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Is Bela Fleck's song "Big Country" considered Scruggs style or melodic style or a mixture? (Note I"m not talking about Jimmy Martin's Big Country)
Hey techman, I would say a mix, maybe just Bela style or fleck style? Has some hints of bg, scrugs, and or melodic. Kinda jazzy like a lot of his composing. I like his style. Departs from a lot of the old bg stuff but still fits, iykwim. Kinda like John Jorgenson(spelling)who plays mando a lot but can play just about anything, style wise.
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Originally posted by techmanIs Bela Fleck's song "Big Country" considered Scruggs style or melodic style or a mixture? (Note I"m not talking about Jimmy Martin's Big Country)
Definitely Fleck style. Just a theme of constant rolling patterns with a jazzy flavor. No hint of Scruggs or bluegrass. But hey I am no expert
Edited by - FenderFred on 12/14/2024 07:02:48
The opening break down the neck is for the most part, Scruggs-style. There are a few melodic runs but he's mostly using Scruggs patterns to fit the melody.
His up the neck break is a classic Bela style, and it's not a way I recall Scruggs doing it. For some of it he's doing a forward roll with open drone strings and finding the melody on his index finger up the neck. it's not technically melodic style but there are some melodic elements thrown in.
Edited by - LouieChee on 12/14/2024 07:31:43
In my opinion, it's an example of Scruggs and melodic technique blended seamlessly.
As Louie says, the opening down-the-neck part is Scruggs based. It's rolls. There's T-I-T-M with 2-3 slide and 3-2 pull-off on third string. Straight out of Cripple Creek. There are some hammers. It's founded in Scruggs technique. But because of its melody, chords and tempo, it doesn't sound like bluegrass, as Fred says. There's also some melodic technique in there, mostly at ends of phrases or as connectors
I also agree with Louie that the way Bela plays the up-the-neck melody, while based in rolls, is nothing that Earl ever did. Bela is getting the melody up and tdown the first string, while mixing up his rolls to get the melody notes to fall where he wants them.
The bridge also combines Scruggs and melodic technique. In the video linked below, Bela's sometimes using chord shapes called widespread triads. The notes are on 4th, 3rd and 1st strings. Think of the major and minor chord shapes in a G Major diatonic scale. Eliminate the 2nd string and drop the 4th string note to the next lower note still in the chord. For example, the E minor at x455 becomes 24x5. G Major at x789 becomes 57x9. You can find the rest. Sometimes you use your ring finger for the 3rd string note, sometimes middle. I won't go into the "rule" (based on one finger per fret) since I break it all the time and fret these shapes however is comfortable.
Anyway, Bela plays fairly standard rolls over these shapes, but - again - it's nothing Earl ever did.
In this video, Bela talks about the tune for the first five minutes. The version he plays starting around 5:00 is in G tuning instead of E, so it's convenient for using as a lesson. Opens and closes with improvisation.
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Originally posted by FenderFredquote:
Originally posted by techmanIs Bela Fleck's song "Big Country" considered Scruggs style or melodic style or a mixture? (Note I"m not talking about Jimmy Martin's Big Country)
Definitely Fleck style. Just a theme of constant rolling patterns with a jazzy flavor. No hint of Scruggs or bluegrass. But hey I am no expert
No hint? The opening couple bars is literally the classic Scruggs style Cripple Creek roll
Bela (and Noam too) blend Scruggs, melodic and single string so seamlessly that’s it’s often hard to tell which one they are using at any given moment. I’ve come to call it “playing the banjo”
Sorry guy's but I am just not hearing Scruggs style and definitely nothing that remotely sounds like Cripple Creek
Yes, agreed Laurence....Jack
Originally posted by Laurence DiehlBela (and Noam too) blend Scruggs, melodic and single string so seamlessly that’s it’s often hard to tell which one they are using at any given moment. I’ve come to call it “playing the banjo”
Bela Fleck is the Anti-Scruggs, so maybe it should be called Anti-Scruggs style.
I don't understand why Bela titled his song "Big Country"; that title had already been used for another iconic Bluegrass instrumental by Jimmy Martin that featured J.D. Crowe on the banjo.
The first time I heard Fleck's 'Big Country' it certainly reminded me of the time I was driving through Yellowstone National Park (big country indeed). So, it has always seemed aply titled though it does have the same name as Jimmy Martin's tune. Fleck's 'Big Country' always makes me think of wide open, majestic spaces. I think it is a great tune, one of my favorites on the banjo.
WADR, I don’t think Bela was “Anti-Scruggs”, he loved Earl and ended many of his shows with the Beverly Hillbillies theme; it being the tune that got him excited about learning to play the banjo. His talents and musical interests took him, as we all know, farther outside the realm of traditional bluegrass. Big Country reminds me of a Celtic tune , one that can't place at the moment. Without deeper analysis, it sounds like he plays musical lines with a mix of styles and then uses Scruggs rolls in between these phrases.
Edited by - chuckv97 on 12/15/2024 07:52:26
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Originally posted by chuckv97WADR, I don’t think Bela was “Anti-Scruggs”, he loved Earl and ended many of his shows with the Beverly Hillbillies theme; it being the tune that got him excited about learning to play the banjo. His talents and musical interests took him, as we all know, farther outside the realm of traditional bluegrass. Big Country reminds me of a Celtic tune , one that can't place at the moment. Without deeper analysis, it sounds like he plays musical lines with a mix of styles and then uses Scruggs rolls in between these phrases.
I agree that with you that Bela wasn't Anti-Scruggs but I seem to recall him talking about the way the banjo was portrayed as a hillbilly instrument and he didn't like that one bit. His goal is to change the public's opinion on how versatile the banjo is
Edited by - FenderFred on 12/15/2024 08:01:52
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Originally posted by FenderFredquote:
Originally posted by chuckv97WADR, I don’t think Bela was “Anti-Scruggs”, he loved Earl and ended many of his shows with the Beverly Hillbillies theme; it being the tune that got him excited about learning to play the banjo. His talents and musical interests took him, as we all know, farther outside the realm of traditional bluegrass. Big Country reminds me of a Celtic tune , one that can't place at the moment. Without deeper analysis, it sounds like he plays musical lines with a mix of styles and then uses Scruggs rolls in between these phrases.
I agree that with you that Bela wasn't Anti-Scruggs but I seem to recall him talking about the way the banjo was portrayed as a hillbilly instrument and he didn't like that
True enough,, I get it, as did Monroe, and others like Louise and Earl himself - they wanted to get rid of the hayseed stereotype and get to.... wait for it ... CARNEGIE HALL! (he talks about this in the interview with Rick Beato)
I do hear some Cripple Creek in the tune,, not the first string slide that many start with but the slide on the third string that Earl kicked off the tune with. (or as my long-suffering high school English teacher Mrs. Lindsay would sternly correct , " Charles, it should be " with which Earl kicked off the tune" !" )
Edited by - chuckv97 on 12/15/2024 08:14:26
I didn't say that Bela was anti-Scruggs. I said that he was "the" Anti-Scruggs. I believe that he and Scruggs became good friends.
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Originally posted by FenderFredSorry guy's but I am just not hearing Scruggs style and definitely nothing that remotely sounds like Cripple Creek
At 5:27-28 he does 2-3 slide followed by 3-2 slide or pull-off in T-I-T-M pattern. He also does that combo a lot in the improvisation before the real tune begins.
That move is basic Scruggs and is in Cripple Creek. But even this foundational Scruggs move sounds different because Bela is playing close to the neck, not the bridge; his head is looser than Earl's; and he's playing with an entirely different attack, going for a different tone.
The bulk of the down-the-neck section is played in conventional, foundational, Scruggs style -- at least as far as the picking hand goes. There is very little melodic style (in the sense of the central melodic concept of higher notes on lower strings through the combination of open and fretted notes). But there's some. And, again, even though Bela is playing basic roll patterns and combinations, it doesn't sound anything like Earl. But if you listen past Bela's signature sound and watch what he's doing, you can recognize that at its core it's Scruggs style. Later on in the piece, not as much.
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Originally posted by RB3I don't understand why Bela titled his song "Big Country"; that title had already been used for another iconic Bluegrass instrumental by Jimmy Martin that featured J.D. Crowe on the banjo.
Titles can't be copyrighted. So they can be used by anyone.
Bela called his tune Big Country because of the sounds and scenes that inspired it. He's talked about (maybe in video I linked above) his inspiration being the orchestral themes of movie westerns.
But even though all titles are fair game, I also see your point that maybe it's not good practice to use a title of an iconic instrumental from the same or and adjacent genre.
Once we mix up Scruggs,melodic and single string styles we get an amalgamation.
What I never understand, is why people care what part/s of another style a songs is. Just play it if you like it....I'm sure no one here agrees with me as they approach and analyze most of what's on this site like engineers in a factory...Oh well query on...Jack p.s. does it really affect how you play? An honest answer would be "I don't know"
Edited by - Jack Baker on 12/17/2024 12:51:26
The first band I joined played The Dead,The Band,Dylan,Jerry Jeff,Townes and Little Feet.
We did play the Old and In the Way album and a certain few Monroe and Scene.
Then I also worked with a piano man for some years who played just a handful of Bluegrass so I've had considerable experience not playing bluegrass on the banjo.
If it's true that you can't copyright song titles, I guess I should look on the bright side; he didn't choose "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" as the title of his song.
I'm more interested in the sound than the title.
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Originally posted by chuckv97Big Country reminds me of a Celtic tune , one that can't place at the moment.
Loch Lomond?
I agree with you Laurence. I was Bela's first banjo teacher and taught him his first rolls and a bunch of Scruggs tunes and he was extraordinary in that I could give Bela 5 Scruggs tunes every week and Bela would come back the next week with all 5 tunes memorized and up to speed. After about 9 lessons I told Bela I was sending him to Bill Keith, who was also my first teacher, at least in the Melodic style. Bela certainly adores Scruggs but he wanted to go his own way. I encouraged that and so did Bill Keith and Tony Trischka.
Eventually, Bela ended up with Tony Trischka who was also one of my first teachers trying to convert me to a lefty and Tony was wonderful and gave me the courage to continue. My right hand was plagued with Dystonia so I had to switch to lefty...
Anyway, let there be no doubt that Bela still adores what Earl gave to Music and Banjo music--just like Bill Keith did when he came along...Jack
Originally posted by Laurence DiehlBela (and Noam too) blend Scruggs, melodic and single string so seamlessly that’s it’s often hard to tell which one they are using at any given moment. I’ve come to call it “playing the banjo”
Edited by - Jack Baker on 12/30/2024 12:25:01
Jack,
Most of the second-generation players (J.D. Crowe, Sonny Osborne, etc.) became obsessed with learning to do what Scruggs was doing. I doubt that any of them started with the idea of creating their own unique playing style; they just wanted to "play like Earl". However, at some point, they began to make departures from what Scruggs was doing, and they realized that they would get greater personal fulfillment by coming up with their own way of playing the instrument. I can't tell you how many times I've heard J.D. say, "you can't beat a man at his own game".
Based upon what you've described, Bela was learning at a prodigious rate at the beginning. When he was taking lessons with you, do you think that he had already realized and decided that his goal was to develop his own way of playing the instrument?
Edited by - RB3 on 12/31/2024 07:29:12
I think Bela's own imagination took him there....Jack p.s. people aren't responsible for their own genius, it's just there I guess....
Edited by - Jack Baker on 12/31/2024 07:34:03
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