This is like asking "how long is a piece of string?"

Everyone is different. Everyone advances at their own pace. I've had students that progressed really fast and other students who took longer. Suffice to say: the more hours of practice you put in, the better you'll play.

If location and finances permit, working with a good teacher will almost certainly help.

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Originally posted by 6stringedRamble

So I started years ago learning CH, and never really become proficient. I'd play here and there noodling around, or try tabs for 15 minutes a day for a few weeks. I can kinda play CH now.

I decided to try learning Bluegrass recently. I'm trying to do 40 minutes of practice a day. I'm learning songs off YouTube, Pretty Polly, Constant Sorrow, Ghost Riders

How many hours of practice does it typically take before one can play basic songs proficiently 

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I would say 2 to 3 years 12 hours intense study / practice per day 7 days a week and you just might begin to sound like your playing bluegrass.  Seriously with the right teacher you could cut that time by half.  It's not like measuring out a bag of flour. No two students make the same progress. We all learn differently.

If you are looking for a teacher I would like to suggest Banjo Ben Clark. He is not everyones choice but of all the teachers I have studied with he is at the top of my list.

Go check him out, you can sign up for a FREE trial with no obligation https://banjobenclark.com/

About that many.

Seriously, this has been discussed endlessly to no definite or even consensus conclusion, I believe.

From time-to-time people trot out Malcom Gladwell's 10,000 hours from his book "Outliers." But that referred to the amount of practice or work required to gain expertise, to excel. Not to become merely proficient. His examples included the Beatles putting in all their hours in Hamburg night clubs, from which they emerged as as one of the best live rock 'n' roll bands in the world.

But I digress.

I don't believe there's any minimum or even typical amount of practice and repetition it takes to become proficient at playing a musical instrument. Or, as you specifically ask: to play basic songs proficiently.

Truth be told, I believe in intangibles such as aptitude, ear, feel and talent. Perhaps it doesn't take a lot of talent to play basic three-finger banjo songs. But I'm certain it takes some amount of the other traits.

I'm not saying you lack these. And I'm not saying you should give up.

I'm saying that since there's no definite amount of practice and repetition required to reach your goal, you have to keep at it until you get there.

Good luck. Have fun along the way.

Malcolm Gladwell's saying goes something like this 1,000 hours of practice, you're a beginner 10,000 to become an expert.

( I  )===='==<::}

It depends on your music background and whether youve played other stringed instruments. I spent about 600 hours before I played the banjo at one of my gigs (already knew guitar). If you take long breaks it adds to the time.

From scratch, for any stringed instruments count on about 2500 hours to become decent if your young and have decent dexterity, older folks might never get up to speed but generally takes longer. True for dirtbikes and many other things as well. I had one student become pro level in 6 months with a guitar from scratch so you never know.

Understanding the language and conventions of folk and popular music is really important. Things like hearing chord changes, understanding what chords are most common in a particular key, being able to pick out melodies by ear. If you go into learning a specific instrument with that knowledge already in place it's a huge advantage.

Last time this topic came up I decided to do a bit of research and found some good information in the BHO archives as well as outside of this website. If I remember correctly the general consensus for the amount of time it takes to learn to play an instrument proficiently is about 2,000 hours. However, as we all know there are variables at play and the whole issue is subjective on many levels.
FWIW, I was an accomplished guitar player at the time I started playing Bluegrass banjo. Out of curiosity I kept track of my practice schedule and found that when I reached about 1,500 hours (4 years) everything seemed to come together including backup playing, improvising breaks, and working with advanced aspects of songs. It was at this point that I became confident in my skills. Of course we all know that the more one learns about most any subject (including banjo) the more one realizes how much there is yet to learn.

How many hours?   

I'd say somewhere between, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear," and as one guy posted on the hangout ... learned two new songs during one jam session [along with whatever other jamming activities he participated in].  

when i first started i took a lesson from Richie Dotson and he gave me this sheet....based on the "average person". i'm not saying it's correct or incorrect but Richie has taught many students. Of course it's just an estimated reference, but it's the only time i've seen it laid out in this fashion....hope it helps. 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pick-A-Lick

Last time this topic came up I decided to do a bit of research and found some good information in the BHO archives as well as outside of this website. If I remember correctly the general consensus for the amount of time it takes to learn to play an instrument proficiently is about 2,000 hours. However, as we all know there are variables at play and the whole issue is subjective on many levels.
FWIW, I was an accomplished guitar player at the time I started playing Bluegrass banjo. Out of curiosity I kept track of my practice schedule and found that when I reached about 1,500 hours (4 years) everything seemed to come together including backup playing, improvising breaks, and working with advanced aspects of songs. It was at this point that I became confident in my skills. Of course we all know that the more one learns about most any subject (including banjo) the more one realizes how much there is yet to learn.

Oh that's kinda disappointing, but that seems like a reasonable number. I guess I just need to actually put the hours in. 

I just see a lot of people in the banjo community who seem to be posting songs on YouTube after a few months of playing. 

But your 1500 hours seems like a reasonable estimate. 

Any scheduling or discipline techniques you used to stick to it? 

quote:

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Originally posted by 6stringedRamble

quote:

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Originally posted by Pick-A-Lick

Last time this topic came up I decided to do a bit of research and found some good information in the BHO archives as well as outside of this website. If I remember correctly the general consensus for the amount of time it takes to learn to play an instrument proficiently is about 2,000 hours. However, as we all know there are variables at play and the whole issue is subjective on many levels.
FWIW, I was an accomplished guitar player at the time I started playing Bluegrass banjo. Out of curiosity I kept track of my practice schedule and found that when I reached about 1,500 hours (4 years) everything seemed to come together including backup playing, improvising breaks, and working with advanced aspects of songs. It was at this point that I became confident in my skills. Of course we all know that the more one learns about most any subject (including banjo) the more one realizes how much there is yet to learn.

 

Oh that's kinda disappointing, but that seems like a reasonable number. I guess I just need to actually put the hours in. 

I just see a lot of people in the banjo community who seem to be posting songs on YouTube after a few months of playing. 

But your 1500 hours seems like a reasonable estimate. 

Any scheduling or discipline techniques you used to stick to it? 

 

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Lots of folks post a song or two after a few months of playing and maybe their goal is to just learn a song or two. Something for everyone as they say. 
My regimen is to attempt to practice banjo for one hour daily. Sometimes I do more and sometimes I cannot play at all that day. I also play other instruments and try to practice those as I can. The 1500 banjo hours that I did complete brought me to the point of feeling confident that I can proficiently play along with any song in any situation be it backup, taking an established break, or improvising a break all with no or minimal mistakes. Again, it's important to consider that from experience I understand music and have played guitar and trumpet in bands over the years which is a confidence booster in itself. 
I think the important thing here is to set realistic goals for yourself and make the most of your practice time. There is no substitute for putting in the practice time. 

 

A quick search turns up people saying Gladwell is wrong or that he misstated or misinterpreted the research on which he based his version of the 10,000-hour rule.

This article, in particular, features an interview with an eminent professor of psychology at Florida State University whose actual work was Gladwell's basis. Prof. Ericsson says Gladwell "misread it a bit."

The FSU research looked at a group of top violinists. Researchers found that by age 20 they had spent *on average* 10,000 hours studying alone. Gladwell misread that as every one of them had spent at least 10,000 hours.

Not only that. Prof. Ericsson goes on to say that Gladwell counts practice, repetition, and doing the work (again, the Beatles' actual performing hours) as if those hours are equal.  I'll quote the professor's own words to be sure I don't misstate the distinction and what his original research actually said:

"What we were talking about is deliberate practice. That’s the kind of practice where you’re not doing your job, you’re taking time to focus on trying to improve. When you do that under the guidance of a master teacher in particular, the teacher would tell you what the next step in your development is going to be. That is the kind of practice we talked about as being essential to reach the highest level of performance."

-  -  -  -  -

So the important finding in the original research on hours of practice is that it has to be the right kind of practice: Guided practice focused on what one needs to improve.

What happens if you don't know you're doing something wrong and that's what you practice over and over? You'll reinforce a bad habit.

Learning a song takes a couple weeks for a beginner and a couple hours for an expert. Slapping it on youtube 15 minutes. Thats a different question!

One of my biggest challenges after 52 years of playing is that I still have trouble getting through a clean rendition, especially when I want to record. In gigs or jams, it doesn't matter so much if I don't play something exactly as I intended to. Or if I make actual mistakes. It happens.

But I want to make videos to share on YouTube and to post to Artistworks for my teachers there to comment on.

I have spent quite a few hours in at least three shooting sessions since this past weekend trying to get one good sounding error-free take of one of my solo banjo arrangements of a Broadway show tune. I have one. And even that one required some audio editing to add in three notes I didn't play. Yes. I'm willing to cheat.

This happens to be a difficult arrangement. I'll be posting this one, so you'll see. Of course, I play it fine when I'm just sitting at my desk and the camera's not rolling. We'll see how I do in the days and weeks ahead as I try to record some things I think I have more solidly under my fingers.

Old Hickory there’s a trade-off between getting a note perfect performance and having it sound fresh and spontaneous on take #27. Unfortunately.

most of what you hear commercially is the product of digital editing. 

Just play every day.
If you put timetables on your progress you may find disappointment.
Play every day because you love to play.

I think that tradition has the best formula, 1+ hours practice every day under the guidance of a teacher (perhaps a weekly lesson). I followed this routine for 6 years, & was a pretty good Cornetist in my teens.

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

A quick search turns up people saying Gladwell is wrong or that he misstated or misinterpreted the research on which he based his version of the 10,000-hour rule.

This article, in particular, features an interview with an eminent professor of psychology at Florida State University whose actual work was Gladwell's basis. Prof. Ericsson says Gladwell "misread it a bit."

The FSU research looked at a group of top violinists. Researchers found that by age 20 they had spent *on average* 10,000 hours studying alone. Gladwell misread that as every one of them had spent at least 10,000 hours.

Not only that. Prof. Ericsson goes on to say that Gladwell counts practice, repetition, and doing the work (again, the Beatles' actual performing hours) as if those hours are equal.  I'll quote the professor's own words to be sure I don't misstate the distinction and what his original research actually said:

"What we were talking about is deliberate practice. That’s the kind of practice where you’re not doing your job, you’re taking time to focus on trying to improve. When you do that under the guidance of a master teacher in particular, the teacher would tell you what the next step in your development is going to be. That is the kind of practice we talked about as being essential to reach the highest level of performance."

-  -  -  -  -

So the important finding in the original research on hours of practice is that it has to be the right kind of practice: Guided practice focused on what one needs to improve.

What happens if you don't know you're doing something wrong and that's what you practice over and over? You'll reinforce a bad habit.

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This is important! When I used to fly gliders (sailplanes) we had a saying about experience - 'Have you really flown 1,000 hours, or just the same hour 1,000 times?'

Self-teaching can work if you take a critical approach to it. This means something like recording yourself, listening back and identifying what's not right, then consciously working to fix it.

But there is a second point about competence, which is that you can decide the level you want to achieve. I've just picked up double bass, and I've hit my first goal which is to be able to accompany other players in a fairly simple way which sounds good - that's mainly roots and fifths with a few walkups or walkdowns. I could, and might, stop there - I'm competent at that level. But I'm not competent to play in an orchestra, or a jazz trio, for example.

Once you've reached a basic level of competence, enough to play a song at your chosen level without crashing and burning, I find the fastest way to improve is to play with others, especially if they are better than you. That teaches you the kind of musicality which is a step beyond just playing the notes, and which is harder to achieve on your own.

You just never know when something is going to "click" for you. Could take years. Could be you do it once by accident and then you have it.

quote:

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Originally posted by 6stringedRamble

quote:

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Originally posted by Pick-A-Lick

Last time this topic came up I decided to do a bit of research and found some good information in the BHO archives as well as outside of this website. If I remember correctly the general consensus for the amount of time it takes to learn to play an instrument proficiently is about 2,000 hours. However, as we all know there are variables at play and the whole issue is subjective on many levels.
FWIW, I was an accomplished guitar player at the time I started playing Bluegrass banjo. Out of curiosity I kept track of my practice schedule and found that when I reached about 1,500 hours (4 years) everything seemed to come together including backup playing, improvising breaks, and working with advanced aspects of songs. It was at this point that I became confident in my skills. Of course we all know that the more one learns about most any subject (including banjo) the more one realizes how much there is yet to learn.

 

Oh that's kinda disappointing, but that seems like a reasonable number. I guess I just need to actually put the hours in. 

I just see a lot of people in the banjo community who seem to be posting songs on YouTube after a few months of playing. 

But your 1500 hours seems like a reasonable estimate. 

Any scheduling or discipline techniques you used to stick to it? 

 

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I practice in 30 minute sessions, 2 or 3 times a day. It keeps me from getting sloppy and stay focused during practice.  I also find that if I don't play with other people regularly that my playing suffers some.  So I actually take lessons from a really good guitar player. I pay her for an hour of guitar playing so can I play banjo against a live guitar. 

quote:

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Originally posted by 6stringedRamble

So I started years ago learning CH, and never really become proficient. I'd play here and there noodling around, or try tabs for 15 minutes a day for a few weeks. I can kinda play CH now.

I decided to try learning Bluegrass recently. I'm trying to do 40 minutes of practice a day. I'm learning songs off YouTube, Pretty Polly, Constant Sorrow, Ghost Riders

How many hours of practice does it typically take before one can play basic songs proficiently 

---

While I wouldn't say how many hours it will take, I will say that playing at least an hour a day if not more is going to get you there sooner. I usually give myself one day a week off if I want or need to do other stuff. But repetition, endless regular repetition works for me.

If the goal is to play songs proficiency then I suppose the amount of time it will take will depend upon what exactly it is that the learner is practicing, how the learner chooses to practice and how achievable is the intended level of proficiency. "A goal without a plan is simply a wish".

Spend as much time as possible playing with other people and learn to take advice.

I read "Brainjo" a while back, I found it to be an interesting book, not strictly focused on banjo but more on the art of learning based upon study habits both good and bad.

Vic Wooton's "The lesson" was more of a fanciful tale.

And

The "The Art of Mastery" which is more of a companion type book to some videos (On Youtube).

I read them mostly to enhance my educational pursuits and to bolster my pedagogical approach when instructing beginners.

What is proficient and competent? It depends on the context I guess. If playing in a band, rolling through a set, hitting some melody notes, adding some flavor up the neck and rolling over chords during a break, not long. If It is sitting in the basement playing intricate solo pieces precisely and perfectly, then probably years.