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Originally posted by gordo1100

Hi all,
My jam buddies are all experienced musicians. I have been playing banjo for about 7 years.
They love trying new songs every week, lately fiddle tunes.

Basic songs I can fake Scruggs style but I am still not so good at picking out melodies.

Songs like Big sandy River is way over my head.

I was thinking about learning scales to try to figure out the notes.

I found a G major melodic scale that I have been practicing for the #1 chord.
Is there a C major melodic scale I should be practicing when the chord changes etc, or do I stay in the G (#1) scale the whole song?
I don’t have any music training so this is kinda confusing.

Thanks to all.

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 I think you might find what you are looking for in Janet Davis' books. 

quote:

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Originally posted by gordo1100

Hi all,
My jam buddies are all experienced musicians. I have been playing banjo for about 7 years.
They love trying new songs every week, lately fiddle tunes.

Basic songs I can fake Scruggs style but I am still not so good at picking out melodies.

Songs like Big sandy River is way over my head.

I was thinking about learning scales to try to figure out the notes.

I found a G major melodic scale that I have been practicing for the #1 chord.
Is there a C major melodic scale I should be practicing when the chord changes etc, or do I stay in the G (#1) scale the whole song?
I don’t have any music training so this is kinda confusing.

Thanks to all.

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Check ot this guy he was taught how to play melodic banjo by Alan Munde

I would try to do fiddle tunes --if you see someone that plays one you really like and they offer a tab--that would do double service-fiddle tunes are all about correct emphasis--and getting that correct takes a while--there will be different ways that show up --this version of big sandy is faster and hopefully worse than I would play it now--a simple d up to a scale for the first part==then it does a phrase g- f sharp- g- a -b-a-g-b-all of this phrase gets move up 5 notes to C--then up 2 more notes to d--I leave out what ever it takes --the high runs cheat and use pull offs -to get a right hand help
none of this I claim to be correct or say you should follow--just describing my journey--

Tony Triscka put out a melodic banjo book decades ago. It got me started on that style

Mike Hedding does a nice job of explaining in this free video:

youtube.com/watch?v=YupFhi-x05I

Mike has great lessons including a complete course in melodic banjo.

www.mikeheddingmusic.com

I’m mostly a Scruggs style player, although I play Turkey in the Straw, Devil’s Dream, and June Apple melodic style. I play a lot of fiddle tunes in Scruggs style,,, they serve as a nice alternative to what the fiddler, mandolinist, guitarist, etc are playing. I play Big Sandy River in that style,, you don’t have to get into melodic style if you find it too strangely different. Earl played Cripple Creek, Sally Good(w)in, Soldier’s Joy (Old Folks), Sally Ann, and others in his style.

many players understand the overpowering exclusive merits of each style --we all have different taste and sometimes the setting calls for one style or the other---Monroe had many latterday players that played to the setting of the song being played
--note for note melodic style--seldom locks good with the fiddle lead simultaneous --because the bowing emphasis and the right hand emphasis of the banjo differ--a sparse version or chord rolls can sound better at that time
my opinion -I ask no agreement

Check out Pat Cloud's Keys to the 5 String Banjo. It has a plethra of information on melodic playing.

I bought the book years ago when I was at about an intermediate level and it was so involved that I put it up for another few years and came back and it made more sense. It's an excellent book, but at least for me, it took some time for it to sink in and understand exactly what he was doing.

Also, Alan Munde does a lot of melodic playing and as I remember most of his books have at least some, if not a lot, of melodic tunes and ideas in them.

Both Janet Davis and Eddie Collins have books on scales for the key of C and G. I can't remember if there's one for D or not. Both have melodic phrases that should help you with melodic playing.

I'm sure there are others, I'm just not familiar with them.

I also use melodics in non -fiddle tune music--sometimes a lick can have 2 or 3 styles to get it said --but that is just the way I probably -ruin it

If you plan to play scales when you jam with your friends, then, by all means, practice playing scales. If you want to join them when they play fiddle tunes, then you're going to have to learn some fiddle tunes that will likely require you to use some "melodic" style licks. I'd suggest that you start with Devil's Dream. It's not that difficult, and it has a lot of the standard "melodic" right hand patterns.  Below is a link to a tab of a good version in the BHO archive. It's a medley of Devil's Dream and Sailor's Hornpipe.

Devil's Dream

The ability to play a lot of close notes fast on the banjo, making them sound a lot alike, whether they do or not.
Not to be confused with chromatic melodic banjo playing.

Bobby

It’s certainly a case for using tab to begin with, as both the right and left hand fingering can be non-standard and weird. People usually learn a version of the tune and stick with it because if you get lost in the middle of a melodic break you are truly lost.

Yes,, I agree about getting lost by making a mistake,, it’s like memorizing a classical guitar piece, one has to practice it until blue in the face. I guess folks like Keith, Cloud, Trischka, etc. had/have a bag of melodic licks like Scruggs-style players have to avoid the “lost” dilemma.

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Originally posted by chuckv97

Yes,, I agree about getting lost by making a mistake,, it’s like memorizing a classical guitar piece, one has to practice it until blue in the face. I guess folks like Keith, Cloud, Trischka, etc. had/have a bag of melodic licks like Scruggs-style players have to avoid the “lost” dilemma.

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I think they avoid getting lost by not getting lost, Chuck. 

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

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Originally posted by chuckv97

Yes,, I agree about getting lost by making a mistake,, it’s like memorizing a classical guitar piece, one has to practice it until blue in the face. I guess folks like Keith, Cloud, Trischka, etc. had/have a bag of melodic licks like Scruggs-style players have to avoid the “lost” dilemma.

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I think they avoid getting lost by not getting lost, Chuck. 

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A more profound statement I've get to hear / read on this august forum, Laurence  

I've been playing melodic fiddletunes since the early 80s.
Most of my learning of this style has been in each successive tune learned.
Butch Robins BNL tabs,a bunch of books as in the Oak Keith and Melodic Banjo.

The first tunes were the most difficult,but once I got used to the keys of D and A with and without a capo the next ones came easier.
I have about 40 fiddletunes that I can play solo and find it fairly easy to play coherently along with new ones (unless the timing is challenging).

My point is learn a few (4 or 5) one at a time and find a fiddler that knows the tunes and play them with him or her.Get a new tune from the fiddler to practice at home.
Find the tab to some tunes...good tab.

Not getting lost or not staying lost simply involves knowing where you are and stepping back in,in time.

I think there are standard phrases that come in handy --for each current chord---I might have to resort to one or 2--but some of these talented improvising folks -can throw them together start to finish--I like to keep grinding on set arrangements --I never wanted to improvise --

One of the best books out there for Melodic Banjo.

amazon.com/School-Banjo-Bluegr...011A9BF6C

Like anything,once you play something enough times (CORRECTLY) it settles into your repertoire.
You absorb what it sounds like and where those notes came from.
When you get used to the placement and sound you are able to find other tunes that relate to those new habits.

Melodic style can be beautiful but has it's challenges. Pete Wernick had said he avoided it because it require so much practice, since it does not rely on common rolls, but each tune must worked out ahead of time and practiced over and over, that he was not willing to dedicate that much time and effort to.
My favorite players are those that can weave melodic phrases into Scruggs style, adding just the right spice to their music.
Ron Lynam of the Colorado band Front Range was very good at that.
Getting it up to speed has proved to be an insurmountable task for me.

here's some BIG SANDY

Thanks to all!

I have found "common rolls" within melodic phrases that reach into a range of fiddletunes.
Navigating in the keys of D,G and A tunes uncovers many similarities.

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Originally posted by gordo1100

I found a G major melodic scale that I have been practicing for the #1 chord.
Is there a C major melodic scale I should be practicing when the chord changes etc, or do I stay in the G (#1) scale the whole song?
I don’t have any music training so this is kinda confusing.

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Generally, you use the scale for the key. You do not change to a different scale for the chord. You just alter your starting or target notes to give your scale-based phrase tonality that fits the current chord.

I say "generally" because there are always exceptions.

For example, consider a tune like Salt Creek. While it's in A, I'll talk about it as if it's in G, since you're most likely to play it as if in G capoed two.

So: When Salt Creek goes to the F chord, which is not in the key of G, what do you do when you're playing melodically? You play a C Major scale -- changing the key of G's F# note to the key of C's F natural.  The "flat VII" phrases in Salt Creek are modal, I think. Outside the literal key of G (speaking of the virtual key, not the actual capoed key).

There are other exceptions. I don't know enough about music to know them.

Tony Trischka's "Melodic Banjo" book is a great self-learning aid. Almost as good is his "Hot Licks" book. It covers all the same basic melodic material. It just doesn't include any songs (which you can get elsewhere) or the articles on melodic players. His Hot Licks book actually includes some melodic ideas for certain chords that aren't in the Melodic Banjo book.

Good luck.