Are you familiar with general music theory?

Thanks to a lot of help from people on here I do...nothing extensive, just the basics

Hi Patrick,, I notice that you’re new to this according to your homepage. Are you learning more advanced or beginners’ arrangements? I know I’m a broken record on this, but if you’re having trouble finishing tunes off with polish, you might be attempting ones that use slides, pulloffs, & hammer-ons with continuous picking - difficult for a first year player. I’m just assuming so set me straight if need be.

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Originally posted by Patrick1962

Thanks to a lot of help from people on here I do...nothing extensive, just the basics

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You might try looking at some sheet music for the songs you're working on. Tab is real straight forward and specific, but there are a lot of things written about dynamics, feel, and delivery in traditional notation. That might open up some areas of awareness for you to focus on.

Just a thought..

I've been playing banjo for about 10 years, and I still have trouble polishing songs. I'll be watching this thread as well.

Polishing to me means specifics, not general ability to play a song. Getting something just right, down to even working on a single note, or slide, or pull-off. If I'm "polishing" a song, I'm most likely not practicing more than 4 beat sections at a time. Look at the old threads about how to get a snappy 3-2 pulloff. That's polishing.

For me, "learning" a song is learning the chord progression and melody. After that, everything is "polishing." However, the word "polishing" suggests a process designed to produce a finished product. I prefer the phrase Harold Streeter (Banjo II Course) uses: that after you learn how to play a song, you then can begin "playing with the song." There is no final song at the end of this road. It's an ongoing journey: adding, changing, moving around the neck, and so forth. As long as the melody, harmony (chords), and rhythm stays the same, you can "polish" forever.

Hi Patrick
Your original post suggests that your primary learning method is the use of tab. Tab can be really useful, and in some ways I wish more of it had been available when I was first learning many, many years ago. However, I do believe that the very best way to learn to play with (some of) the advanced techniques and expressive 'polish' exhibited by the players we all so admire is to listen, listen and listen a lot more to the playing of advanced players (not just tabs of their playing), then try to emulate the sound you hear. Today's tab software (particularly 'Tabledit' which I regard as a superb product) can only do so much to mirror the intent of the writer, and that's provided that he or she is a skilled user. The sophisticated timing, dynamics, emphasis and 'feel' of a player like Bill Keith for example is very difficult to fully and accurately mimic in a tab. I'd suggest you select a tune you've learned from tab and for which you have an actual recording. Record yourself playing the tune, listen very closely to what you've played, then compare that to your recording of the artist playing that tune. Note the differences and try to incorporate them into your playing. Repeat endlessly!
Good luck and enjoy the journey.

To answer a lot of you alls questions I started with some relatively simple songs, You are My Sunshine, Cripple Creek, and Red River Valley. I also memorized the main 16 bars of FMB. I know..FMB is not a beginners song...but I figured I had already practiced all of the licks for it and when I looked at the actual tab it wasn't all that difficult to tie those licks together. I knew that it would take me a very long time to get it up to speed so I started sooner rather than later. Surprisingly FMB and CC are not the ones giving me the most trouble..its the other 2. I guess I should explain how Ive been practicing up to this point. I started by working on nothing but skills and techniques-rolls, L hand fret drills/scales, slides, hammerons, pulloffs, chords and chord progressions, and half a dozen licks that I saw were used in a massive amount of songs. I did that for the first 9 months with the intention to it it for at least a year , year and a half. But quite a few of the more exp players/teachers on here strongly suggested that I needed to do songs..so I did. I found a site where the guy not only had tab but MP3's both slow and fast as well as a video that takes you through the song step by step, split screen showing R and L hands with the tab at the bottom. I have mostly concluded that my problem is mostly due to timing. I don't seem to have a problem picking out just the melody or rolling/vamping through chord progressions. But I just cant seem to sync the two up. I cant seem to figure out how or why its wrong so I have no idea how to fix it. I sincerely apologize for this being so damn long but you all cant diagnose the problem and suggest a remedy if you don't have all the info you need.

If timing seems to be your problem, then that's what you need to work on. Take a tab, any tab, figure out if it's in 2/4 or 4/4 and then count off each measure as you pick the song. If your count is right, the song will be right. Know the difference between a quarter note, 8th note and a 16th note and count them as such. That should help you in the timing department.

When you understand the timing, the rest should fall into place after a little work and practice.

Thanks Sherry..thats kinda the direction I was thinking of going

Hi Patrick,
To help you along it’s important to realize that your picking hand has to know what it’s doing before you can add in your fretting hand. This includes timing as well as picking accuracy. Practice playing licks, rolls, and whole songs in time with just the picking hand (fretting hand just holding the neck) and counting out the beat with the help of a metronome or drum machine, backing track, or similar phone accompaniment app. Likewise, if you know a song fairly well but are having trouble with just a measure or two, or a specific lick or passage, then go back to the basics of just using the picking hand until you get it right. Then add the fretting dynamic.
This method has helped me over the years and I continue to rely on it occasionally.

Polishing a song can only be done after learning the song so well that you can play it through in time and  without stumbling. 

Play with other pickers (not just banjo pickers). That will give you context that tab and solo practice can't. It will also give you clues as to what to leave out or embellish. It's a good form of editing. For example, playing "Whiskey Before Breakfast" (clawhammer), I found that the tab was too complex for accompaniment (okay for a solo), and simplified it. Playing with others will give you ideas about what to alter and what to keep. Eventually, you will come up with your own arrangements.

It sounds like you’re saying that when you can pick out the melody or rolling by itself you have no problems but when you combine the two your timing suffers?

Lawrence-yeah, like that..almost like Im trying to play 2 instruments at the same time..maybe Im just viewing it all wrong but the banjo to me is like youre playing a melody and when a note is too long you do filler notes in the general form of a roll

That’s the challenge of Scruggs style. Some notes are melody, some are not. So you need to expose the melody while smoothly rolling through the whole piece.

Send me a PM. We could do a one-off lesson, and I'm pretty confident I could help you get some things straightened out.

I suggest a good loud rhythm device--on really difficult things I have turned one up LOUD and even set to click on every other note instead of every four--I would make those melody notes count --playing extremely slow is as hard as playing extremely fast because more sustain is needed--following the middle with the pointer has always been a dread for me--
this is the way I do things--I ask no agreement

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Originally posted by Patrick1962

... maybe Im just viewing it all wrong but the banjo to me is like youre playing a melody and when a note is too long you do filler notes in the general form of a roll

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Perhaps you should reverse how you're look at the melody/roll relationship. Don't use rolls to fill the space between melody notes -- that approach is bound to create timing problems. Instead, keep the roll going (the finger pattern, that is) and adjust the strings you're picking (and notes you're fretting) so that this ongoing roll catches the melody where it belongs in the song.

In other words, the roll doesn't fill between melody notes, but the melody notes are incorporated naturally into the roll. This allows you to roll on rhythmically, without stopping and starting. Only instead of picking the 2nd string, say, as you roll through, you might pick the 3rd string (fretted at the 2nd fret) to catch that A melody note at (or close enough to) where it is in the song. 

I agree with Harry about "listen, listen and listen a lot more" and would add; learn the words. Learning the words and singing along (out loud or in my head) helps me make the tune and timing sound 'right'.

I guess I'll just count slower when I play a difficult passage than when I play an easy one. That's why counting isn't for me. I rather play with a backing track to work on my timing. But checking your own timing when playing to any sort of reference will always require a learning process. I guess with a backing track it is easier to notice left-over notes that don't fit with the new chord or notes you played earlier than they were supposed to be played.

So, learning a Tab is not learning a song. It is learning one possible arrangement of a song.
Learning a song, at least for me, is learning the melody, rhythm, chords, and lyrics if applicable. A good tab can help you find those.

Trying to play just chords and singing a song can help a lot to have that song in your head. It might be easier to strum a guitar or a uke than picking a banjo at this point but you can also strum a banjo.

Next try to play the melody/chords on the banjo with simple rolls. Melody can stand out better if your rolls are more consistent, usually a lot of forward or TITM rolls. If you can find a guitar player to play backup for you it is very helpful. If they sing you can play simple back up because 90% of banjo playing is backup, you need to learn it.
Experienced people might do all that in a few minutes, beginners maybe a week but it gets easier.

Now you can try polishing. Try to find any melody notes you're missing and add them in. Ask someone musical if they can recognize the song. Try playing it a bit faster. Go back to a tab and see if there are any licks you might add in, maybe alter a chord, e.g. change a bar of C to C7. Put a tag ending on.

Good Luck

I'm seeing a lot of ways people are learning to play the banjo. I played guitar for 60 years, and developed a method for learning songs from other writers, and songs that I composed. With the guitar, I eventually came to know where all the sounds were on the fretboard and my fingers automatically went to where that sound was. Because I'm new to the banjo, and because G banjo tuning is different from guitar tuning, I'm having to relearn this technique.

I have been using a program called "Musescore" for many years. It's free for Mac, Windows, and Linux. When I find a tune I want to play, whether it's in standard music notation, tabs, or a YouTube of someone playing the tune, I will write it out in Musescore, then add tabs and begin to arrange it as close to the Melodic style as I can. Musescore allows me to play the tune over and over until I can hum it, and once I can hum it, I begin to learn it.

Bluegrass in not my thing, but some Classical Banjo, Pop Tunes like "Putting On The Ritz", and my current insanity, "Blue Rondo a la Turk" by Dave Brubeck in 9/8 time is keeping me busy.

Bottom line, If I Can Hum It, I Can (eventually) Play It.

I hope that's useful. What works for me might work for you. You may have to tweak it a bit. "When life gives you tangerines, learn to think tangentially".
Don Brunetti Franklin, TN

Sometimes it is possible to identify particular licks, some very common, that are used and sometimes repeated in a song/tune. It could help to smooth out the details if these licks, especially the tricky ones, are isolated and worked on individually as individual bars of music In other words, think of the song/tune as sections that are connected rather than as one whole piece of music. The added advantage is that these licks can be used in other songs/tunes as well.

In most cases -- especially jam songs and tunes, or band repertoire (when I was gigging) -- I learn songs quickly and polish them forever.