Hey banjo friends,
I just took possession of a Gibson trapdoor conversion banjo. Astute readers will remember that Tremont Auctions sold it back in October: banjohangout.org/topic/399978/#5063688
Anyway, I finally got it home through a string of cousins who live between Boston and NY. Now I was hoping to get some help in figuring out what it is and how I can make it all it can be.
The label inside the pot says this Gibson is guaranteed by the Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Co. in Kalamazoo Mich. There’s also a stamped serial number inside the pot; it was hard to get a photo of, but it looks like it says 11052A-47.
The tailpiece has eight slots which makes me guess it could have started life as a mandolin banjo. There’s 24 hooks holding the retaining ring. The tone ring has a lot of holes; I’m not going to count them.
The neck is pretty thick, though it’s got a nice V shape to it above the fifth fret. There are no markings or labels on it, just the star inlay. The tuners seem nice and new, also no markings on them.
The bridge is a solid piece of wood with no strip of harder wood or anything; I've never seen a bridge like it. Bridge is just a hair over ½”
The action is, frankly, kind of appalling. It’s 2mm at the first fret and 5mm at the 12th fret. 8mm at the 22nd fret.
Here’s the description Tremont posted on the auction listing; I have no idea where they got this info:
THE GIBSON TRAP DOOR banjo, 5 string conversion. Originally a tenor instrument, this trap door pot (with tone ring atop steel ball bearings) was found orphaned in a collection of instruments being sold at The Piano Mill, Rockland, MA. The pot was then married to an Eastman neck fashioned for John Bernunzio and otfitted with Waverly tuners. Set up by luthier Zach Hoyt, of New York. A lovely example of this classic conversion instrument; 22 frets on a robust mahogany neck; 22 nickel plated hooks & nuts on trap door rim; calf skin head. Scale 25-1/2" Pot: 10-1/2" Nut: 1-5/8"
What do you think? Any and all info is welcome; this is my first vintage banjo purchase.
Edited by - kayakeradam on 12/07/2024 05:08:43
quote:
Originally posted by kayakeradamHey banjo friends,
I just took possession of a Gibson trapdoor conversion banjo. …
The tailpiece has eight slots which makes me guess it could have started life as a mandolin banjo. There’s 24 hooks holding the retaining ring. The tone ring has a lot of holes; I’m not going to count them.
I have no idea where they got this info:THE GIBSON TRAP DOOR banjo, 5 string conversion. Originally a tenor instrument, this trap door pot (with tone ring atop steel ball bearings) was found orphaned in a collection of instruments being sold at The Piano Mill, Rockland, MA. The pot was then married to an Eastman neck fashioned for John Bernunzio and otfitted with Waverly tuners. Set up by luthier Zach Hoyt, of New York. A lovely example of this classic conversion instrument; 22 frets on a robust mahogany neck; 22 nickel plated hooks & nuts on trap door rim; calf skin head. Scale 25-1/2" Pot: 10-1/2" Nut: 1-5/8"
What do you think? Any and all info is welcome; this is my first vintage banjo purchase.
The 3 and 4 all used the same 8-string Waverly tailpiece. You are missing the engraved cover — nickel plated on the 3. Non-engraved, 3-lobe Waverly covers can sometimes be found—you'll have to work the cover flange to fit the cast tailpiece but it can be done.
This was a TB-3 if those balls are not sitting on springs; it's a TB-4 if there are springs beneath the balls.
There are plenty of pictures of the RB-3 and RB-4 on the internet. I traded my RB-3 to David Grisman in 1995. Mine had a 24 fret neck with 22 frets clear of the pot and the other 2 on an extension over the head. Correct scale is the standard Gibson 26 1/4".
Here is Buell Kazee playing one of his RB-3s—he had at least three. The grained ivoroid finger rest is original to these.
Whoa! Gibson has a TB-3 on their web site. Too bad that it's also missing the engraved cover. The geared pegs are original but RB had straight friction pegs. I may have a set in a parts box but I would recommend planetary pegs. Since the logo does not interfere, might as well use GOTOH. No need for AMBs on a proper repro neck.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 12/06/2024 20:12:11
The FON shown in the OP was the first batch of Gibson RB-3s from 1924. I have records of 5 other RB-3s in that batch, with the highest bin of -43. Spann also shows it as RB-3. So I suggest that the OPs banjo was originally an RB-3, unless they slipped a TB into that batch, but all of these early RB lots are "pure".
Edited by - BTuno on 12/07/2024 08:44:05
Bruce, you're saying it was a RB? As in 5-string? The neck is definitely not original. I'd expect it started as either a tenor or a mandolin and got a conversion? The the five strings have that same 8 slot tailpiece?
BTW, I changed out the bridge that came with it for a Snuffy Smith and the difference in sound was kind of shocking.
Yes, from the first batch or Gibson RB-3s (5-string).
Cool banjo; I'd play it! Question: what was the purpose/idea behind the trap door banjos?
>The the five strings have that same 8 slot tailpiece?<
As I posted earlier, they all used the same Waverly 8 string tailpiece including my RB-3.
>Spann also shows it as RB-3. So I suggest that the OPs banjo was originally an RB-3, unless they slipped a TB into that batch, but all of these early RB lots are "pure"<
That's speculation. We have no reason to believe that the entire batch was "pure". This is Gibson that we're discussing. FON 11041A is known to include MB-4 and TB-4; 11068A includes TB-4 and PB-4 — these are based on shipping records and instruments that have been found and recorded later.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 12/08/2024 14:27:15
Indeed there were many Gibson batches with mixed styles. Here, I was specifically referring to the 9 known batches of Gibson RBs from 1924 (total of 39 RBs known). None of the batches include a TB. As I acknowledged previously, there is always a chance that they slipped a TB in a batch. However, the probability of that, based on the existing data, is zero. I'd wager that the OPs banjo was an orphaned rim assembly with a replacement (not repro) neck.
Thanks, Bruce. Yes, the auction listing did say something about it being orphaned. That's probably what happened.
So the tailpiece is "correct" for a five sting. Interesting. I had been thinking of replacing it with something adjustable, but maybe I shouldn't. Though it's already a "parts banjo," so I guess there's no harm.
I reached out to Bernunzio Music, and they confirmed that the neck is a mahogany Fairbanks Whyte Laydie neck by Eastman. They referred to it as "heavily modified." They said the necks were built to the same specs of a pre-fire Fairbanks Whyte Laydie.
I have to admit, when I first picked it up, I thought it was crazy thick; but it's surprisingly comfortable.
how Does one go about experimenting with another tailpiece on this type of pot assembly? It doesn’t appear easily done if he want to experiment with another tailpiece as poster queried? I’m curious now too , it looks like you’re pretty fixed in on that tailpiece?
I have maple Eastman neck and they are chubby, and you get used to it quick. Great necks.
After looking at pix more, the only way I can see you could install an adjustable tailpiece would be to purchase 2 period correct brackets and remove that factory tailpiece as a unit. Then you’d likely have to have a good machinist make a hole for tailpiece rod to go through. It might clear the tube without making a hole. And you’d put your regular tailpiece hanger bracket on your lower rod coming through the rim.
I have never done this and do not know if tone would improve. And, it’d depend on what you expect to get out of it, to whether an improvement or not. My desires on clawhammer banjos, are worlds different from what I like for playing Scruggs style traditional songs. The response rates and decay, brightness, etc are worlds apart. I don’t even like steel strings for clawhammer. But, even with clawhammer, I prefer a tailpiece with pressure on the front. I’m not a “no knot” fan much, but have rarely met a Presto or copy I didn’t like. Presto copy imports seem to have slid into a ditch years ago. I used to feel their copies were just as good as a more expensive Prucha, but few years ago I started noticing import tailpieces don’t get it.
If you could accomplish without drilling a hole in your flange tube for the tailpiece bolt, you could try it, and reverse and know if sound improved, to your specific needs.
Honestly, I've give zero thought to the tailpiece since I wrote the original post. I've had some neck issues that I've been dealing with under another topic. But I slapped a bandaid on it for now while I'm waiting for some parts from banjomart.
Still, I gotta say I'm kind of falling in love with this weird little banjo. I came home from a 4.5 hour jam with my hands and fingertips aching, and I just played it for another 30 minutes. I kind of can't put it down.
