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I had a well-known (I apologize for my much used term) ring maker tell me that most, if not all ring analysis was/is done by taking a much to small a sample size to determine the alloy of the pre-war Gibson rings. This maker told me that he cut sections (2"?) out of pre-war rings to get the formula he uses in his rings.
I think Mark's comment is more the case.
Edited by - Realbluegrassfan on 01/23/2025 14:49:53
OK to stop any www myths from becomming reality i will related the facts. As many here remember I was the person who set up the original Recording King factorys in China for both acoustic guitar and banjo. EVERY detail went thru me.
Regarding the tone rings, when Greg worked at Gibson both Earl Scruggs and later Sonny allowed Gregto remove metal samples from their legendary banjos tone rings, and he had them analysed and formulas determined. This isnt news we discussed here many times.
When it came time to develope the hardware for the rk banjos we used a combination of some modern high end parts and some prewar parts for shape and design, AND WE USED THE FORMULA FROM EARLS GRANADA for the rk flathead tone rings. i know this for a fact because it was me personally who handed the paper containing the formula to the Chinese factory engineer, and it was me personally who had a tone ring cut up and checked at an elite lab in america.
quote:
Originally posted by desert roseOK to stop any www myths from becomming reality i will related the facts. As many here remember I was the person who set up the original Recording King factorys in China for both acoustic guitar and banjo. EVERY detail went thru me.
Regarding the tone rings, when Greg worked at Gibson both Earl Scruggs and later Sonny allowed Gregto remove metal samples from their legendary banjos tone rings, and he had them analysed and formulas determined. This isnt news we discussed here many times.
When it came time to develope the hardware for the rk banjos we used a combination of some modern high end parts and some prewar parts for shape and design, AND WE USED THE FORMULA FROM EARLS GRANADA for the rk flathead tone rings. i know this for a fact because it was me personally who handed the paper containing the formula to the Chinese factory engineer, and it was me personally who had a tone ring cut up and checked at an elite lab in america.
Thanks for the final clarification Scott. When you sated that you have a tone ring 'cut up', you are not referring to Earl's tone ring?
quote:
Originally posted by banjonzquote:
Originally posted by desert roseOK to stop any www myths from becomming reality i will related the facts. As many here remember I was the person who set up the original Recording King factorys in China for both acoustic guitar and banjo. EVERY detail went thru me.
Regarding the tone rings, when Greg worked at Gibson both Earl Scruggs and later Sonny allowed Gregto remove metal samples from their legendary banjos tone rings, and he had them analysed and formulas determined. This isnt news we discussed here many times.
When it came time to develope the hardware for the rk banjos we used a combination of some modern high end parts and some prewar parts for shape and design, AND WE USED THE FORMULA FROM EARLS GRANADA for the rk flathead tone rings. i know this for a fact because it was me personally who handed the paper containing the formula to the Chinese factory engineer, and it was me personally who had a tone ring cut up and checked at an elite lab in america.Thanks for the final clarification Scott. When you sated that you have a tone ring 'cut up', you are not referring to Earl's tone ring?
I think, Scott is referring to a new RK tonering (prototype) that was made after the formula of Earl's tonering, in order to check the manufacturing process…
quote:
Originally posted by Emielquote:
Originally posted by banjonzquote:
Originally posted by desert roseOK to stop any www myths from becomming reality i will related the facts. As many here remember I was the person who set up the original Recording King factorys in China for both acoustic guitar and banjo. EVERY detail went thru me.
Regarding the tone rings, when Greg worked at Gibson both Earl Scruggs and later Sonny allowed Gregto remove metal samples from their legendary banjos tone rings, and he had them analysed and formulas determined. This isnt news we discussed here many times.
When it came time to develope the hardware for the rk banjos we used a combination of some modern high end parts and some prewar parts for shape and design, AND WE USED THE FORMULA FROM EARLS GRANADA for the rk flathead tone rings. i know this for a fact because it was me personally who handed the paper containing the formula to the Chinese factory engineer, and it was me personally who had a tone ring cut up and checked at an elite lab in america.Thanks for the final clarification Scott. When you sated that you have a tone ring 'cut up', you are not referring to Earl's tone ring?
I think, Scott is referring to a new RK tonering (prototype) that was made after the formula of Earl's tonering, in order to check the manufacturing process…
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think that he had but didn't know this extra bit of info.
Exactly both Earls and Sonnys original rings had fine shavings removed from the edges of a couple of the twenty holes, gently of course and enough for an elite lab to determine the formula.
Its also good to note the formulas of their banjo tone rings couldnt have been more different,EXTREME variation in content even though they were probable assembled at the same time. Shows the variation in the casting process as often talked about
quote:
Originally posted by banjonzI have 'heard' (read somewhere) that these tone rings are an exact metallurgical match to the pre-war Gibson Mastertones and that Greg Rich sampled some from a ring and had it analysed and thus the specs as an exact match as possible??
Can anyone verify?
I'd wager there's no chance of that being true because pw rings are in no way identically composited
In other words it doesn't mean anything
Edited by - ChunoTheDog on 01/25/2025 08:49:41
desert rose,
If the composition of the material samples of the banjos of Scruggs and Osborne weren't consistent with each other, did you consider the possibility that those elements that were present in the smaller proportions may have been there as a result of contamination during the casting process?
banjonz,
Thanks for posting the link to the interview. I continue to be surprised that people who are knowledgeable about this subject continue to describe the material used in tone rings as brass instead of bronze. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc; bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Saying that a bronze tone ring is made from brass is like saying that a pork chop comes from a cow.
Rb3 the reason why they are so different is well known, there are two or three main reasons, its not contamination at all its a combination of the fact that if you have a cauldron of molten metal, the longer it stays molten and waiting to be poured each metal burns off at different times, altering the formula and the fact that the foundry recycled the risers from castings back into the next pour