I have no answer but thank you for voicing what I’ve wondered about for years. I’ll be following this. My friends and I play small places like senior centers etc, and we haul in a PA with big speakers, and monitors and all the chords and set up that go with it. It sounds ok. But still a PITA.

And then I go to the gym… and they have these little speakers, smaller than a shoe box, and they rock the place, very loud, crystal clear, and plenty of bass. Then I go to a bar/restaurant, and again I see little tiny speakers filling the place with every bit as much sound and bass as our big lunking PA system. What gives? A small mixer with a couple of these small speakers, would be PLENTY of sound for the small places we play. Are musicians getting scammed by old outdated technology?

Sound reinforcement can be confusing and complicated because so many factors affect the outcome. Light weight and simple are subjective terms. While I have never amplified my banjo, I have amplified my mountain dulcimers and guitars. First I would suggest using an amplifier designed for acoustic instruments. I use a Fishman Loudbox mini. My guitars have built in pickups, so it is just plug and play. You still need to adjust the channel mix for treble, bass, and volume as well as the master volume control. With the dulcimers I have used various microphones. The Sennheiser E 935 is one of them. It works well, but not as well as my MXL condenser microphone. My suggestion is to look in to a system that includes an acoustic amp and a condenser microphone.

A mixer gives you more control over shaping the sound which may improve clarity. I think boomy is more of how hot the signal is going in to the amp and speakers. Rather than worrying about speaker size, look at the wattage output of the speaker. I use a 60 watt amp which has been more than sufficient for all the venues in which I've played from a small room seating 30 people to larger room for 200 people.

To understand sound reinforcement and acoustics look online at places like Sweetwater and Musician's Friend to see what resources they have about choosing an amplifier and microphone.

From personal experience as the default sound guy for my last two bands (boomer rock and Celtic/Americana) I believe two main things: (1) a very wide range of PA equipment is capable of good sound for any band; (2) bad sound is almost always user error.

I don't want to go into all the mistakes I made and the few things I learned over the years. By the time I stopped playing out, I usually got our sound OK. Still only know a small bit about sound.

So for the type of room you're describing -- which sounds like what my Celtic/Americana band played the final 5 or 6 years of our existence -- I think one or two 10- or 12-inch powered speakers with a minimum of three-band EQ per input channel should be capable of giving you good sound. If you take the time to learn what the system is capable of and how to use it.

A mixer is necessary if the powered speaker doesn't have enough inputs (which it most likely won't for a group) and if its EQ is lackluster. A mixer also will certainly have pre-fader (channel volume control) input gain (sometimes called "trim") that you use to boost the signal from the microphone to something high enough for the channel EQ and volume controls to work with. One of the most important standard techniques I learned extremely late in my years of running PA is how to set both input gain and channel volume with the speakers off. 

A mixer can also provide effects, such as reverb, that a powered speaker may not have.

As to whether 12-inch speakers are only for bass, I wouldn't put it that way. In general, 12-inch speakers are going to sound more full than 10-inch speakers. They're typically capable of a wider range of frequencies. Being larger, they can move more air. Which means more volume. 12-inch speakers might be the minimum for decent bass -- if all the sound is going through them.

I played both banjo and electric bass in the Celtic/Americana band. For the pub gigs, I never put my bass in the PA. Just played to the room. For outdoor gigs, I put mics in front of the bass cabinet and guitar amps. Acoustic instruments used pickups. Sometimes we ran out of channels and used a sub-mixer.

Our vocal mics were Shure SM58. There's a reason they're the industry standard. SM57 is the standard instrument mic. Technically same as the 58 but with the diaphragm closer behind the smaller grille, which makes it better for instruments.

If I were to get back into gigging and needed to be the sound guy, I'd look seriously at one of the column array systems. The less expensive imitations of the Bose. I'd have to use my ancient mixer since no powered speakers have enough inputs for a band. They don't really have enough for a duo of singer/players.

Or a Mackie Thump or one of the Stage Right speakers from Monoprice.

I provided sound for my nephew's wedding in fall of '23 and spent a lot of time watching review videos on YouTube. In the end, one free gig was not enough to justify buying a new system, so I lugged my old-school stuff. There are scores of PA reviewers on YouTube. And just about every powered speaker you might buy has been reviewed by someone.  I like this guy's reviews. Very real world.

Good luck.

I've gone done a PA rabbit hole today! And found some interesting stuff.

If I were in the market, I'd give serious consideration to the Sound Town Carpo L2 400-watt column array (sub and pole) speaker system. $350 - both from the manufacturer and retailers (Amazon sells it, with free shipping for Prime members).

As I said in my previous message, I'd use this with a mixer. Sweetwater, MusiciansFriend, B&H Photo, Amazon and eBay are all good sources for small mixers. Here's a search at B&H for mixers with 4 mic inputs. I chose that because even if your two-man act uses two mics and your instruments are in pickups, the mic input channel will use an XLR cable and have the gain control I mentioned earlier. I think that's better for tailoring your pickup sound. And the more mic inputs, the more features and channels in general.

Sound Town has an L1 model for only $220, but it's lowered powered, has fewer speakers in the column, and even the positive YouTube video I saw said it was better for background music or small party.

Thanks for going down that rabbit hole, Ken. I don't know if you've helped Tom or not, but you've given me something to think about as I am considering updating some equipment.

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Originally posted by kwl

Thanks for going down that rabbit hole, Ken. I don't know if you've helped Tom or not, but you've given me something to think about as I am considering updating some equipment.

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Glad to have helped. I look at lots of stuff I don't intend to buy and have no use for, but tell myself I might want should I get back to gigging.

If you're thinking about spending money and you use pickups in acoustic instruments, something really worth looking into is a ToneDexter DI. ToneDexter learns the sound of your instrument through a microphone, then when you play through a pickup it uses the learned information to make the output from the pickup sound more like a microphone. The stored sound is called a wavemap, and you can store multiple wavemaps: for one instrument through different mics or different instruments. That way, you could use one ToneDexter for multiple instruments in a single gig. Just move the cord to the next instrument and select the wavemap.

Listen to episodes 152 and 153 of Picky Fingers Banjo Podcast, both devoted to ToneDexter. 152 is an interview with the developers. 153 is podcaster Keith Billik's shootout test of his banjo playing the exact same thing through different microphones, pickups, and ToneDexter wavemaps combining each pickup with each microphone. As he explains in the podcast, he made no adjustments on the ToneDexter, so all the EQ is flat -- which he points out means the tests show the worst sound you'll get, meaning adjustment can make each one sound better. And some sound pretty good to start with.

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I have seen several small bands and solo acts perform with the original Bose version of the column speaker with subwoofer. It's really impressive. I also saw one event where a pair of these were used but the venue was way too large and it just wasn't enough.

The best of these have their multiple small speakers in the column pointed in different directions, to create a wide soundfield. Bose promoted theirs as being wide enough to eliminate monitors! They also suggested each member of a band having their own.

So if you look at this type of speaker system, look in the specs for something that might be call "dispersion" or "horizontal coverage" or something else that might indicate width of sound. This will be in degrees. Bose claims 180 degrees. I don't think competitors claim that.

So effective monitoring for a band probably requires using a mixer to send a separate signal to powered monitor speakers.

UPDATE: Thanks for your responses. Somehow simple and portable seemed to get lost in the discussion. I tried a Kustom PA 50 which seemed ok for 20 minutes, and then would crank out zero vocal but instead a roaring fire static sound only. Really sounded like a forest fire.. Probably got damaged in shipping. So now I am trying a Peavey P1BT along with a Sennheiser microphone which so far seems OK. They have very similar simple operational setups, built by geniuses to be operated by idiots (that would be me!). I couldn't find any reviews of the Peavey. We shall see! banjered

We have a small setup using a Pignose Amp Hog 20 20-watt amp and Audio Techica 2020s or equivalent condenser mic. The app is nothing special, I think the secret to good natural sound is using the condenser mics. Also you would need a small preamp with phantom power with the pignose. Or just get a small powered 20-30W powered speaker with built-in phantom. Try any amp with a dynamic and then condenser and compare the difference. This works great for small indoor venues.
Rick

The local Guitar Center didn't have many options. I tried a couple powered speakers, $200 & $700. The $700 speaker was maybe 10-15% better but still sounded like sound out of a box, not worth the extra bucks for little improvement The Peavey is simple, time will tell if it is adequate. I had hoped the evolution of sound had evolved since I last tried amplification 20 years ago but it certainly hasn't got that much better in the interval, not on the low end anyway. Thanks for your feedback, the good kind. banjered

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Originally posted by banjered

I am looking for a lightweight, simple amplification system for a restaurant size room that accurately replicates the natural voice/banjo.

I went down to Guitar Center. The salesman recommended a Sennheiser E 935 microphone but to me it didn't sound much better than a Sure 58. I tried a $250 speaker but is sounded boomy and muddy with that mic. When I tried that mic with a $700 Electrovoice 8 speaker it sounded maybe 20% better/clearer. Would a mixer significantly increase clarity and a more natural sound while decreasing a less boomy-in-a-box sound?

I do not understand why some radios with a a small speaker can sound pretty good/natural so why does live amplification seem to require much larger speakers? Are 12" speakers mostly for base? How large a speaker would I need? Thanks! banjered

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Longtime "serious hobbyist" soundguy here.

First of all: the e935 is a great microphone. Whether it's the BEST for your situation/voice is another question, but suffice to say that you should be able to get good results with it.

Next: Other than setting the input gain, the first thing I do for ALL mics/lines is to set the HPF (high-pass filter that rolls off bass). For a male voice, unless we're talking about Barry White, you can easily roll off at 90-100Hz (and likely even a touch higher). For a banjo in standard G tuning, you can roll off up to 150 Hz. I'm VERY confident that this step alone would solve most of your complaints. Some powered speakers have this built in (for example, the Yamaha DXR10 speakers that I use for stage monitors have switches for OFF, 100Hz, and 120Hz). But some do not. AFAIK, all digital mixers offer adjustable HPF on every channel, and even cheap crappy analog mixers usually have an on/off button. Or, you can just turn town the Bass EQ knob (which are usually centered at 80Hz).

Using the HPF improves many aspects of your live sound, in ways that I don't have time or desire to type out. I'll just re-iterate that it helps a LOT and specifically addresses the issues you are hearing.

Do you need a mixer? If you want the best (or at least much better) results, yes. If you just want to make things louder, then I guess not. 

I started out with one system without knowing much in 1994, and after years of thinking I would need bigger equipment I realized that the big venues and festivals we play have their own systems and sound people. I started to go smaller, and several years ago saw and purchased the Kustom PA-50. I've never had a probably with it; I bought another,and other band mates also bought them, and we have used as many as four to cover some pretty large areas. Never had a problem with them, and I usually use a condenser mic for our whole band. I also purchased a 10" subwoofer to go with it, that makes a bigger system (I was surprised by the size, and the listed weight was not in pounds as I thought, but kilograms, making it difficult for this older guy who has had a couple heart attacks to wrestle with) which is not necessary but sounds good.

I also have a JBL Eon One because I wanted one with battery power for some remote gigs - it works well and has phantom power for the condenser mic. My 30-year-old Crate PA-6 still looks almost like new and works well for some larger gigs, although I have moved from 15" speakers to 12" speakers and now to 10" speakers We are pretty much covered, since the big gigs have sound systems and people to run them.

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Originally posted by mrbook

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I also have a JBL Eon One because I wanted one with battery power for some remote gigs - 

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Like many, I've been down that rabbit hole too many times over the years. I, too, am looking at the JBL EON One. Since my stroke, 25Lb. is my weight limit and this is 18Lb. I'm looking for it to replace my 10 year old (discontinued) JBL EON206P, a surprisingly good system that's great for small rooms and large back yards but a little too heavy @ 25Lb. and three pieces compared with the EONOne.

i also have a 5-channel Behringer 5 channel powered PA and a pair of Behringer 12" passive speakers system that isn't awful but doesn't sound great either. I can wrangle the individual pieces by myself. I've used it for small outdoor gigs and 150 capacity crowded rooms without a problem. In another thread I mentioned that Behringer spec sheets are entertaining works of fiction—don't believe them. Output is about the same as my JBL but I can run 5 mics in plus a 1/8" stereo music player for background. For $600 when I bought it in 2022, it was the best bang for the buck I could find.

Last weekend, I had a gig in a room where the power outlet was in a place where only wireless made any sense. I bought a pair of these: Xvive U3 Microphone Wireless System Transmitter+Receiver. Plug one into your microphone and the other into your PA. The self-contained rechargeable batteries use a typical 5W phone charger (not included) into a special USB cable that charges both batteries. The rated life of a charge is 5 hours and they were still going strong for me when I turned them off after 5 1/2 hours. 6 user selectable channels to avoid interference with a range of 90' (I only needed 30' last week). Sound pretty good.

I recommend getting a Hendrickson Bud 12. It’s got two channels, each accept either and instrument cable or mic cable, a great eq section, built in reverb on each channel, and a very full range speaker that preserves the natural tone of acoustic instruments and voice. Great for small gigs, excellent at low to mid volumes, but enough power to get loud and stay clean.

What's your budget?

Being frugal, I got a 60w two speaker pawn shop PA with 4 channels + auxiliary in. We use sm58s for vocals and sm57s for instruments. When we need more inputs I got a 6ch mini mixer. I use one of those little red carts from Harbor Freight to haul two speaker stands and all that junk plus my banjo. You need a power cord and microphone cords laying all over the floor. I can get set up in about 20 minutes and tear down is about the same. I reckon I have about $800 in it. My friend brings his Fishman two channel and we use that as a monitor.

If I had a big budget I'd get those Bose speakers that have the skinny linear arrays on top, a bunch of Wireless technology, some in-ear monitors, etc.