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Jan 23, 2025 - 2:00:54 PM

banjonz

New Zealand

12230 posts since 6/29/2003

I have 'heard' (read somewhere) that these tone rings are an exact metallurgical match to the pre-war Gibson Mastertones and that Greg Rich sampled some from a ring and had it analysed and thus the specs as an exact match as possible??

Can anyone verify?

Jan 23, 2025 - 2:28:51 PM
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28450 posts since 6/25/2005

Even if there is a match, it’s with just one tone ring. Assuming Gibson turned out metallurgically identical,, or even similar, tone rings over the 12-14-year heyday of the pre-war Mastertone seems to me foolish. Then there’s the assumption that all the RK-80 rings have been and remain identical.

Jan 23, 2025 - 2:38:52 PM
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6161 posts since 5/29/2011

Gibson had their tone rings cast by a trolley wheel foundry. I seriously doubt that they used the same brass for each pour. Even with prewar Gibson banjos you can find a dud now and then. So the idea that Gibson had a formula for the brass they used in their tone rings is a little questionable.

Jan 23, 2025 - 2:49:17 PM
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151 posts since 6/6/2015

I had a well-known (I apologize for my much used term) ring maker tell me that most, if not all ring analysis was/is done by taking a much to small a sample size to determine the alloy of the pre-war Gibson rings. This maker told me that he cut sections (2"?) out of pre-war rings to get the formula he uses in his rings.

I think Mark's comment is more the case.

Edited by - Realbluegrassfan on 01/23/2025 14:49:53

Jan 23, 2025 - 4:09:21 PM
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5600 posts since 11/20/2004

I read the same story as you said, and while the formula could be the same, they are not equal in performance. My understanding is, the process of pouring is equally important and yet to be duplicated. The temperature and sequence of adding ingredients alters the results.

Jan 24, 2025 - 12:16:46 AM
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15149 posts since 2/7/2003

OK to stop any www myths from becomming reality i will related the facts. As many here remember I was the person who set up the original Recording King factorys in China for both acoustic guitar and banjo. EVERY detail went thru me.

Regarding the tone rings, when Greg worked at Gibson both Earl Scruggs and later Sonny allowed Gregto remove metal samples from their legendary banjos tone rings, and he had them analysed and formulas determined. This isnt news we discussed here many times.
When it came time to develope the hardware for the rk banjos we used a combination of some modern high end parts and some prewar parts for shape and design, AND WE USED THE FORMULA FROM EARLS GRANADA for the rk flathead tone rings. i know this for a fact because it was me personally who handed the paper containing the formula to the Chinese factory engineer, and it was me personally who had a tone ring cut up and checked at an elite lab in america.

Jan 24, 2025 - 10:39:20 AM

banjonz

New Zealand

12230 posts since 6/29/2003

quote:
Originally posted by desert rose

OK to stop any www myths from becomming reality i will related the facts. As many here remember I was the person who set up the original Recording King factorys in China for both acoustic guitar and banjo. EVERY detail went thru me.

Regarding the tone rings, when Greg worked at Gibson both Earl Scruggs and later Sonny allowed Gregto remove metal samples from their legendary banjos tone rings, and he had them analysed and formulas determined. This isnt news we discussed here many times.
When it came time to develope the hardware for the rk banjos we used a combination of some modern high end parts and some prewar parts for shape and design, AND WE USED THE FORMULA FROM EARLS GRANADA for the rk flathead tone rings. i know this for a fact because it was me personally who handed the paper containing the formula to the Chinese factory engineer, and it was me personally who had a tone ring cut up and checked at an elite lab in america.


Thanks for the final clarification Scott. When you sated that you have a tone ring 'cut up', you are not referring to Earl's tone ring? 

Jan 24, 2025 - 11:00:35 AM
Players Union Member

Emiel

Austria

10507 posts since 1/22/2003

quote:
Originally posted by banjonz
quote:
Originally posted by desert rose

OK to stop any www myths from becomming reality i will related the facts. As many here remember I was the person who set up the original Recording King factorys in China for both acoustic guitar and banjo. EVERY detail went thru me.

Regarding the tone rings, when Greg worked at Gibson both Earl Scruggs and later Sonny allowed Gregto remove metal samples from their legendary banjos tone rings, and he had them analysed and formulas determined. This isnt news we discussed here many times.
When it came time to develope the hardware for the rk banjos we used a combination of some modern high end parts and some prewar parts for shape and design, AND WE USED THE FORMULA FROM EARLS GRANADA for the rk flathead tone rings. i know this for a fact because it was me personally who handed the paper containing the formula to the Chinese factory engineer, and it was me personally who had a tone ring cut up and checked at an elite lab in america.


Thanks for the final clarification Scott. When you sated that you have a tone ring 'cut up', you are not referring to Earl's tone ring? 


I think, Scott is referring to a new RK tonering (prototype) that was made after the formula of Earl's tonering, in order to check the manufacturing process…

Jan 24, 2025 - 12:19:26 PM
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banjonz

New Zealand

12230 posts since 6/29/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Emiel
quote:
Originally posted by banjonz
quote:
Originally posted by desert rose

OK to stop any www myths from becomming reality i will related the facts. As many here remember I was the person who set up the original Recording King factorys in China for both acoustic guitar and banjo. EVERY detail went thru me.

Regarding the tone rings, when Greg worked at Gibson both Earl Scruggs and later Sonny allowed Gregto remove metal samples from their legendary banjos tone rings, and he had them analysed and formulas determined. This isnt news we discussed here many times.
When it came time to develope the hardware for the rk banjos we used a combination of some modern high end parts and some prewar parts for shape and design, AND WE USED THE FORMULA FROM EARLS GRANADA for the rk flathead tone rings. i know this for a fact because it was me personally who handed the paper containing the formula to the Chinese factory engineer, and it was me personally who had a tone ring cut up and checked at an elite lab in america.


Thanks for the final clarification Scott. When you sated that you have a tone ring 'cut up', you are not referring to Earl's tone ring? 


I think, Scott is referring to a new RK tonering (prototype) that was made after the formula of Earl's tonering, in order to check the manufacturing process…


Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think that he had but didn't know this extra bit of info.

Jan 24, 2025 - 9:27:45 PM
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15149 posts since 2/7/2003

Exactly both Earls and Sonnys original rings had fine shavings removed from the edges of a couple of the twenty holes, gently of course and enough for an elite lab to determine the formula.

Its also good to note the formulas of their banjo tone rings couldnt have been more different,EXTREME variation in content even though they were probable assembled at the same time. Shows the variation in the casting process as often talked about

Jan 25, 2025 - 8:45:25 AM
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ChunoTheDog

Canada

2407 posts since 8/9/2019

quote:
Originally posted by banjonz

I have 'heard' (read somewhere) that these tone rings are an exact metallurgical match to the pre-war Gibson Mastertones and that Greg Rich sampled some from a ring and had it analysed and thus the specs as an exact match as possible??

Can anyone verify?


I'd wager there's no chance of that being true because pw rings are in no way identically composited 

In other words it doesn't mean anything 

Edited by - ChunoTheDog on 01/25/2025 08:49:41

Jan 25, 2025 - 10:14:56 AM

RB3

USA

2254 posts since 4/12/2004

desert rose,

If the composition of the material samples of the banjos of Scruggs and Osborne weren't consistent with each other, did you consider the possibility that those elements that were present in the smaller proportions may have been there as a result of contamination during the casting process?

Jan 25, 2025 - 11:09:24 AM

banjonz

New Zealand

12230 posts since 6/29/2003

Jan 25, 2025 - 11:20:58 AM

5346 posts since 9/12/2016

I wonder how the ring ingredients compare from various areas in the same ring

Jan 25, 2025 - 11:53:09 AM

RB3

USA

2254 posts since 4/12/2004

banjonz,

Thanks for posting the link to the interview. I continue to be surprised that people who are knowledgeable about this subject continue to describe the material used in tone rings as brass instead of bronze. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc; bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Saying that a bronze tone ring is made from brass is like saying that a pork chop comes from a cow.

Feb 2, 2025 - 3:28:03 AM

15149 posts since 2/7/2003

Rb3 the reason why they are so different is well known, there are two or three main reasons, its not contamination at all its a combination of the fact that if you have a cauldron of molten metal, the longer it stays molten and waiting to be poured each metal burns off at different times, altering the formula and the fact that the foundry recycled the risers from castings back into the next pour

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