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Dec 10, 2024 - 7:26:34 AM
10 posts since 5/31/2024

Occasionally, when I am learning new tab, if I'm finding a measure particularly difficult, I may change it (as long as I am able to not affect the melody notes). What do you guys think about this practice? Should I just work through the difficult tab section 'as is' until I learn to play it as tabbed out-- or is this change for ease sake an okay thing to do?

Dec 10, 2024 - 7:34:08 AM
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jimkorn

USA

26 posts since 3/7/2006

In my opinion, it depends on your goal. If you wish to play the song in a reasonably short period of time, then simplify it. I like to learn the song as is. I play just the difficult measures repeatedly and then add it to the song. I enjoy the challange and I am in no hurry.

Dec 10, 2024 - 7:58:32 AM

klgera

USA

582 posts since 12/3/2004

Change it so you can play it, the way you want. Even Scruggs changed his approach sometimes, so go for it.

Dec 10, 2024 - 8:09:20 AM
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Players Union Member

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

31090 posts since 8/3/2003

I would suggest that you change those passages that give you problems and come back to them a few months later and see if they've become more easy to play correctly.

No reason to not change a tab, people do it all the time to make the song more their style than the original tab.

Dec 10, 2024 - 8:54:31 AM
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phb

Germany

4160 posts since 11/8/2010

Practice the hard version, play the easy version. I know that I can't play the difficult stuff in a jam session or public performance and thus always keep it as simple as possible (in fact I can't even think of the difficult stuff then). But what is simple to me now once was difficult and would still be without the practice.

Dec 10, 2024 - 9:22:23 AM
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16334 posts since 12/2/2005

Bear in mind that any tablature of a given song represents only one arrangement of that song. It may, for example, precisely show how Earl played "Cripple Creek" on the Foggy Mountain Banjo album, but that's certainly not the only way the song can be played. Heck, Earl almost certainly played it a bunch of different ways himself.

So the short answer is yes, change away. That said: there are certain licks/right-and-left hand moves that are foundational to bluegrass banjo. For example, there are two variations of a third-string 3-2 pulloff in Fireball Maine. The differences are subtle, but they sound very different, and any student of Scruggs really should be able to recognize the difference and play both.

So I agree with those who suggest that you can change the tab, but don't get lazy about things - if that's a foundational skill you're skipping, you'll want to practice it at some point.

Edited by - eagleisland on 12/10/2024 09:22:58

Dec 10, 2024 - 10:17:23 AM
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51 posts since 10/13/2023

I think it depends on the circumstance. If you're changing a measure to avoid learning or practicing a fundamental technique, probably a bad idea. If you're learning from a community made tab it may be due to awkwardness of how the tab was written, i've run into that a few times. (ex: foggy mountain rolls where the index leads instead of the thumb).

Dec 10, 2024 - 11:26:28 AM

15978 posts since 6/2/2008

All the previous messages have done a good job of conveying that you're free to play anything any way you want -- while also conveying there are reasons sometimes to learn something as tabbed, even if you choose to play it differently.

I'd sum them up by saying it comes down to:

Is the difficult measure a fundamental technique you absolutely need to know?

If not, who wrote this tab anyway?

Edited by - Old Hickory on 12/10/2024 11:33:51

Dec 10, 2024 - 12:07:09 PM

16709 posts since 6/30/2020

I’m with Philipp; Learn the easy version and continue to work on the harder version(s) that you find or concoct. Then you will have an easy version to play on your first break and a more elaborate or robust version on your second break. Bear in mind that also learning backup for a song is valuable in that much of what you play could also be integrated into a break if needed depending upon the song. 
It's also important to learn the harder licks as they will be integrated into many of the songs to which you will be exposed because they are standard, must know Bluegrass licks, or phrases. When you learn one lick it can be slightly modified to become another lick based on the first so the possibilities are endless  

Edited by - Pick-A-Lick on 12/10/2024 12:21:09

Dec 10, 2024 - 1:31:09 PM
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15978 posts since 6/2/2008

Robert -

I looked at your profile and see you're almost as old as I am and have been playing for nearly as long. And after 45 years, you consider yourself an intermediate level player. I can relate. After 52 years, I don't think my playing is as advanced as it should be. Blame a 20-year lay-off. There's always more to learn. I can always get better.

So, I doubt the measures of tablature that give you trouble have fundamental technique you don't yet know.

That means you should feel free to ignore the tab and play those measures any way you want. Which also means my second consideration in choosing whether to play or ignore what's written goes into effect: Who wrote this tab?

More to the point, what does the tab purport to represent?

Is it supposed to be an accurate representation of how a name artist played a particular piece of music on a record or in a live performance? If so, first question would be how reliable is the tab. If it's the artist's own transcription, published under their name, it's probably accurate. If it's by someone else, such as the tabs you can download here, it could be great or it could be wrong.

If the tab is accurate, then maybe you just have to accept you can't play that phrase exactly like Earl, Sonny, JD, Alan, Bela, Alison, Noam or someone else played it and move on. I certainly do. Have you seen the tab of how Alan Munde actually plays the opening measure of Huckleberry Hornpipe? There are many ways to get the same notes. There are also many ways to play a more than acceptable variation on the melody. There's nothing wrong with playing it differently. Some people who have tabbed it out thinking they've captured what Alan played are themselves wrong.

Does the tab represent nothing more than some stranger's idea of how a tune can be played on banjo? If so, who are they? Why would you not feel free to play something differently if you can't do it their way? And what's the tune? If it's some traditional tune of unknown authorship, there's no one way it goes or to play it. There's no one way, no matter how old the tune, traditional or composed.

This leads to a point made earlier in the discussion: Tab represents just one arrangement or version of a song or tune. Tab does not necessarily represent how a song goes. It's not a song, period. It's barely music.

Even if tab attempts to represent how a specific artist played a tune, it's very likely they played it exactly that way only one time. Some artists play some highly composed pieces as close to the same way all the time. Jens' Kruger's concertos come to mind. But you know after four decades that banjo playing is highly improvisational. Sometimes unintentionally so. Some artists change up what they play only a little. Others quite a bit. Some both, depending on the piece. At a gig or jam, I often intend to play something one way and it comes out a different way.

Closing thought: We old retired guys worked our whole lives to earn the right to eventually do some things our way. Make every song your own. No need for permission or apologies.

Dec 10, 2024 - 1:32:01 PM
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823 posts since 5/21/2020

quote:
Originally posted by techman

Occasionally, when I am learning new tab, if I'm finding a measure particularly difficult, I may change it (as long as I am able to not affect the melody notes). What do you guys think about this practice? Should I just work through the difficult tab section 'as is' until I learn to play it as tabbed out-- or is this change for ease sake an okay thing to do?


I do it frequently too. Not all TABs are well written, sometimes a little tweak is all that's needed to improve things

Edited by - FenderFred on 12/10/2024 13:35:24

Dec 10, 2024 - 2:33:03 PM
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4370 posts since 7/12/2006

Id say most people that learn from tab eventually put their own stamp on it. I

Dec 10, 2024 - 2:55:53 PM

3593 posts since 5/6/2004

quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I would suggest that you change those passages that give you problems and come back to them a few months later and see if they've become more easy to play correctly.


I wouldn't use the word "correctly." Sure, some arrangements are more complex than others, but what makes any of them the "correct" one? If two banjo greats play the same song differently, is only one playing it "correctly"?

A semantic quibble? Unfairly seizing upon a single word? Perhaps. But I believe it important, at every turn, to reinforce the inherently improvisational nature of bluegrass music. Keep faith with the basic melody, harmony, and rhythm, but beyond that, feel free to play anything however you like. In fact, I would argue that the compulsion to try to pick every note "correctly," i.e., exactly as some tab writer notated it, has pointed many a banjo player down the wrong road: toward copying and away from playing (and making playing with others that much more difficult).

This is not to minimize the joy of incorporating, over time, more intricate patterns, ornamentations, and licks into your playing. But that should be a creative choice, not a doctrinal imperative. 

Dec 10, 2024 - 4:47:06 PM
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6342 posts since 3/6/2006

If you are using tab to learn a tune it’s because you don’t or can’t “just hear it” like some of us do. It’s not about having a correct version, it’s about having one discrete way to play the tune. Too many choices lead to confusion unless you’re advanced enough to just wing it.

Dec 10, 2024 - 8:01:45 PM
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15978 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
I wouldn't use the word "correctly." Sure, some arrangements are more complex than others, but what makes any of them the "correct" one? . . .

A semantic quibble?  


Maybe. Of course, in general, no one way to play anything is more correct than another (unless, for example, you play the B part of "Old Joe Clark" for the B part of "Clinch Mountain Backstep" because you can't hear the difference . . . but that's not my point).

I don't think complexity or difficulty have anything to do with playing something "correctly." I'd use that to refer to an artist's composed, recorded and tabbed piece that you want to play as written. And if you don't succeed, who's to know?

Dec 10, 2024 - 8:05:08 PM
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chuckv97

Canada

73327 posts since 10/5/2013

I don’t often improvise,,, but when I do I use the same 20 licks I’ve known for years wink


 

Edited by - chuckv97 on 12/10/2024 20:09:13

Dec 11, 2024 - 4:15:46 AM
Players Union Member

Texasbanjo (Moderator)

USA

31090 posts since 8/3/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I would suggest that you change those passages that give you problems and come back to them a few months later and see if they've become more easy to play correctly.


I wouldn't use the word "correctly." Sure, some arrangements are more complex than others, but what makes any of them the "correct" one? If two banjo greats play the same song differently, is only one playing it "correctly"?

A semantic quibble? Unfairly seizing upon a single word? Perhaps. But I believe it important, at every turn, to reinforce the inherently improvisational nature of bluegrass music. Keep faith with the basic melody, harmony, and rhythm, but beyond that, feel free to play anything however you like. In fact, I would argue that the compulsion to try to pick every note "correctly," i.e., exactly as some tab writer notated it, has pointed many a banjo player down the wrong road: toward copying and away from playing (and making playing with others that much more difficult).

This is not to minimize the joy of incorporating, over time, more intricate patterns, ornamentations, and licks into your playing. But that should be a creative choice, not a doctrinal imperative. 


I have to agree with you.  I shouldn't have used the word "correctly" but stopped at "see if they become easier to play". 

Dec 11, 2024 - 5:34 AM
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phb

Germany

4160 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory

Maybe. Of course, in general, no one way to play anything is more correct than another (unless, for example, you play the B part of "Old Joe Clark" for the B part of "Clinch Mountain Backstep" because you can't hear the difference . . . 


Haha, that exact thing happened to me at the last jam session! It's consoling me to know that this exact mistake doesn't seem to be unheard of...

OK, back to topic...

Dec 11, 2024 - 8:41:25 AM
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15978 posts since 6/2/2008

phb (Philipp):

Yeah, I used that example because I heard it. Was jamming with a very good teenage banjo player and a guitar player at the first Delfest Festival in 2008. I had recently come off a 20-year period of playing banjo only a few times a year and was playing some fiddle tunes in my Celtic/Americana band. No bluegrass. I was still a bit rusty but I knew right from wrong.

The kid suggests we play Clinch Mountain Backstep. I say I haven't played it in decades and ask him to start. Comes the B part and out comes that happy major "Old Joe Clark." And no extra beats.  I forget what I played when it came to me. But after the tune, I tell him while I haven't played Clinch Mountain Backstep in many years, I'm pretty sure he just played Old Joe Clark and CBB doesn't go that way. I reached into my memory and pulled out the closest I could remember. Then I also showed him the added two beats and said some people call that the back step. 

He would have none of it. Said he was playing it the way some old banjo player had recently showed him. I was only 57 at the time. Guess I wasn't old enough for my experience to count.
 

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