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For some time now, my 3rd string's behaviour has been a mystery to me.
I typically tune it to double C (well slacked down to double B). When I set the pitch on the open string with an electronic clip on tuner and press on the first few frets, they're incredibly sharp. When I tune down the string to suit the frets I most frequently use in a particular song, the open string is flat and dull. I can't find a happy medium.
The intonation of the other four strings (from the 12th fret) are spot on.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to trouble shoot this? I'm using a typical grover bridge. I haven't tried switching out the bridge yet but I do have some others I can try out.
For fun's sake, you can also try swapping out your third string for another one. Kind of like restarting your computer when it freezes, sometimes it just works. Otherwise, as already suggested, checking the nut slot on the third string or getting a compensated bridge, are really two of the three main things you can do. The third is to simply live with it. I was taught to make sure the first and fourth strings fretted at the 12th fret are in tune with the 12th fret harmonics, and just let the second and third strings do what they do. Banjos are notoriously difficult to tune and looking for perfection will just drive you mad.
Not that complicated -- your bridge is improperly positioned. From the description, it needs to be moved in the direction of the tailpiece.
Start with the third string. Slide the entire bridge toward the tailpiece, checking open and 12th fret intonation as you go. When the string intonates properly open and at the 12th fret, that's where the 3rd string slot of the bridge needs to be.
Now move to the 1st string. Adjust intonation by *rotating* the bridge around the center point 3rd string slot. That is, don't slide the entire bridge any more. Just move the 1st string end of it, as though the 3rd string slot of the bridge is pinned into position. More often than not, the 1st string end of the bridge will end up angled slightly back toward the nut.
Finally check the 4th string. Adjust intonation by slightly tweaking 4th/5th string end of the bridge, keeping the 3rd and 1st string slots as close as possible to their previous positions. If you need to compromise any intonation, do so with the 4th string.
This video by Tom Collins can help walk you through the process:
youtu.be/_ewS3vakzRw
Coincidentally (but not entirely), guitarists have the same issue with their G string; it exists in this awkward zone between being too thick as a plain/unwound string and too thin as a wound string. As plain strings increase in diameter and/or tension, they become "stiffer" (more resistant to oscillating freely), particularly near the nut and bridge. This has the effect of shifting the string's overtones away from their mathematically ideal positions, leading to some wonky intonation. Such a string is also very prone to pulling sharp when fretted (stiffer = more intonationally sensitive to changes in tension, up to a point). So it's a double problem.
That's sort of the physics behind it. You'll never get every fret on every string perfectly in tune, but you can get fairly close. You might try using lighter gauge strings or even a set with a wound 3rd. Getting that string's height as low as possible (especially at the nut) is important. The final step would be a compensated bridge; this alone won't fix your intonation if there are other issues going on.
quote:
Originally posted by Silver_FallsNot that complicated -- your bridge is improperly positioned. From the description, it needs to be moved in the direction of the tailpiece.
Start with the third string. Slide the entire bridge toward the tailpiece, checking open and 12th fret intonation as you go. When the string intonates properly open and at the 12th fret, that's where the 3rd string slot of the bridge needs to be.
Now move to the 1st string. Adjust intonation by *rotating* the bridge around the center point 3rd string slot. That is, don't slide the entire bridge any more. Just move the 1st string end of it, as though the 3rd string slot of the bridge is pinned into position. More often than not, the 1st string end of the bridge will end up angled slightly back toward the nut.
Finally check the 4th string. Adjust intonation by slightly tweaking 4th/5th string end of the bridge, keeping the 3rd and 1st string slots as close as possible to their previous positions. If you need to compromise any intonation, do so with the 4th string.
This video by Tom Collins can help walk you through the process:
youtu.be/_ewS3vakzRw
Thanks for your explanation. My bridge is positions such that the the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th strings are all in perfect intonation. It's the 3rd string that's problematic.
quote:
Originally posted by maxmaxFor fun's sake, you can also try swapping out your third string for another one. Kind of like restarting your computer when it freezes, sometimes it just works. Otherwise, as already suggested, checking the nut slot on the third string or getting a compensated bridge, are really two of the three main things you can do. The third is to simply live with it. I was taught to make sure the first and fourth strings fretted at the 12th fret are in tune with the 12th fret harmonics, and just let the second and third strings do what they do. Banjos are notoriously difficult to tune and looking for perfection will just drive you mad.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try different bridges next.
Living with it will be a challenge because the intonation on that string is way, way off, and very noticeable to the point it negatively affects the tune.
The strings are brand new, it was the first thing I tried.
If it needs nut work, I'll have to find a good banjo tech, and there aren't very many in my city.
quote:
Originally posted by banjeredWelcome to the compensated (curved) bridge! banjered
I have recently joined the compensated bridge club. Some banjos need a smiley face.
The 3rd string is generally invariant. In most openback tunings it will be G (or relative). That's why you want to start with the 3rd string and get it right first. It's the root.
Get the 3rd string right, then get the 1st string right.
There is no possible way -- working carefully and following the procedure outlined above -- that you cannot get both the 3rd and 1st strings perfectly intonated, with any bridge on the planet.
Going sharp on the first few frets is NOT due to the bridge position or compensation (unless the bridge is way out of place). Most likely the action at the nut is too high. Or you're just mashing down too hard on that string, or pushing it sideways unintentionally.
If you're tuned 3 frets below standard, low string tension is part of the problem. Assuming you've got the nut slots right and the bridge in the right place, the solution is to use a WOUND 3rd STRING. Your straight bridge will work fine. (You might need to widen the nut and bridge slots just a bit to fit the string )
quote:
Originally posted by Dan GellertGoing sharp on the first few frets is NOT due to the bridge position or compensation (unless the bridge is way out of place). Most likely the action at the nut is too high. Or you're just mashing down too hard on that string, or pushing it sideways unintentionally.
If you're tuned 3 frets below standard, low string tension is part of the problem. Assuming you've got the nut slots right and the bridge in the right place, the solution is to use a WOUND 3rd STRING. Your straight bridge will work fine. (You might need to widen the nut and bridge slots just a bit to fit the string )
Thanks Dan. I was just tinkering around and came to the same conclusion as your first paragraph.
With either a compenated or straight bridge, I can get the intonation for all the strings bang on at the 12th fret but it's the first 5 frets where the intonation is horribly off. This also seems to be happening on all the strings.
I couldn't tell you whether the nut slots are at the right height - that assessment is above my skill level.
Perhaps it's time to find a banjo tech to do a proper set up on it.
Finger each string at the 3rd fret (so it's touching the 2nd fret and of course the nut), and look at the space between the 1st fret and the string. There should be VERY close to NONE. If you can slip even the thinnest piece of paper into the gap, that nut slot needs filing down.
If you're not up for DIY, I'd usually say look for someone who knows banjos, but this job is something every fretted instrument needs some time, and someone who can set up a Les Paul ought to have no problem getting the nut right on your banjo.
I think I just figured it out!
So I mentioned that I play this banjo in a slack tuning, down to double B. So for giggles, I tuned banjo #2 to the same tuning and, lo-and-behold, the second banjo was doing the same thing.
Then I tuned banjo #1 up to double C proper and the intonation issues were instantly resolved.
I didn't realize that a looser tuning could have impacts on low fret intonation!
I guess I'll either have to get banjo that's meant for lower tunings or just get used singing in C. For me, singing in B is easier on my voice but I think I can get used to the change.
Thanks to everyone for your input, it was much appreciated. I'll go and cancel my appointment with the instrument dude I found.
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Originally posted by cow_toolsYou can also just put higher gauge strings on to increase the tension that way. It's not the intonation thats an issue, its lack of string tension.
I'm running GHS PF 160s (11-13-16-26-10). Should I go higher if I want to go into that tuning?
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Sea
I'm running GHS PF 160s (11-13-16-26-10). Should I go higher if I want to go into that tuning?
To tune one of my 26-3/8-inch scale banjos down to E, I bought singles to build a set of 12-14-20w-24w-12, which is the same as the Deering Julia Belle and the John Hartford #1950 strings. They're intended for D. I imagine they can go as high as you need.
I'm not clear on what notes you're tuning to across all 5 strings. Even if you don't need go as heavy as the set I'm describing, I think you need to bump up to a wound third.
quote:
Originally posted by Adam SeaAlthough the scale is only 25.5".
At that length, tuned down 3 frets, I'd for sure want a wound third string. Daddario makes loop-end phosphor-bronze wound .018"... One of my banjos is currently strung with GHS PF160's, with one of those substituted for the stock plain 3rd. if you can manage a ball-end string, there are other brands and windings available in 17's and 18's you could try, too.
As others have said, you could try experimenting with heavier gauges of third string (only)-you can buy "singles" from a lot of places. From the tunings you mentioned, it looks like you play clawhammer. If you haven't already, you should check out some of Don Borchelt's playing on YouTube. He plays old-timey music in a three-fingered style, and on at least one of his banjos, he's converted it to fretless below the 5th fret.
youtube.com/watch?v=KIAvMwpt3jk