John. it seems you were born to be a banjo player. There is a common joke that most people think the banjo Always sounds a bit out of tune & awry, but players confidently feel they're in tune.

Although I can tell when I’m out of tune, I can’t hear notes the way my sister, the family music whiz, can. I can’t sing a lick because I can’t tell when I’m off key nor can I hear harmony parts. You should work on starting with a banjo you know to be in tune, then de-tuning one string somewhat, then try to get it back in tune by matching string pitch at the appropriate fret. If you keep after it, you should develop your ear enough to keep your banjo in tune. You don’t say whether you can sing. If you can sing on pitch and key, you’ll be able to learn to hear wen your banjo’s out of tune. Incidentally, even if you’re not changing tunings, banjos tend to need their tuning “cleanedup” every tune or two. They will drift enough to be audibly off.

Have you tried recording yourself whilst playing (or singing), then listening to the recording later on? You can often hear if any strings or notes are out of tune then, but be prepared to be shocked. I know some recording artistes can’t bear to listen to their own records.

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Originally posted by Jerry Hatrick

Have you tried recording yourself whilst playing (or singing), then listening to the recording later on? You can often hear if any strings or notes are out of tune then, but be prepared to be shocked. I know some recording artistes can’t bear to listen to their own records.

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When I was in Boy Scouts I worked summers at a camp as a swimming instructor and lifeguard.   As the staff we had "programming" for campfire and evening activities that included skits and songs.   I was told not to sing but to just mouth the words because as the assistant director said "you can't carry a tune in a bucket!"

When we are jamming and I'm picking away on my Gibson the wife glares at me and tells me I'm out of tune I just say keep picking your D45 and mind your own business.

A banjo player spends half their time tuning, and the other half playing out of tune. I don't have any helpful advice except listen to yourself & to the other instruments playing (if there are any).

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Originally posted by jsinjin

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Originally posted by Jerry Hatrick

Have you tried recording yourself whilst playing (or singing), then listening to the recording later on? You can often hear if any strings or notes are out of tune then, but be prepared to be shocked. I know some recording artistes can’t bear to listen to their own records.

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When I was in Boy Scouts I worked summers at a camp as a swimming instructor and lifeguard.   As the staff we had "programming" for campfire and evening activities that included skits and songs.   I was told not to sing but to just mouth the words because as the assistant director said "you can't carry a tune in a bucket!"

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Music comes as a gift from God for some, a hard-earned skill for others, and a life's work for those who find it difficult to integrate left- and right-brain functions.  Apparently, you possess the desire to learn the skill, but learning music demands that the student place himself or herself in the role of a beginner who must place trust in a very patient and accomplished instructor.  If you cannot humble yourself and place yourself in the position of a beginner in the hands of a skilled instructor, I refer you to Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice Act V, scene i, line 90.

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Originally posted by jsinjin

I can tell when I’m in tune with my tuner when I go string to string but I can’t tell when it’s off the way my wife and kids can.

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I'm also pretty new to banjo (on year 5 now), and what worked for me when starting out was practicing tuning.

I'd pick up the banjo, and pick each string listening to the notes: gDGBD.  Then I'd compare each open string to its adjacent string fretted such that they should be even (using frets 5,4,3,5 in G starting on the bass: D,D.... G,G.....B,B.... etc).  Listen for beat frequencies due to uneven tuning.  Then I'd strum the open strings and listen carefully to the chord made.

Doing the above several times, I'd try to tune the banjo.  For the first few weeks/months of this, I'd end up making it worse.  After getting frustrated enough for the day, I'd throw on the tuner and get it properly in tune for my normal practice.  Next day, rinse and repeat.

Doing the above slowly trained my ear for those subtle differences and what the "right" tunings sound like.  There's a quality to a chord that is perfectly in tune that I find quite recognizable now, even to the point where I disagree with my tuner about how to get it exactly right.

If I remember correctly you play mostly (only?) in open G?  I learned tunes in a couple different tunings starting early, so frequent re-tuning was a necessity for me, forcing me to go through the above process frequently.

I think it is easier with (relatively) new strings.

Sometimes I think pinching 1 and 5 and listening to relative spacing works for me. Then 1 & 3. Then 1 & 4.

2nd string never seems right but playing a standard run up on strings 2 & 1 (0-0, 1-0, 2-0, 3-0) is a test I do.

The harmonics like bugle call rag is also a quick test that my mind can use.

After all this, I look up and everyone went home apparently.

Piano tuners confidently* tell me that notes that are out of tune with each other make a "beat", a sort of wahwah sound as they go in and out of phase. You might try listening for that instead of trying to notice a minor change in frequency.

* - I can very rarely hear this (or imagine I hear it), so maybe they aren't completely pulling my leg.

Thank you kindly.

Thanks everyone! Responding to many: I do have an instructor that I meet with every week and she has full recordings of our lessons and a whole set of recordings, song breakdowns, exercises and lessons on Patreon that I use liberally.

Henry V act 3 scene 1 second line.

I have been playing a year and my favorite activity for practice is changing key and going through every chord I can in a type of scale practice and playing each note and fret and memorizing that then pointing to a note on piano sheet music and seeing how fast I can find it or get it from memory in that tuning on each string at the correct fret. It has no purpose but I really enjoy it.

I do have both a tuner and an oscilloscope and I can nail the tuning of my banjo on every string and indeed the tension is enough when even changing to a modal tuning from double D it can knock out other strings.

I do love frequencies and harmonics and with the oscilloscope I love to see how the strings overlap on chords.

But! As I was posting, I can’t tell when the thing is out of tune while playing. And it sounds like a few others can’t. If I don’t tune it up or check my tuning to a key with a tuner I have no idea if I’m in one tune or another or if my instrument is way out of tune. I could tell if the strings were so loose they were sagging but as far as hearing it being out of tune or in the wrong tuning, I’m amazed others can tell instantly. Especially my wife and kids (kids were home from college last week on spring break and let me know).

I’m really fast with the tuner and bought the best one I could find to help me dial it in and since I memorized many of the major and modal tunings I can switch to them quickly with the tuner. I just wouldn’t be able to pick up my instrument or any one and tell if it was tuned or not. I was seeing if others have this ear deficiency.

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Originally posted by jsinjin

I’m really fast with the tuner and bought the best one I could find to help me dial it in and since I memorized many of the major and modal tunings I can switch to them quickly with the tuner. I just wouldn’t be able to pick up my instrument or any one and tell if it was tuned or not. I was seeing if others have this ear deficiency.

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As a kid I was very fast at using a multiplication table.  As fast or faster than kids who could do it in their head.  I couldn't multiply in my head though, because I relied so heavily on a table print-out.

Did I have a brain deficiency, or a lack of education and practice due to reliance on a crutch?

 

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As a kid I was very fast at using a multiplication table.  As fast or faster than kids who could do it in their head.  I couldn't multiply in my head though, because I relied so heavily on a table print-out.

Did I have a brain deficiency, or a lack of education and practice due to reliance on a crutch?

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yes but after a full year of daily practice I still can't tell if two notes are different.   I used a piano ear training and never got above 50 percent.   Now in my PhD I did realize that memorizinf all the integral tables for an integration competition (which I won) was a hindrance since the shortcuts kept me from a later obvious algebraic error in my solution to a transform on an optical wave form derivation.  So yes one can rely to much.   But this is just a hobby, I quite frankly hate playing by ear and despite a full 12 months with daily practice I still couldn't pick out a C vs G as two notes at all.   Every time I take the quiz on brainjo with the instructor playing one version of happy birthday supposedly correctly and the other incorrect I just guess and after about 8-10 songs I get the response "are you sure you were trying, you did ok better than random chance".  
 

but I'm very very fast with an oscilloscope and a tuner.   And I absolutely have my multiplication tables memorized.

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Originally posted by jsinjin

  I was told not to sing but to just mouth the words because as the assistant director said "you can't carry a tune in a bucket!"

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You'd be real surprised to find out how many now-master-level musicians have had the exact same experience.  Sadly, "common sense" in our culture assumes that a sense of pitch is a gift that you either have or don't.  WRONG!

You have to learn that skill, and you still can.   Ask your teacher for some advice on that.  If they can't help you, or don't think it's all that important, you really need to find another teacher.

Making music is, like speaking a language, about hearing, distinguishing, and imitating SOUNDS.  You cannot make anything come out of your instrument that hasn't first gone into your ears, and been processed and perceived by your brain. 

The perception has to come first, and it will improve steadily with practice.  I've been playing for most of my 76 years, and (though I'm sure a test would show that the physical acuity of my hearing has diminished with age!) I'm still regularly surprised to hear new levels of detail in a favorite recording that I've listened to thousands of times before.

"...born to be a banjo player..." Ha! Out of tune, out of pitch and out of luck! My mother's side could not carry a tune in a wheelbarrow but my dad was a singer and harmonica player. I was told that when I was about 4 years old my mother was singing some song like Row Row Your Boat and I reputedly said, "No mom, it goes like this...."

Try singing even in your head in standard G tuning, "From this valley they say..." on open strings 4-3-2 and "Burry me not..." on strings 3-2-1. Some people are born with spot on pitch and timing. I'm not perfect but pretty functional, at least enough to be..."a banjo player." Ha! banjered

I have the opposite, I'm playing at a jam and I'm thinking, dang, I'm really out of tune. Then when the song is done, I switch on my tuner to check and I'm right on. Next song I think, dang, I swear that I'm out of tune.

I’m more fascinated by the idea of fretless instruments and tuning. I can with the oscilloscope tune to the banjo itself at the various frets for a given key and even listen for the overtones to vibrate in synch.

A friend has an upright bass and I can’t imagine finding the “spot” for the correct notes. Of course that goes for any smooth neck instrument from fiddle to yo yo Ma’s cello. I would have to put markers on the side of the thing to find the right points!

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Originally posted by jsinjin

I do have both a tuner and an oscilloscope and I can nail the tuning of my banjo on every string and indeed the tension is enough when even changing to a modal tuning from double D it can knock out other strings.

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Perhaps get one of the tuners that attaches directly and (semi) permanently to your banjo and leave it there.  And then make a habit of glancing at it frequently.  This way you are ALWAYS tuning.  There are some that are screwed into the back of the head, and some mount between the hooks on the pot.

Thank you kindly.

I keep it right here!

For BG above who suspects that "it is 'them' and not me after all." At our old jam the main fiddle player was a piano tuner and I guess he must have been cursed with perfect pitch. He was always saying, "It's time to tune up again." Poor fellow, he just know what he is missing to be a qualified banjo player. banjered

I have a friend who is an audio engineer and works as head of audio for a major sports franchise at both the mega stadium and their big practice facility. He has tuning fork pitch and often won’t even go to certain buildings like churches or theaters because the audio is terrible.

But he is one who bad tuning seems to actually physically hurt. I am the opposite where I can’t tell if a middle school-first week with their instruments and no background in music-orchestra is playing baa baa black sheep poorly or like musical savants.

Have you ever tried singing or playing individual notes against a continuous drone? It's the ratio of one frequency to another that makes the interval sound as it does.

Developing relative pitch takes time but IS a learnable skill. There is a few websites with tools to help you develop that. But its a 2 edged sword sometimes, in jam or with a band, I can tell which instrument and string is out of tune. But that doesn't mean the offender will retune for you! The other nite at a jam, I announced between songs 'Lets all check tuning please' but the offender didn't move a muscle. Had to glare the guy down, seriously, and re announce that before he got the message. The picker next to him thanked me after! When I pay banjo, I just have to accept some out-of-tuneness. I can see how banjo would not be the instrument for someone who has perfect pitch (which I do not suffer from!).

You highlight why jams are called jams. banjered

I once heard Bruce Molsky tell the following anecdote:

Q: How long does it take to tune a banjo?

A: Nobody knows, it has never been done!