In Jim Mills's book about pre-war Mastertone banjos, he writes that "what we call 'serial numbers' on these banjos were many times shipped in no particular 'serial order' whatsoever."
He then writes, "I firmly believe this...and you can mark my words...in the next several years I think 'newly discovered information' will surface that will completely blow all of our minds concerning what we think we know about 'serial numbers' and also shipping dates on most of these old banjos."
The book was published over a decade ago -- I'm wondering if this did indeed come to pass? Did new, mind-blowing information surface that changed how we view the serial numbers on these old Gibson banjos? If so, what was it?
The conventional wisdom now is that the numbers displayed in the pre-war Gibson banjos are not serial numbers. Instead, most folks who have studied the history of these banjos are of the opinion that the numbers stamped or written in the instruments are numbers that were associated with Gibson manufacturing product orders.
Edited by - RB3 on 12/08/2024 06:38:03
If it did I would think that someone here on the HO would have mentioned it along with a great deal of discussion regarding it. Since there hasn't been any that I have seen I am assuming that the shoe hasn't dropped yet.
Bobby
I wrote "product orders" in my previous reply. I had intended to write "production orders".
I believe the numbers in pre-war Gibsons are known as FON's, Factory Order Numbers.
Here's a discussion of the pre-war numbering system, from Joe Spann, noted Gibson authority
The Spann book could be what he was referring to. I think his info changed some long standing beliefs on dates.
The major "discovery" from the Gibson SHIPPING records exposes the big discrepancies between many "production dates" and "shipping dates". Many many Gibson banjos that began life with an FON that accurately reflects the beginning of production, sat around in the factory uncompleted, or more certainly, unsold (unordered by a music store). Some even got sent out from the factory but not truly "purchased". They were unsold in music stores and returned to Gibson for "credit on account" probably. The actual PURCHASE date by some lucky musician could have been years and years later. Many parts that laid around the factory unassembled into complete banjos got involved in the late 1930s and 1940s, when very few new banjos were being "started", and got assembled from whatever was at hand - mismatching parts that have come to be called "floor sweeps".
To suggest factory order numbers aren't a good indication of true "age" or "sequencing" of manufacturing is quite an overstatement. I doubt anyone has ever found a Gibson banjo that was PURCHASED any earlier than it's FON would indicate. FONs were sequential, for the most part and not random at all. No Gibson banjo existed at all without an FON indicating the date of its birth, even if it was just the birth of a rim.
My conclusion, a banjo might be "purchased" a long time after its FON would indicate. But no banjo got purchased before it got a rational, sequential FON.
Some Gibson banjos exist without FON marked or stamped in the rim, such as TB-11 models. They may have had a number for production, but were not marked with it when sold.
Otherwise, I agree with Old Timer. Nothing was sold before it was built.
I think Joe Spann’s book is the latest and most accurate reference.
Jim Mills was referring to my book "Spann's Guide to Gibson 1902-1941". Jim and I were long-time friends. We also had the same publisher. When he wrote his book in 2009, he knew that my book was going to be published in 2011, and would change the established chronology.
For the most part, I don't believe great numbers of banjos remained at the Gibson factory prior to the Great Depression. Likewise, production numbers were much larger prior to the Depression too. I would say, from 1925 to early 1929, the banjo business was pretty lucrative........meaning, a great many banjos were manufactured and sold. Not only for Gibson, but other brands too. That all changed after the Stock Market crash.
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Originally posted by Banjo_SpannJim Mills was referring to my book "Spann's Guide to Gibson 1902-1941". Jim and I were long-time friends. We also had the same publisher. When he wrote his book in 2009, he knew that my book was going to be published in 2011, and would change the established chronology.
Thanks again for your incredible work on that book! How far back do the shipping records you have go? How often were banjos produced in earlier years shipped in those records?
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Originally posted by Banjo_SpannJim Mills was referring to my book "Spann's Guide to Gibson 1902-1941".......
Thank you Mr Spann, I am a proud owner of one of your remarkable books, Anybody who owns one of these old Gibson banjos needs to buy one of your books and thank thank you personally. (which I am doing here) ... great job!
Hello Kyle. You are welcome. To the best of my knowledge, not all of the Gibson shipping ledgers have survived, and the most important years of the late 1920's and early 1930's are among those missing. Guy Hart, the general manager of Gibson before World War II, once reported to the Board of Directors that 90% of Gibson's production in the late 1920's was banjos, and that this number had dropped to about 10% y the late 1930's.
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Originally posted by kylebquote:
Originally posted by Banjo_SpannJim Mills was referring to my book "Spann's Guide to Gibson 1902-1941". Jim and I were long-time friends. We also had the same publisher. When he wrote his book in 2009, he knew that my book was going to be published in 2011, and would change the established chronology.
Thanks again for your incredible work on that book! How far back do the shipping records you have go? How often were banjos produced in earlier years shipped in those records?
Joe, I reference your guide from time to time and it's a great source to me. Any chance you're ever going to do the next range of years of Gibson?
That's the plan, after I retire from my work at Gruhn Guitars. Until then, there's just no time for a project of that size.
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Originally posted by DRL777Joe, I reference your guide from time to time and it's a great source to me. Any chance you're ever going to do the next range of years of Gibson?
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Originally posted by Joe SpannThat's the plan, after I retire from my work at Gruhn Guitars. Until then, there's just no time for a project of that size.quote:
Originally posted by DRL777Joe, I reference your guide from time to time and it's a great source to me. Any chance you're ever going to do the next range of years of Gibson?
That gives me hope! Thanks joe!
