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Getting ready to make a new fret slotting template.
On my last (only) build I added 1/2 the fret kerf (.022"/2 = .011") to the calculated distances of the frets in order that the measurement from the EDGE of the nut to the CENTER of the frets would be correct. Now I'm thinking just cut it to the calculated numbers and check the intonation later. This will allow some compensation of the nut if necessary later.
Has anyone played around with this ? Thoughts . . . . ?
If you are using a conventional nut, measure from the face of the nut to the centre of the fret slot.
If using a zero fret then measure from the centre of the zero fret slot to the centre of each fret slot.
That said, fret slots are typically .023" wide, being out by half that, .0115", may not be discernable to most ears.
Always measure from the nut end of the fretboard to the current slot you are working on. Do not measure from fret to fret or you will compound any slight error in measurement or cutting.
I always make a template from economical hardwood so I never have to measure that scale again. My saw uses what is basically a slotted fret board as a template.
I use an app called Luthier Lab to print out a paper template first the spray glue it to the template.
Hint; a banjo 26.25" template can be used to cut a Guitar 24.75" board by skipping the first fret.
Good Luck
There's no need to deviate from the calculated fret positions, unless you're attempting to use a non-standard temperament.
If I understand correctly, it sounds like you've made the frets the correct distance from each other, but your nut is 0.011" too far from the first fret. As it stands your banjo will not intonate properly no matter where you put the bridge. It's a simple fix though, just cut 0.011" off the fretboard where the nut goes.
If you're planning on compensating the nut you'll want to cut off an extra ~1-2mm (depending on your scale length, setup, tuning, and string gauges) as the compensation will move the 0-point closer to the first fret. It's best to find the nut compensation points before cutting, and only cut off what's necessary. You'll never need to move the 0-point farther from the 1st fret.
You'll also want to ensure that everything about your setup is exactly how you want it before compensating the nut. Any change (neck relief, head tension, action, tuning, string gauges/material/brand, etc.) will require a different compensation. So if you change anything about the setup after compensating the nut then you might as well not have done it.
If your ear can't discern a fret distance error of 0.011" then I wouldn't bother compensating the nut, just make sure your nut slot height is set correctly and you'll be fine.
Edited by - jay_ on 01/03/2025 07:52:17
quote:
Originally posted by jay_There's no need to deviate from the calculated fret positions, unless you're attempting to use a non-standard temperament.
If I understand correctly, it sounds like you've made the frets the correct distance from each other, but your nut is 0.011" too far from the first fret. As it stands your banjo will not intonate properly no matter where you put the bridge. It's a simple fix though, just cut 0.011" off the fretboard where the nut goes.
If you're planning on compensating the nut you'll want to cut off an extra ~1-2mm (depending on your scale length, setup, tuning, and string gauges) as the compensation will move the 0-point closer to the first fret. It's best to find the nut compensation points before cutting, and only cut off what's necessary. You'll never need to move the 0-point farther from the 1st fret.
You'll also want to ensure that everything about your setup is exactly how you want it before compensating the nut. Any change (neck relief, head tension, action, tuning, string gauges/material/brand, etc.) will require a different compensation. So if you change anything about the setup after compensating the nut then you might as well not have done it.If your ear can't discern a fret distance error of 0.011" then I wouldn't bother compensating the nut, just make sure your nut slot height is set correctly and you'll be fine.
How much does adding a zero-nut add?
Thank you kindly.
quote:
Originally posted by CorwynHow much does adding a zero-nut add?
Thank you kindly.
Regardless of the type, form, or material used for the nut the break-off point for the string should be at the 0 position from your calculations, unless you are compensating the nut (which can't be done with a zero-fret)
If I've misunderstood your question or if anything I've said it's unclear please let me know. I'm autistic and can struggle to communicate, regardless of how well I understand the topic. I'm happy to attempt to answer any other questions you may have
Cheers
There is an app called Harmonic Tuner Guitar Setup which can help find the compensation values. Just change the variables to match your banjo and use as directed. Nut compensation is a delicate and highly variable process, especially on a banjo, so be prepared to repeatedly exhaust your patience if you choose to attempt it
Thanks for all the response. I may not have stated my question very clearly. If I just cut the fret slots according to the formula or a fret calculator, the nut would be .011" too close to all the frets because the calculated distance is center to center. If you cut the end of the fretboard off there, the leading edge of the slot will be where the nut edge will end up. In other words the formula would be correct for a zero fret situation but not really for a regular nut. My thought process was that, since this technically positions the nut .011" too close to all the other frets, I could do all my setup and fine tune the compensation later if need be because I would have extra material to remove from the face of the nut. I was just curious what other builders were doing about this. From what I understand when you have to compensate a nut, you always have to add material to the face of the nut and, with that in mind, the nut being .011 too close the other frets may just work out to be correct.
Ah I think I understand now, thank you. Sorry I misunderstood (and sorry I tend to over-explain things). So you'll be cutting a 0.022" kerf with the center precisely at the zero point, therefore have 0.011" too much removed in front.
I think you're right that it wouldn't cause any harm to the intonation with a standard nut, or if anything slightly compensate the strings in the right direction. But my only concern would be for the 1st string. In my experience the highest string typically needs no compensation at the nut end, while the thicker and wound strings will. So you risk flattening the intonation of your first couple frets only on that string. You could try it and if you find any issues you could carve 0.011" into the face of the nut for that string the same way one would compensate a nut. You could always check with a high precision harmonic tuner or the app I mentioned above, or go by ear. We've been hearing music made with uncompensated nuts for our whole music-listening lives (they didn't even get saddle compensation right until the 1970s, and nut slots were usually cut high, further sharpening the first position), so our ears tend to not have a problem with slightly sharp and dissonant first position playing despite it being "incorrect". This can even be a benefit when attempting to "cut-through" when playing with other instruments, though I suspect it's also partially responsible for why many find the banjo sound to be somewhat harsh.
It may be simpler to cut the nut slot so the kerf touches the zero point rather than add 0.011" to each fret position, essentially moving the nut kerf back instead of moving each fret forward. It depends on your process for cutting the slots and the fretboard starting position, and how you're designing your template.
I think you're on the right track. It would be a simple fix if you have any issue with the high string.
Best of luck on your template and your next build!
Thanks Jay, I think I'm going to try it that way and see how it works out. I know that's the only way I'll really find out which way I'll like the best. My last banjo I added the .011" to all the positions and it worked out just fine although I haven't really analyzed the intonation, it plays, tunes, capos, well. When I get this one done I will analyze both and compare. I'll repost my conclusions.
quote:
Originally posted by RowlandThanks for all the response. I may not have stated my question very clearly. If I just cut the fret slots according to the formula or a fret calculator, the nut would be .011" too close to all the frets because the calculated distance is center to center. If you cut the end of the fretboard off there, the leading edge of the slot will be where the nut edge will end up. In other words the formula would be correct for a zero fret situation but not really for a regular nut. My thought process was that, since this technically positions the nut .011" too close to all the other frets, I could do all my setup and fine tune the compensation later if need be because I would have extra material to remove from the face of the nut. I was just curious what other builders were doing about this. From what I understand when you have to compensate a nut, you always have to add material to the face of the nut and, with that in mind, the nut being .011 too close the other frets may just work out to be correct.
Back in the early days, Bob Taylor made a "mistake" cutting his guitar fingerboards through the nut position (fret slot "0"), leaving the nut location 0.011" short of its theoretically correct location, as you propose. He found out that the intonation up and down the neck was actually better than if he had the nut positioned at the actual theoretical zero location.
The distance from the the top of the first fret to the string is about .010", the distance from the top of the second fret to the string fretted at the first fret is much much less. So I would suspect that fretting at the first fret requires more displacement of the string and more "sharping" of the note. Taylor found accidentally that an effective 0.011" nut compensation helped. YMMV.
Edited by - banjodobro56 on 01/08/2025 13:05:57