound systems and they end up just setting everything on 11 because nobody can hear themselves. If I see a drum, I pack up and leave.
Amen.
I attended two jams at the Seniors Centre here in Kingston, both with the same format - mics, and lyrics and chords on a screen. What a mess. There was no attention to anyone else, people staring at the screen (or their tablets) whacking away on their guitars. Banjo? Didn't matter. So, when staff asked me, I started what they call the "Advanced Jam". First rule: no tablets or electronics. Only acoustic stringed instruments. Limit of seven people.
At the jam the theme is: backup is backup. Understand dynamics. Sometimes I'll stop playing, and that's a cue for the folks to recognize that the instruments are drowning out the singer. It's a treat to see them growing as musicians, becoming more sensitive to the others. And it's great to get away from the cacophony of jams with too many people and too little structure.
We had a Bluegrass jam here, mercifully gone now. It started out nicely, in an upstairs room at a local pub, with a small, intimate group. Unfortunately, we should have taken warning when our leader boasted that, "We had twenty people last week!" It attracted players who were unskilled, had no idea what Bluegrass was, had no idea of jam etiquette. It disintegrated into a noisy mess, especially when we moved to a larger space (the pub got sold and developed). The only saving grace was, when the numbers got big, some of us retreated to another room for a "proper" jam. (This, of course, deprived the others of role models, but it kept a few of us sane.)
The most important part of music for me is listening. You can usually tell when someone isn't.
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, Tony, our BG jam didn't work that way. I offered to lead an orientation session before the jam. The first (and only) time I did so, our leader (a rather inept mandolinist, fiddler, and vocalist) came and said we were starting, and broke up my session. It was like that. She gave extensive praise to players who were terrible. I didn't wish to be seen as unappreciative of someone who had re-started the jam. But it increased the feeling of frustration. I eventually left and found sessions elsewhere, just not Bluegrass nor Old Time. Running the "Advanced Jam" has put me in a situation where people listen and strive to improve. Small jams really are better, at least in my experience.
The first thing I thought when I read your post is that you must have some hearing loss.
Not trying to be mean but maybe visit an audiologist ?
Sometimes the one whose turn it is calls a name for a break at a couple of our jams.
quote:
Originally posted by OwenTony: "If you have all levels, it is unattractive to good player."
And, IMNSHumbleO, it's largely unattractive to players at the other end of the spectrum. One of the jams I attended [once] several years back was advertised as "all levels welcome, with the first hour a beginners' slow jam." They either made it through one song, or almost all the way through the first song, when somebody in charge (?) announced that was enough of that .... and the rest of the jam was "regular" speed. C'est la vie??
It helps to have a good player as moderator for a slow jam--someone who knows enough to veto tunes that won't work, or to make helpful hints to get everyone on the same page. And of course, someone to keep a lid on the tempos so no one gets left behind!
watch this and he will teach the proper method of playing in a group setting
Everyone with eyes an ears and a brain, but especially a heart, should chase down all of those shows that are available on YouTube. It is interesting to listen to the way that Earl Scruggs plays backup and rhythm while others are singing or while other instruments are taking the lead. Very much emphasis is made on his banjo solos, but the backup and support player he does are much more instructive. Most banjo lessons I hear about,a nd most of those I receive studying finger style old time banjo focus on playing lead versions of songs. Very little involves what a banjoist or any musician in a bluegrass or old time band should do most of the time, provide rhythm backup to other musicians.
Thanks for posting this Terry, especially as there may be unfortunate people on Earth who never saw this show and have not tracked down all of them that are on YouTube. In the past you used to be able to buy DVDs of them, but whether you play old time music or bluegrass, no one should be without all of the F & S Martha White shows they can get both for the enjoyment and for the music. If you look for them on YouTube, you can find about 10 or 12 of them!
Edited by - writerrad on 03/28/2025 11:44:37
