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Jan 20, 2025 - 4:21:44 AM

phb

Germany

4172 posts since 11/8/2010

Wouldn't a US American have understood "bluegrass music" as "Kentucky-type music" or "music originated from Kentucky" and, if he did, until what point in time would that have been the predominant interpretation? I mean, cajun music is also both a musical style and a designation of geographical origin. Why should it have been different for Kentucky, the blue grass state? Perhaps "bluegrass" could become a music style more easily because there seem to be few other immaterial cultural goods associated with Kentucky. For "cajun" I am at least aware of cajun food but the distance from either may make me ignorant of other notable things.

Jan 20, 2025 - 5:08:22 PM
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6375 posts since 3/6/2006

You would only think of it as Kentucky type music because Bill Monroe was from there. It was he who put together a synthesis of jazz, gospel, blues and mountain music. It didn’t exist before 1941.

Jan 20, 2025 - 8:14:29 PM

7045 posts since 10/13/2007

quote:
Originally posted by phb

Wouldn't a US American have understood "bluegrass music" as "Kentucky-type music" or "music originated from Kentucky" and, if he did, until what point in time would that have been the predominant interpretation? I mean, cajun music is also both a musical style and a designation of geographical origin. Why should it have been different for Kentucky, the blue grass state? Perhaps "bluegrass" could become a music style more easily because there seem to be few other immaterial cultural goods associated with Kentucky. For "cajun" I am at least aware of cajun food but the distance from either may make me ignorant of other notable things.


No a US American did not and would not have understood "bluegrass music" as Kentucky type music" or "music originated from Kentucky".  Bands had many names of many places. Bluegrass was known with Bill Monroe and not the name of his band. When people first heard Bill play it, he was the only one in KY and in the whole world playing it.

And Cajun music has its roots in the French speaking Acadians of Canada.

Ken

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 01/20/2025 20:16:23

Jan 20, 2025 - 8:25:24 PM

chuckv97

Canada

73540 posts since 10/5/2013

There is a label of “Kentucky thumb-style” guitar,, which refers to what Merle Travis and his predecessors played - Ike Everly, Mose Rager, and others- but I’m not sure if many Americans would know what that meant. Travis style or Chet Atkins style would probably ring a bell for most folks.

Jan 20, 2025 - 8:36:48 PM

OK-4

USA

507 posts since 3/18/2011

Contra some of the answers here, my guess is that your average Americans generally DOES understand bluegrass music as having something to do with Kentucky, have thought so ever since they first heard of a music called "bluegrass," and continue to think so. The average American has had little exposure to bluegrass music except occasionally in a Hollywood movie soundtrack or TV commercial, so they don't think about it much.

And if they think broader than Kentucky, they are thinking vaguely of Southern Appalachia.

Jan 20, 2025 - 8:44:30 PM
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16094 posts since 6/2/2008

I think anyone who is aware of Kentucky's nickname "the bluegrass state" would probably think bluegrass music comes from Kentucky or has some connection with Kentucky. That doesn't make them right.

I assume (possibly incorrectly) there are more Americans today who know of "the bluegrass state" than know the name Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys, which is undoubtedly the source of the name bluegrass music.

I also assume "bluegrass state," where Monroe was born, was the inspiration for his band's name. But seeing as Monroe moved to Indiana when he was 18, the band wasn't from Kentucky. So neither is bluegrass music.

I have never heard anyone call it "Kentucky-type music." That's just not a term in American English.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 01/20/2025 20:48:18

Jan 21, 2025 - 4:47:27 AM

phb

Germany

4172 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
quote:
Originally posted by phb

Wouldn't a US American have understood "bluegrass music" as "Kentucky-type music" or "music originated from Kentucky" and, if he did, until what point in time would that have been the predominant interpretation? I mean, cajun music is also both a musical style and a designation of geographical origin. Why should it have been different for Kentucky, the blue grass state? Perhaps "bluegrass" could become a music style more easily because there seem to be few other immaterial cultural goods associated with Kentucky. For "cajun" I am at least aware of cajun food but the distance from either may make me ignorant of other notable things.


No a US American did not and would not have understood "bluegrass music" as Kentucky type music" or "music originated from Kentucky".  Bands had many names of many places. Bluegrass was known with Bill Monroe and not the name of his band. When people first heard Bill play it, he was the only one in KY and in the whole world playing it.

Was Kentucky called "the bluegrass state" before bluegrass became a musical genre? I thought that, if Kentucky had chosen blue grass to be the thing that set Kentucky apart from other states, people might just have used this reference for anything that came from Kentucky. I believe "dixie" is used in a similar way as I thought "bluegrass" may have been used.

 

And Cajun music has its roots in the French speaking Acadians of Canada.

Louisiana, right?

Jan 21, 2025 - 5:05:15 AM

phb

Germany

4172 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory

I also assume "bluegrass state," where Monroe was born, was the inspiration for his band's name. But seeing as Monroe moved to Indiana when he was 18, the band wasn't from Kentucky. So neither is bluegrass music.

But Bill Monroe's music wasn't created out of nothing. He took all sort of influences and quite a lot of them were local to where he grew up. He himself chose to associate himself strongly with Kentucky. His most famous song is "Blue Moon of Kentucky", after all.

When I read the quote above introducing Bobby Sumner as a “bluegrass fiddler from way down in old Kentucky” as early as 1949, I wondered whether anyone would have been introduced at that time as "a bluegrass fiddler from North Carolina" or any other place. I wondered whether at that instance "bluegrass fiddler" was really supposed to mean "not old time, not jazz, not concert hall music nor any other genre that might use a fiddle but music in the style created by Bill Monroe" or rather "from Kentucky".

I have to admit that I am pretty ignorant as to what distinguishes bluegrass fiddling from old time fiddling. Quite a few fiddlers that attend to bluegrass jams over here also play in old-time jams and many jams officially allow both types. Bluegrass fiddlers usually don't come in groups and probably play more blue notes but other than that there seems to be a lot of overlap. When it comes to fiddling, I enjoy it if it's good and I dread it if it's bad fiddling. smiley

 

I have never heard anyone call it "Kentucky-type music." That's just not a term in American English

Well, I made that up in an attempt to explain what I mean. I believe that hot sauces based on red chili peppers and vinegar are often called "Louisiana-style" or similar because they can't put "Tabasco" on the bottle. But really that sort of sauce was created by a single entity, not a state, too.

Edited by - phb on 01/21/2025 05:07:07

Jan 21, 2025 - 6:48:29 AM

7045 posts since 10/13/2007

Philipp,
What you are saying, the conclusions you are trying to draw ("Wouldn't a US American have understood "bluegrass music" as "Kentucky-type music" or "music originated from Kentucky") have no basis in reality or history. Read Rosenburg's book or any other reputable book on the history of bluegrass music. You are trying to use logical conceptions to write history and it does not work out.
Ken

Jan 21, 2025 - 7:11:52 AM

5004 posts since 3/28/2008

quote:
Originally posted by phb
 

Was Kentucky called "the bluegrass state" before bluegrass became a musical genre? I thought that, if Kentucky had chosen blue grass to be the thing that set Kentucky apart from other states, people might just have used this reference for anything that came from Kentucky. I believe "dixie" is used in a similar way as I thought "bluegrass" may have been used.

 


Yes, it's borne that nickname for a long time. Many (all?) of the US states have nicknames. Some are not all that well known (e.g., Connecticut is "the nutmeg state" and Maryland, where I live, is "the free state" IIRC), but I think "the bluegrass state" is pretty well known over here as a nickname for Kentucky.

Jan 21, 2025 - 8:24:13 AM

RB3

USA

2262 posts since 4/12/2004
Online Now

phb,

Maybe a little chronology on Bluegrass would be helpful.

First, the name originally comes from a type of turfgrass that is commonly present in the US. Why is it called "Bluegrass" if it's actually green? Here's what Google gives you if you ask that question.

"Legend has it that when early settlers looked out on the fields of Poa pratensis in Central Kentucky, the seed heads took on a purplish hue. In the sun, it looked blue-green. Hence, the name bluegrass was born."

The thoroughbred race-horse industry is one of the things for which the state of Kentucky is famous. Most of the big farms where those horses are raised are concentrated in an area around the city of Lexington. The grass that grows in the pastures of those farms is Bluegrass. Accordingly, that geographical area has long been referred to as the "Bluegrass Region". Because of the importance of the race-horse industry to Kentucky, the state came to be known as the "Bluegrass State"

Although he lived and worked in several different areas, Bill Monroe always considered himself to be a proud Kentuckian. When he needed a name for his band, he chose the word "Bluegrass" because of its association with Kentucky. Sometime in the Fifties or Sixties, someone decided that the music played by Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, The Stanley Brothers and others was a unique musical genre, and that a name for the genre was needed. Because Bill was first, the name of his band was appropriated for the new genre.

The other Bluegrass Boys who were in Monroe's band when Scruggs became a member in the mid-Forties were, Lester Flatt, Chubby Wise, and Cedric Rainwater. Scruggs was from North Carolina, Flatt was from Tennessee, and Wise and Rainwater were from Florida. All of the band members had something to do with the creation of the new genre. Accordingly, I think that the arguments that "Bluegrass" is not exclusively a music of Kentucky is valid.

Jan 21, 2025 - 8:29:45 AM
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phb

Germany

4172 posts since 11/8/2010

Just to make this clear, I am not trying to argue that Bill Monroe did not create bluegrass music, I was wondering whether, caused by his creative work and success in creating the style, the term "bluegrass" morphed from a more geographic description at first (instigated by the use of the word for the band name that certainly alluded to Kentucky) into an abstract term giving name to the style created by Bill Monroe. My questions were honest questions and not just a style of arguing my point.

Jan 21, 2025 - 8:37:09 AM

phb

Germany

4172 posts since 11/8/2010

quote:
Originally posted by RB3

Sometime in the Fifties or Sixties, someone decided that the music played by Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, The Stanley Brothers and others was a unique musical genre, and that a name for the genre was needed.


As quoted above, Carter Stanley referred to a fiddler as a "bluegrass fiddler" as early as 1949. Within the same sentence he specified that the fiddler was from Kentucky. If the fiddler had been from any other state, I would have considered this as evidence that "bluegrass" was an established genre name in 1949 already. But if there is room for doubt, then what did Carter really want to say? Was he speaking of a fiddler playing this new style of music or was he just redundant about the fiddler being from Kentucky? That's all I was wondering about and where my questions really started. I am sorry if I seem obnoxious. It's just my curiosity taking control of me... smiley

Jan 21, 2025 - 8:53:25 AM

16094 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom


- * “A recently discovered radio broadcast transcription made by the Stanley Brothers at WCYB in the spring of 1949 carries the words of Carter Stanley as he introduced Bobby Sumner as a “bluegrass fiddler from way down in old Kentucky”. P 89
 


Even though I liked this post from a month ago, this particular factoid did not sink in.

So in 1949 we have Carter Stanley -- by then in the business of copying Bill Monroe's act -- using the term "bluegrass" to refer to a style of music.

This puts the usage earlier than many of us (myself included) have believed. But seeing as it comes 2-1/2 years after the December 1946 debut of the Flatt & Scruggs lineup of the Blue Grass Boys that is called the birth of bluegrass, this doesn't change my belief that "bluegrass music" as a term for the genre is still based on or derived from the name of the band.

Only a verified use before the existence of the Blue Grass Boys would make me think otherwise.

Jan 21, 2025 - 9:14:30 AM
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RB3

USA

2262 posts since 4/12/2004
Online Now

phb

I find nothing wrong with any of your comments or questions. I was just trying to help you understand the chronology and why some would object to associating the music exclusively with Kentucky.

I'm sure that there are Kentuckians who consider the music to be exclusively of Kentucky, but I don't. I've lived in Kentucky for about 35 years, but I'm an immigrant; I'm originally from Ohio.

Jan 21, 2025 - 9:14:39 AM
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16094 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by phb
. . . what did Carter really want to say? Was he speaking of a fiddler playing this new style of music or was he just redundant about the fiddler being from Kentucky? That's all I was wondering about and where my questions really started. I am sorry if I seem obnoxious. It's just my curiosity taking control of me... 

We'll never know.

I can see it both ways.

You weren't being obnoxious. I took your posts as being a non-native speaker expressing curiosity about our language and how we use it to describe this music that so many of us are interested in.

And your English is outstanding.

Jan 21, 2025 - 9:48:38 AM
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janolov

Sweden

43174 posts since 3/7/2006
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According to Wikipedia: 

Poa pratensis, commonly known as Kentucky bluegrass (or blue grass), smooth meadow-grass, or common meadow-grass, is a perennial species of grass native to practically all of Europe, North Asia and the mountains of Algeria and Morocco. There is disagreement about its native status in North America, with some sources considering it native and others stating the Spanish Empire brought the seeds of Kentucky bluegrass to the New World in mixtures with other grasses.[6] It is a common and incredibly popular lawn grass in North America with the species being spread over all of the cool, humid parts of the United States. In its native range, Poa pratensis forms a valuable pasture plant, characteristic of well-drained, fertile soil. It is also used for making lawns in parks and gardens and has established itself as a common invasive weed across cool moist temperate climates like the Pacific Northwest and the Northeastern United States. When found on native grasslands in Canada, for example, it is considered an unwelcome exotic plant, and is indicative of a disturbed and degraded landscape.

We all should be glad that the music is not called Poa Pratensis music.

Jan 21, 2025 - 10:13:47 AM
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230 posts since 6/22/2016

quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by phb
. . . what did Carter really want to say? Was he speaking of a fiddler playing this new style of music or was he just redundant about the fiddler being from Kentucky? That's all I was wondering about and where my questions really started. I am sorry if I seem obnoxious. It's just my curiosity taking control of me... 

We'll never know.

I think perhaps we do know.  There was about 1950 an intense rivalry between the Stanleys and Monroe, who was offended that they were copying his style and presentation.  Monroe was calling his style "Bluegrass" and others were hopping on that haywagon and calling their music "Bluegrass" as well because of brand familiarity. 

It's really amusing hearing Ralph in later years refer to his music as "Old-time Bluegrass" music.  He knew what he was doing, and so did Carter Stanley when he called his fiddler "Bluegrass."  The real dustup happened when the Stanleys began recording on Columbia, Monroe's label.  Monroe threw a hissy fit and wound up leaving the label for Decca.  They managed to make up at some later point and both Stanleys played with the Bluegrass Boys at some temporary point.


Jan 21, 2025 - 10:31:50 AM
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16094 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by phb
[KN] I have never heard anyone call it "Kentucky-type music." That's just not a term in American English


[PHB] Well, I made that up in an attempt to explain what I mean. I believe that hot sauces based on red chili peppers and vinegar are often called "Louisiana-style" or similar because they can't put "Tabasco" on the bottle. But really that sort of sauce was created by a single entity, not a state, too.


Entirely different and partly not the point. There are spices, sauces (some hot) and flavors that are intrinsic to Cajun and Creole cuisines, which arose in southern Louisiana.

So competing spices and sauces are called "Louisiana style," because more broadly and generically that's what they are. They can be any number of spices. Tabasco is one brand named product. Full name on the label: McIlhenny Co. (maker) Tabasco (brand) pepper sauce (generic/category). Tabasco sauce is one ingredient in Cajun and Creole cuisine. But because it's more about heat than taste, it doesn't contribute much to flavor (in my opinion). And that's somewhat off point.

More to the point: Cajun and Creole cuisine come from Louisiana, while bluegrass music does not come from Kentucky.

Jan 21, 2025 - 10:42:48 AM
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7045 posts since 10/13/2007

Philipp,
I just did not want misinformation to occur. I appreciate your sincerity in this conversation. Please accept my apologies if I came out sounding otherwise.
For the record in this conversation, Here is a quote from Monroe:
He described the genre as "Scottish bagpipes and ole-time fiddlin'. It's Methodist and Holiness and Baptist. It's blues and jazz, and it has a high lonesome sound."[4]He described the genre as "Scottish bagpipes and ole-time fiddlin'. It's Methodist and Holiness and Baptist. It's blues and jazz, and it has a high lonesome sound."[4]

Jan 21, 2025 - 10:58:11 AM

chuckv97

Canada

73540 posts since 10/5/2013

Here’s Mike Seeger’s short definition from the liner notes of this late 1950’s LP that was one of my first bluegrass albums.
folkways-media.si.edu/docs/fol...40038.pdf


 

Edited by - chuckv97 on 01/21/2025 11:06:26

Jan 21, 2025 - 11:11:26 AM
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chuckv97

Canada

73540 posts since 10/5/2013

and , as an aside, here’s a pre-bluegrass version of Blackerry Blossom with an E major chord in the B part instead of an E minor,, which is what Lester Flatt did on Foggy Mountain Breakdown. Bill Monroe once remarked that in old time music the guitarists stuck to major chords because that didn’t know how to play minors. On his recording of Devil’s Dream with Bill Keith in 1963, Bill and the band played a E major instead of an B minor.
youtu.be/FhLBjXLr-9I?si=kyyvX0Zip60eDfcZ


 

Edited by - chuckv97 on 01/21/2025 11:12:10

Jan 21, 2025 - 11:46:10 AM
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156 posts since 1/12/2024
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Just a few factoids to add to the discussion. But if we are going to credit Kentucky with Bluegrass music, because Kentucky is the Bluegrass state and because that is where Bill was born and raised, I was reading some stuff this morning after catching up on this thread that doesn't really support that image.

In 1929, at the age of 18, Bill went up to Indiana with his brother to work and they started a band called the Monroe Brothers. They played primarily in the Midwest. That is where it started, in Indiana. And Morgantown, Indiana is where the Bill Monroe himself founded Bluegrass Hall of Fame and where he founded the Bean Blossom Bluegrass Festival in 1984. So, it seems to me that Indiana has more of a stake in Bill Monroe and Bluegrass music as Kentucky does.

In 1938 he found himself in Little Rock and started a band called The Kentuckians that didn't last long, then he moved to Atlanta and that is where he started The Bluegrass Boys.

My point being, The Kentuckians were an Arkansas band, not a Kentucky Band. The Bluegrass Boys were a Georgia band, not a Kentucky band. I have a friend who is by his own definition is an Arizonian. Yet he left Arizona when he was twenty and has lived in Iowa over forty-five years. If he started a band in Iowa and called it The Arizona Desert Boys, would we call it an Arizona music? Just saying, any references to Kentucky is just that, a name, it doesn't define, or ever reflect, anything.

Jan 21, 2025 - 1:18:34 PM
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16094 posts since 6/2/2008

 BG Banjo:

In short: The Blue Grass Boys band was named for The Blue Grass State (Kentucky). Bluegrass music was likely named for The Blue Grass Boys. Neither the band nor the music are from Kentucky.

Jan 21, 2025 - 1:52:34 PM

1974 posts since 11/10/2022

bluegrassheritage.org/history-...ss-music/

So I saw this posted at the BG museum of Monroes. Seems to be brief, unspecific on some points, but factually accepted.

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