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martyjoe , a lot of people (more that a few here, I would imagine) have been using hemp WITH their banjos.
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Originally posted by Corwynquote:
Originally posted by mikehalloranquote:
Originally posted by CorwynDo we know what Gold Tone is using in their "composite" rims for the AC series?
Thank you kindly.The rim is a copy of the Bakelite rims found on old Harmony banjos but using a softer plastic (the Bakelite could break apart if dropped). Many companies are using this Chinese rim on low end banjos. As a Saga dealer, I can sell it as the Rover RB-20 (open) and RB-25 (resonator). 5-string, tenor and plectrum versions are available.
Back on topic, I can't imagine offering a carbon fiber tone ring nowadays. Why not just offer a pot with an integrated tone ring? Perhaps along more traditional lines than a CF retread of the old Harmony.
In any case, I see this as a solution looking for a problem.
So we still have no idea what is in that rim.
How is this not a rim with an integrated tone ring?
Clearly the problem is how does one make a cheap light banjo that still sounds reasonably good.
Thank you kindly.
It is obvious to me that it isn't an integrated tone ring by the profile of its top.
> In any case, I see this as a solution looking for a problem. <
I don’t know anything about working with CF. Maybe some one who knows can shed some light. I keep using the example of a Goodtime, as they are the most basic simple design. The wood needs to be selected, cut, dried, jointed, glued, bent, sanded, finished and fit, etc. Then over time it dries, shrinks, expands, warps, compresses, sometimes splits, glue joints fail etc…
What if Deering didn’t change the design at all, but simply decided to make the neck and rim out of CF instead of wood. How much more expensive is CF than wood? How much more or less time would be involved? Keep in mind with CF, the nut would be intragal, all the holes would be there, the fret slots done etc. No sanding, finishing, and very little fitting. Just assembly. What is heavier, CF or wood? Etc. just some of my pondering. What are some negatives? Having held and played the CF guitar, I can’t believe this isn’t being done yet.
Probably a dumb question but is CF the same thing as HPL(high pressure laminate)? I saw that Martin had made a Johnny Cash guitar out of it. martinguitar.com/guitars/custo...UdOaPaTdK
CF is different then HPL. An issue with a CF neck - attaching the frets and making them able to be replaced periodically. I work a bit with CF product developers, usualy stuff has to be glued into CF stuff, and once in, thats it. A CF neck would be a heck of a lot lighter, probably hollow.
gold tone ac-5 is composite and has no tone ring. The sound is very good for a $400 banjo. It's light weight, if they would figure out a tone ring it would be really good. I know 2 people who play the ac-5. One bought it to replace his Gibson while it was getting repaired. Probably played it
3 before the Gibson was done.
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Originally posted by CorwynSo we still have no idea what is in that rim.
How is this not a rim with an integrated tone ring?
Clearly the problem is how does one make a cheap light banjo that still sounds reasonably good.
Thank you kindly.
Other than being plastic and softer than the Harmony Bakelite rims of the 1960s, no one here is likely to know. You can buy one, have the plastic analyzed and let us all know.
There's no tone ring in this design to integrate. There are many lightweight banjo designs with integrated tone rings. Cast aluminum is pretty good for this going back 65 years. My loudest banjo currently is a 60+ year old aluminum Ode that sounds quite good.
There are many lightweight banjos that sound pretty good. For this discussion, sound, good and lightweight are all subjective.
Lightweight is not the topic of this thread, however. It's whether or not it's time for a carbon fiber banjo. I don't see that it will ever be anything other than a novelty.
CF can be strong and lightweight. I have an electric wheelchair that weighs only 34 Lb. that carts around my 270 Lb. frame pretty well. Not cheap, however.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 02/03/2025 22:11:03
Approach the question from a manufacturer and marketing standpoint, rather than from the perspective of a customer, and you will see why nobody has done it. I alluded to this in my previous post.
In order for a business to do move from the current model, the CF banjo must be lower in cost to manufacture than the current entry-level banjos that sell for around $200-$300. How does this happen?
The alternative would be trying to market a CF banjo as premium, like how bicycles are marketed, and charging more for it. I just don't think that would ever work, anything that isn't wood is going to be seen as low end to most customers.
I just don't see it, but maybe someone else does.
Edited by - KCJones on 02/04/2025 07:05:17
I could see it working as a lightweight alternative for a high-end banjo. The Emerald guitars are outstanding high-end instruments. I worked laying up Carbon Fiber oars and rowing parts in college, and once you had the tooling done, you could get moving pretty easily. I have also always felt that banjo tone had to do more with the shape of the rim in relation to the head more than tone ring metallurgy, but that is another discussion entirely.
If you integrated the tone ring into the rim (a la the Deering John Hartford), you could have a stiff, lightweight body. You could make the neck out of CF and use an ebanol or wood fingerboard (I don't think that making the frets out of CF is a good plan).
There is plenty of playing field in the $2-3000 banjo range, which is where I imagine something like that would sit.
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Originally posted by atrackslerI could see it working as a lightweight alternative for a high-end banjo. The Emerald guitars are outstanding high-end instruments. I worked laying up Carbon Fiber oars and rowing parts in college, and once you had the tooling done, you could get moving pretty easily. I have also always felt that banjo tone had to do more with the shape of the rim in relation to the head more than tone ring metallurgy, but that is another discussion entirely.
If you integrated the tone ring into the rim (a la the Deering John Hartford), you could have a stiff, lightweight body. You could make the neck out of CF and use an ebanol or wood fingerboard (I don't think that making the frets out of CF is a good plan).
There is plenty of playing field in the $2-3000 banjo range, which is where I imagine something like that would sit.
The grenadillo tone ring is not integrated into the pot on the Deering JH. It is a standard, 3-ply maple rim.
My bad on that, but you get the gist.
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Originally posted by wrench13CF is different then HPL. An issue with a CF neck - attaching the frets and making them able to be replaced periodically. I work a bit with CF product developers, usualy stuff has to be glued into CF stuff, and once in, thats it...
This is interesting. What would make a properly slotted CF neck, different than a wood neck, when it came to a refret?
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Originally posted by Dean Tquote:
Originally posted by wrench13CF is different then HPL. An issue with a CF neck - attaching the frets and making them able to be replaced periodically. I work a bit with CF product developers, usualy stuff has to be glued into CF stuff, and once in, thats it...
This is interesting. What would make a properly slotted CF neck, different than a wood neck, when it came to a refret?
It would depend on the glue being used to hold the frets, I suppose. Frankly, I've never seen a CF neck with an integrated board. All that I have seen use ebony, Micarta or RichLite with T-frets. CF bass necks have been around since 1979. I still have a Modulous Graphite guitar neck in my basement looking for a home. It has a flat fretboard like a classical guitar but I don't recall the material. I was goung to install it onto one of my Jazzmasters but never got around to it.
Mike, the CF guitar I got to play, mentioned at the start of this thread, does not have a separate fretboard. The entire guitar is one integral piece. The frets appear to be installed identical to frets on a Goodtime or Telecaster, and I just assumed a refret in the future, was routine.
From what I understand, CF in guitars took off in Southern Florida and the Keys where playing outside in the heat and humidity (and pop up showers) destroyed wood guitars. I wanted a banjo that I could take on trips and leave in the car during the day when I was working. Below is a picture of Impervious. I live and travel in South Carolina. It can stay in the car with the windows closed on the hottest days and has been left in the car overnight further north when temps in the car were well below freezing. It is a metal pot like what Ode used that JohnND sent me. Then Wayne at GoldTone added a graphite neck (bluegrass scale). This thing can withstand any conditions. I'm not going to say it is a tone monster, but that is not its purpose. It has been an amazing companion on trips you would never think of taking a banjo that has wood and glue.
I had a graphite neck on a Gold Tone BG-250F. The banjo sounded fine and the neck was "impervious to weather" (as the ad recited), however, the neck was too thick for my tastes and extremely heavy. I also have a graphite bridge which produces a really nice tone, but it is not nearly loud enough. Some years ago, I exchanged emails with Rick Shubb who suggested that I might try thinning the bridge. I still haven't gotten around to it.
Gols tone has never made or sold a CF neck. Their's is graphite, which is heavier that standard wood necks. There is a guy who has made at least 1 CF banjo, and you might be able to contact him through his brother at Kaestner Banjos. I tried several years ago without response.
Another guy in Ireland has made a CF banjo. I was able to contact him via a link a news reporter included in his article, but it was a surprise to the builder. His last name was Mannan.
Also, I've mentioned it before that I have a Gary Vann (Australia) tone ring in both my GDL and Golden Cross banjos, and I wouldn't change them back.
Somebody’s impressed….
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Originally posted by martyjoeKen Lavan was making carbon tone rings before he passed.
I had one! Sounded great, super lightweight. At the time I ordered it, Ken was excited about the possibilities of carbon fiber fretboards, too. He was inspired by Ken Parker and his Parker Fly electric guitar.
Brian Murphy , be careful leaving your banjo in your car! Someone might break in....and leave a SECOND BANJO!
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Originally posted by mikehalloran
My favorite version of that rim was in cast aluminum sold by Saga as the Rover RB-30 (open) and RB-35 (resonator). My daughter has the last one that I had in stock. People liked the combination of light weight and decent tone.
I bought a used RB-35 a few years ago to take on a late autumn sailboat cruise and to have as a lightweight travel banjo. I put a slightly heavy bridge on it to take the edge off some of its high end. Sounds great. Very playable neck.
I’m a geek about the woodcraft and custom shop banjos turning out a selection of high end pieces of art at a time. I showed an uncle of mine who is a mechanical engineer my banjo a year ago and his questions (he is neither a musician or a luthier, he worked in automation and fabrication for his life) were about the topic of “can’t you just take the exact measurements of any of these instruments and tool up the manufacturing to replicate the exact sound. Which I suppose you can.
Although I recall a beautiful set of articles from Texas A&M a few decades ago replicating the tone of a Stradivarius violin. Their effort went so far as to try and replicate the urine content to recreate the curing used in the 18th century instrument wood prior to the varnish. Eventually a conclusion from the work was that the actual old growth spruce no longer existed today on the eastward facing slopes and that actual grain wood had a lot to do with the tone. That’s a different discussion from replicating tone of course in a guitar or banjo as a sub 1000 dollar instrument and ultimately it’s in how you play and what you enjoy. My love is the art of the actual build of these complex instruments by the really brilliant luthiers.
Maybe a dumb question re. refretting CF vs. wood: Could the "old" frets in a CF neck be ground out?
[I'm assuming they're pulled/lifted/?? from wooden fret boards.]
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