We used to have a banjo picker in our group who overpowered anyone in the group with his picking. He had no regard for whoever was taking a break and/or singing, he just banged away. He was also asked many times to tone it down and he ignored the suggestions. Eventually, the leader of the group suggested he find another group to jam with and he did. From then on, we had no problem with the banjo(s) being too loud, as everyone else seemed to understand that they weren't the star of the show and respected the ones who were leading, taking a break and/or singing.

Your case may be different than ours. Sounds like it is. Our whole group was very pleased that guy was asked to leave, got his feelings hurt and never came back. There are a few pickers like that.

Around here they do "circle/performance" jams, where you take turns on the hot seat [a.k.a. up at the mic].  When I'm not on the hot seat, occasionally  I'll ask the person next to me if my banjo is loud enough to interfere (?) with his/her playing.... so far nobody has indicated that it is.  I give 'em a nod and a .   Even less occasionally somebody in the audience has mentioned that they don't hear much banjo.  I typically reply something akin to: "Good ... just the way it should be."

I host a weekly jam since 2016. I sometimes cry/yell/ask to give the mandolin/guitar/singer/whoever’s soloing some space, and that works almost every time.

I’m pretty conscious about volume and who’s soloing when I’m on the banjo, and I’ve yet to be asked to tone it down. I don’t claim to be perfect though, and I can only hope someone will speak up if I step over the line.

The leader at my closest-to-home jam calls out "guitar solo!" when that's happening and we all know to back way off.

"During all of this time I have been told to quiet down my banjo on three separate occasions. These instances did not set well with me at all. All three times I just sat there, held up my hands and slowly removed my finger picks one by one and placed them on the table next to me. I didn't play then at all until it was my turn to lead a song and I made sure I played plenty loud just to show the other jammers what a LOUD banjo actually sounds like."

You showed them.  I bet they were sorry they asked.  Take that, jammers!  

"I don't believe that I need to play more quietly; but that other jammers need to play more loudly."

Seriously, to assess this and hear the total blend and balance, one has to be in front of all the instruments including banjo, rather than behind the banjo but in front of the other instruments.  Banjo always sounds a lot quieter from behind, as the sound directly from the head and off the resonator has a very strong forward cone-shaped projection.

To get an idea of how the banjo sounds to others, stand about 2 feet in front of a mirror, like a dresser mirror.  Not a plaster wall that can absorb or scatter a lot of the sound, but a glass mirror, that will reflect the sound waves with little loss.  Then play plenty loud and take a listen.

Total blend in an acoustic group takes a bit of tending to, for sure.

Hope this helps.

I've had a friend tell me I was playing too loud and too fast while just playing with him ! Him on guitar and me on openback clawhammer banjo.

He also asked once to see my mandolin (it's louder than my banjo) and I couldn't hear him from the next room.

And when I brought this to another friend he told me I don't play too loud or fast !!

It's all relative and I think people should learn to adapt...it's supposed to be fun !!

Just my opinion, but when pretty much anyone except a fiddle player is taking a break, I stop rolling. And if it's a particularly quiet instrument or individual, I tend to drop out all together. The other option that I like is vamping but with no chords. In other words muting the strings completely with my left hand to achieve a very quiet but percussive cluck.

This also makes your break really shine as you have pointed out. That's when you can really wake up the person sitting across from you :)

Sometimes though, you get people that want to control every little thing, which sounds like you may have encountered. That is incredibly annoying, however, you never know what's going on with a person on a deeper level. I think what you did by being yielding and respectful and not lashing out was certainly the right way to go :)

Ho boy a lot to unpack here. Banjos by their nature are loud instruments, but theres ones that have a lot of volume, mostly resonator types. And even then some are louder then others. At our local jam, one guy has a Gibson Mastertone and it is loud, capitol L, another one has a Nechville and its is decidedly not loud. Dont be the banjo that picks constantly; shine and speak forth on your break, lay back for the vocals and just vamp for others breaks. Then, who could complain, right?

At our open jam, which draws all sorts, we always announce the rules of the jam, every time. Among them are the above. First infraction gets you the 'glare', second time a pulling aside and talking to, and third time an invite to not return. Third time only happened once and good riddance (and it wasn't a banjo player!).

quote:

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Originally posted by TScottHilton

Just my opinion, but when pretty much anyone except a fiddle player is taking a break, I stop rolling. And if it's a particularly quiet instrument or individual, I tend to drop out all together. The other option that I like is vamping but with no chords. In other words muting the strings completely with my left hand to achieve a very quiet but percussive cluck.

This also makes your break really shine as you have pointed out. That's when you can really wake up the person sitting across from you :)

 

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That's what I do too - we can't both be wrong!

Edit: altogether

My mistake

I got out to a local jam last week — a somewhat rare occurrence, as the kid’s sports and other responsibilities have been dominating my free time lately.

I was one of only two banjos — the other gentleman, I believe transplanted from the UK, was playing an openback plectrum style (loved listening to him too). I don’t believe this group has a consistent reso banjo player.

I brought my main player, an ‘81 Gold Star Crowe, and it is LOUD. I’m a little self-conscious about it, so I stand near the back of the room behind the chairs… try to keep the rolling pretty light during singing along with some light vamping on breaks.

Coming across threads like this, it never hurts to walk away with a little bit of self-introspection. And for me — well I knowingly/willfully lose the conservative approach on my own breaks — probably playing too aggressive/loud and wanting to push the tempo. On the one hand it’s just how I (like to) play and is my turn to shine right??... but on the other hand it’s a little musically selfish.

There’s a fantastic group of folks in this particular jam, all super nice, and I’ve never been told to “settle down” — but next time a break comes around and I’m ready to sheer some eyebrows off with that cool little lick I’ve been saving… well, maybe I need to make sure I’m reading the room and perhaps bring it down a notch.

Along those lines OP, fair or not, perhaps there’s a way to make it work with that group. Fixing it probably starts when no one is playing, chatting it up before and after, finding common ground, developing some sort of relationship… playing music with others is a great feeling, playing music with friends even moreso IMO.  Maybe after taking some time to cultivate relationships, folks won't be quite so sensitive or quick to judge 

This reminds me of another post a couple of years ago in which there was a woman who kept complaining that the banjo was too loud even when the player was barely plucking the strings. She would even shush the banjo player like he was a little kid talking in a library. It goes to show that you can't please some people, no matter what lengths you go to.

Leading and Singing and Breaks, Oh My! 

Microphones?!  

I've only seen one dust up in an Old Time Jam. When two fellas could not agree to play a tune crooked or square. ...

... So we ALL agreed to play the tune both ways.

Praise Be to the OT Jam!

Interesting. It sounds like you are all attending bluegrass jams. I go to old time jams and mainly play claw hammer. There are generally no breaks at old time jams and few vocals, though it is not discouraged. Most tunes are played in unison. I find that with three or more fiddles, l can't use my quiet voice. With guitars and vocals some discretion is in order.

I've been to both extremes. Playing too loud (being shushed), not playing loud enough. The banjo tends to cut thru like a knife. We should be aware of our impact and play accordingly.

Our jam tends to be ignorant of volume. Everybody seems to be in their own space, trying to hear themselves...not listening to the whole. Therefore, when someone takes a break they don't back off...they raise the roof to hear themselves. We're really a pick-up jam, so nobody is leading. It is often hard to pry out what key somebody wants to play in.

I've given up on any jam with a PA. Most folks don't understand sound systems and they end up just setting everything on 11 because nobody can hear themselves. If I see a drum, I pack up and leave.

The best way to tell if you're playing at the correct volume is to play quietly enough so that others ask you to play a little louder... 

(Or worded differently, if you have to ask if you're playing too loud, you are...)
 

Many years ago I ran a slow jam and always gave new members a list of jam etiquette. The list is long gone, but this is what I remember being in it:

1. A jam is a group of people playing together. There is a leader and there are followers. Know which one you are and act accordingly.
2. If you're doing backup, remember: that's what it is BACKUP, not playing with the breaker or playing over him/her. Keep it quite and in the BACKGROUND.
3. If the guitar picker is taking a break, vamp quietly, maybe even muting the strings, only do licks at the end of a musical phrase if the guitar picker doesn't.
4. If the mandolin is taking a break, take his/her place as rhythm; i.e., vamp, vamp vamp, quietly, please.
5. If another banjo is taking a break, vamp quietly , if you do rolls, do them softly.
6. If the singer is taking a break, you can have a lot of fun with backup BUT do it quietly in the background so you don't drown out the singer.

I think there were more items but right now my mind has gone blank. I think those are good rules for any bluegrass jam and maybe any other type of jam, too.

It never hurts to ask others' opinion. Deciding everyone, including you, needs to be louder, sounds similar to a loss of hearing. In my 50+ years of jamming, I have heard more people complain of too loud banjos than too quiet, and have been thanked many times for not being overbearing with mine. I don't recall ever trying to show a group how loud I could be.

In this case, Joe, we'd really have to attend this particular jam to see what the situation is. I used to attend a jam when I lived in Fl, much like what Sherry described, where a banjo player relentlessly pounded over everyone, all the time, playing his loudest, as if he was always playing a solo break.
But then, there is a jam close to me here in NC, comprised mostly of old chaps, who play way too softly, and do not project when they sing. Nice guys, but they also only play VERY slow stuff. I stopped going, but my band's lead singer & guitar player still goes. He tells me that they always ask, "When in your pal the banjo player coming back ? We like having the banjo in the mix."
Those are the 2 extremes. Age is sometimes a factor, it might get harder for some to strum harder and be heard,... thats certainly true with singing.

Yes, I suspect there is more to all this than too many banjo players just play too loud and insensitively, since actually too many other players don’t project properly. Some of that is possibly due to hesitancy, inexperience or novice nerves - hunched over their instrument staring at the strings or a crib sheet on their knees. We all had to start somewhere, sometime, and at whatever age (teenager or retiree), moving out of the house to a public space means learning to project surely, if only out of respect for your audience. When you go to the theatre, even a school play, you don’t expect to see the actors whispering to each other and staring at the script all the time.

In my experience it's not so much that banjo players play too loud; they just play all the time. They play when the softer instruments are taking a break. They play during every verse and chorus. If there are multiple banjos they don't take turns playing backup. They "vamp" even when there are other instruments capably fulfilling that backbeat role. They never allow the banjo to be missed.

Wow...

You sound like a joy to play music with. 

My rule of thumb is: If I'm only hearing myself and can't clearly hear other instruments at the jam then I'm probably playing too loud.

I attend mostly old-time jams and in those (IMO) the fiddle should definitely be clear enough for every one to hear and follow. Often it can disappear under 3 banjos and a couple of guitars being played hard.

My observation (or hearing) would be that most people are trying to play loud enough to hear themselves clearly (and clearly can mean different things to different people), so the overall volume gets ratcheted up.

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Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

In my experience it's not so much that banjo players play too loud; they just play all the time. They play when the softer instruments are taking a break. They play during every verse and chorus. If there are multiple banjos they don't take turns playing backup. They "vamp" even when there are other instruments capably fulfilling that backbeat role. They never allow the banjo to be missed.

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This sounds like the "psychological make-up" (?) of banjo players is significantly different from that of other musicians.  I wonder if that's the case.

[As I previously noted, I play pretty quietly.  One of our regular jams is in SK.  A few years back when I was undecided about participating, I'd sometimes leave my banjo at home, sometimes take it, sometimes sit-in, etc.  One day, when I didn't take it, or maybe left it in our vehicle, a guy asked, "Where's your banjo?" I told him that I didn't have it registered, and they confiscated it at the boundary.  ... works every time.   ]

I got told one time in the 70s that I shouldn't play lead (volume and notes) all the time.
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got.
You should be able to decide for yourself without having to be told(more than once).
Learning where the balance is,is critical.