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Dec 22, 2024 - 4:20:46 AM
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7045 posts since 10/13/2007

quote:
Originally posted by wileypickett

In addition to accordion, Monroe also recorded a few sessions with organ accompaniment.


That was done at the instance  or urging of his producer. I believe his  last name was Bradly but not sure of that. And Monroe did not like it and never did it again.

Ken

Dec 22, 2024 - 5:07:15 AM
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Players Union Member

Eric A

USA

1951 posts since 10/15/2019

quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

From Bluegrass – A History by Neil V. Rosenberg. Generally considered to be the best work on the history of bluegrass music

- From Journal of American Folklore 1967. “that bluegrass became a “style” (Rosenberg preferred the term genre) in 1947-48 when bands like the Stanley Brothers began copying Monroe’s sound. P. 11
- Regarding the genesis of the word “bluegrass” . It was first used in print in Ralph Rinzler’s notes to American Banjo Scruggs Style. P 11.
- “I have also learned that the word was first used by fans and followers of the music” p.11
- * “A recently discovered radio broadcast transcription made by the Stanley Brothers at WCYB in the spring of 1949 carries the words of Carter Stanley as he introduced Bobby Sumner as a “bluegrass fiddler from way down in old Kentucky”. P 89
- Everett Lilly who played with Flatt and Scruggs from 50-52 tells this story: “I do recall people saying this to us, they would ask Lester and Earl to do a Bill Monroe tune. Lester and Earl did not want to hear that name, or at least I don’t believe they did, and I believe the public could feel that. The public began to say, “Boys, would you please d one of them old Blue Grass tunes like you used to do?” they knew me and Lester could sing them duets like him and Bill. They’d say “would you please do an old bluegrass tune?”…the public named bluegrass music…through the fear to speak Bill’s name to ‘em.” P 102

Ken


I believe this story is correct.  The public asking Lester and Earl to do some of those tunes they used to do with Bill.  Which they of course did not want to do at all.  The crowd, trying to tippy toe around the feud,  was calling for those bluegrass (boys) tunes.

Dec 22, 2024 - 6:22:26 AM
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5004 posts since 3/28/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by Fathand

If a jazz band performs Blueridge Cabin Home it becomes a jazz song. If a Bluegrass band performs World is Waiting for a Sunrise it becomes a bluegrass song. Most genres of music are defined by the performance.


Right. Earl Scruggs did not compose the bluegrass instrumental Bugle Call Rag. He created a bluegrass banjo arrangement of clarinet player Benny Goodman's swing band composition.


By the time Goodman record it, it had been around for a dozen years or so. Here's the earliest recorded version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tael4D5N6PA .

Dec 22, 2024 - 6:39:58 AM

5004 posts since 3/28/2008

Uh--"recordED".

Dec 22, 2024 - 12:07:02 PM
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16094 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by BG Banjo

But if Bluegrass Junction is the arbitrator of what Bluegrass is today, Jaelee Robert's Stuck In The Middle With You opens the door to anything. And Jaelee Roberts is born and raised on Bluegrass, so I'm just saying that Bluegrass is evolving and some people get stuck in the past, just like everything.


Her being born and raised on bluegrass and maybe being a bluegrass musician doesn't make everything she performs or records bluegrass.

I'm undecided as to whether I'd call her recording of Stuck in the Middle with You bluegrass. I actually just wrote that I wouldn't and then changed it undecided. I hear the obvious bluegrass influence. And I certainly heard the Dillards live plenty of times in the '70s with drums and then electric bass the final time (Mitch Jayne having left the group by then). This sounds to me exactly like something the Dillards would have done back then. Remember, they were the first bluegrass band to record I've Just Seen a Face and Yesterday.

Hearing Stuck in the Middle done this way makes me wish my 1980s bluegrass band had thought of doing this song. A big chunk of our repertoire -- and always the best received -- was our rock and pop stuff done bluegrass style.

I can see where bluegrass purists wouldn't like this.

Dec 22, 2024 - 12:13:29 PM

16094 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Aradobanjo

The copyright act allowed for specific instruments for a song to be copyrighted. Elvis’s song was amplified. Bill’s song was acoustic.


Don't know about that.

What the Copyright act allows is for anyone to put any previously recorded song on their own record, without the songwriter's prior approval, and pay for that use. It's called a compulsory license. Payment rates are set by the Copyright Royalty Board.

Dec 22, 2024 - 12:15:17 PM
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7045 posts since 10/13/2007

quote:
Originally posted by phb
quote:
Originally posted by banjonz
 

Bluegrass didn't start with a banjo. Bill Monroe called it country music. I believe Dave akerman was their first banjo player (clawhammer) but I could be wrong. Earl joined Bill's band when he was 21; this was in 1945.


The band existed already but many say that the genre named after the band was created when Earl Scruggs joined the Blue Grass Boys in December 1945. Pete Wernick pointed out that, while Bill Monroe had had a banjo player occasionally before Earl Scruggs joined the band, he never went without one after Earl Scruggs left the band.

 


I would take exception to the statement that the "genre was created when Earl Scrugg joined the Blue Grass Boys". I would prefer to state that the genre was completed/finalized when Scruggs joined the Blue Grass Boys. Keep in mind that Bill wanted Don Reno to come into the band before Earl came in, but Reno had to go into the service. If that had happened maybe the greatest influence on banjo playing would be Reno Banjo instead of Scruggs Banjo. Keep in mind that Scruggs had been playing professionally for a few years before he joined Bill's band and he was not well known at all. Bill's music, with its intensity and drive gave Earl the perfect format in which he could highlight his "fancy banjo".  Scruggs style banjo had not been a major force in any other music except the music that Bill Monroe invented. When Bill and Charley split, Bill changed his timing from being country timing and turned it towards what it is now.

Ken

Dec 29, 2024 - 6:26:56 PM
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341 posts since 2/8/2019

Anyone on here ever think about rhythm? It is the defining characteristic of any musical genre. Think about reggae (Bob Marley) or bossa nova ("The Girl From Ipanema") songs, to mention just a couple. Bill Monroe's rhythm was his and his alone. Often imitated, but never duplicated. I did a series of videos for Radford University called "Butch Robins Presents- Blue Grass Music, its Origin and Development as a Unique and Creative Art Form". It's free and available online at: mozart.radford.edu/amc/?p=1149

I encourage anyone claiming to be interested in defining "bluegrass music" to watch and learn! Thanks for your time. Butch Robins

Dec 31, 2024 - 7:32:07 AM
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15458 posts since 1/15/2005

quote:
Originally posted by ButchRobins

Anyone on here ever think about rhythm? It is the defining characteristic of any musical genre. Think about reggae (Bob Marley) or bossa nova ("The Girl From Ipanema") songs, to mention just a couple. Bill Monroe's rhythm was his and his alone. Often imitated, but never duplicated. I did a series of videos for Radford University called "Butch Robins Presents- Blue Grass Music, its Origin and Development as a Unique and Creative Art Form". It's free and available online at: mozart.radford.edu/amc/?p=1149

I encourage anyone claiming to be interested in defining "bluegrass music" to watch and learn! Thanks for your time. Butch Robins


Butch ...... I listened to your "introduction" and have to say that I could NOT stop listening, as I found. it completely fascinating.  During the entire presentation I could not help but keep thinking about my professional as a golf course architect and how it related ...... completely.  I was blown away at the end when you mentioned golf.  I knew you were a golfer, as I spoke to you briefly about golf at Al Osteen's memorial service.  As a matter of fact, I first met Al when his band was playing at the opening of Cobb's Glen Country Club in Anderson.  Thank you so much for sitting down and making presentation, as it should be a vital part of anyone wanting to know about Bluegrass music.

Dec 31, 2024 - 8:30:25 AM
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80534 posts since 5/9/2007

Nothing at all against Don Reno's playing or legendary influence,but I believe if Don had played for Bill first that Earl would have still dominated the scene when his flowing style was first heard.

I think it is very tough to define a genre of performing arts.
Kind of like defining a language.

A language has letters/words and ways to pronounce them depending on their context.
Bluegrass has notes/keys and ways to "pronounce" them depending on their context.

In both cases the end product has a lot to do with what the "speaker" brings to the process.

Dec 31, 2024 - 9:40:36 AM
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7045 posts since 10/13/2007

quote:
Originally posted by ButchRobins

Anyone on here ever think about rhythm? It is the defining characteristic of any musical genre. Think about reggae (Bob Marley) or bossa nova ("The Girl From Ipanema") songs, to mention just a couple. Bill Monroe's rhythm was his and his alone. Often imitated, but never duplicated. I did a series of videos for Radford University called "Butch Robins Presents- Blue Grass Music, its Origin and Development as a Unique and Creative Art Form". It's free and available online at: mozart.radford.edu/amc/?p=1149

I encourage anyone claiming to be interested in defining "bluegrass music" to watch and learn! Thanks for your time. Butch Robins


Butch,

Thanks for coming in here and bringing your wealth of knowledge and resources.

Ken

Dec 31, 2024 - 10:09:54 AM

1974 posts since 11/10/2022

There are excellents informative replies here...enjoyed them all. I have a simpler approach. When managers call me to book my band, they often ask what genre my band specializes in. My usual is "Whatever the audience wants". IMHO Defining the genre is for award givers and takers, which my band will never be part of. What wins today in many genres would not have been part of the consideration 30 years ago.

Jan 3, 2025 - 4:40:25 PM

jojo25

USA

1648 posts since 12/1/2004

I know the OP asked about bluegrass...but...sometimes...when I am asked to define Old Time...I say that trying to define OT is akin to trying to catch a greased pig...when you are done you are covered with mud, grease and pig feces...and you still haven't caught the dang hog! As to the parameters of your sessions...if just one person is in charge then they can be the gatekeeper...if they say it ain't BG...then it ain't...and you move on to the next tune

Jan 7, 2025 - 9:30:30 AM

80534 posts since 5/9/2007

Who gave the music the label of "Bluegrass" originally?

Jan 8, 2025 - 4:03:51 AM
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Players Union Member

corcoran

Canada

593 posts since 8/3/2004

quote:
Originally posted by steve davis

Who gave the music the label of "Bluegrass" originally?


According to Neil Rosenberg's authoritative book "Bluegrass: A History," Everett Lilly, who played with Flatt and Scruggs from 1950 to 1952, felt that fans were aware of the bad blood between Monroe and F&S and hesitated to mention his name when requesting a tune associated with Monroe. So instead they would ask them to play one of "them old Blue Grass tunes like you used to do." Hence Lilly suggested that the public named it bluegrass music. Bill Monroe himself began to refer to bluegrass in the first documented instance from a tape of a concert in May 1956 at New River Ranch (likely recorded by Mike Seeger or Ralph Rinzler), who thanked the operator of the park as "a wonderful booster of the bluegrass type of music."

Jan 8, 2025 - 7:42:04 AM
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RB3

USA

2260 posts since 4/12/2004

Steve Davis,

Below is a BHO contribution I made a few years ago for a similar discussion. My understanding has always been that the people associated with the Folk Revival of the Fifties and Sixties were most responsible for the proliferation of the idea that the music played by Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, The Stanley Brothers, etc. was a unique musical genre separate and apart from the Country/Western genre. Monroe was first, so I guess they decided it was appropriate to borrow the name from the name of his band. I doubt that this came from a single person. I imagine that the use of the name proceeded organically among a diverse group of Folk enthusiasts

"In Bluegrass: A History, Neil Rosenberg tells the story of Earl Scruggs being hired to play at the first Newport Folk Festival.

Louise Scruggs received a phone call from one of the festival promoters, who told her that they intended to have some Bluegrass music at their festival, and they wanted to hire Earl Scruggs. Louise advised the promoter that she didn't understand what he meant by his reference to Bluegrass music and explained to him that Flatt & Scruggs were a Country & Western group. The promoter said he understood, but he still wanted to hire Earl Scruggs. She told him that if the festival dates work with their schedule and a mutually agreeable performance fee could be negotiated, Flatt & Scruggs would be happy to perform at their festival. The promoter then told her that because they did not consider Lester Flatt to be an "authentic" folk performer, they wanted only Earl Scruggs at the festival.

The first Newport Folk Festival was held in 1959, so, by that date at least, Folk Music enthusiasts must have already decided that the music played by Earl Scruggs was Folk Music and it was a unique musical genre that was being identified with the name "Bluegrass". The use of "Bluegrass" for the name of the genre was clearly derived from the name of Bill Monroe's band, so evidently, they must have also considered Monroe to be an "authentic" folk musician.

I believe that Monroe did not perform at that first festival, so it would be interesting to know if the festival promoters also tried to hire Monroe."

Jan 8, 2025 - 7:44:50 AM

8680 posts since 9/5/2006

any competent band with guitar, banjo, fiddle, bass ,, and mandolin can make just about any song a "bluegrass" song. not in the traditional bill monroe fashion but by todays standards. no one today could sell a record if they sounded just like bill monroe... flatt & scruggs didn't sound like monroe. they had their own sound. bluegrass busted out of the box more then 50 years ago with sonny and bob. to me them and the country gentlemen were the first to really push it. so its not nothing new as far as the change in what is called "bluegrass"

Jan 8, 2025 - 8:34:30 AM

288 posts since 2/7/2020

quote:
Originally posted by RB3

Louise Scruggs received a phone call from one of the festival promoters, who told her that they intended to have some Bluegrass music at their festival, and they wanted to hire Earl Scruggs. Louise advised the promoter that she didn't understand what he meant by his reference to Bluegrass music and explained to him that Flatt & Scruggs were a Country & Western group. The promoter said he understood, but he still wanted to hire Earl Scruggs. She told him that if the festival dates work with their schedule and a mutually agreeable performance fee could be negotiated, Flatt & Scruggs would be happy to perform at their festival. The promoter then told her that because they did not consider Lester Flatt to be an "authentic" folk performer, they wanted only Earl Scruggs at the festival.
 


It's wild to me that anyone would have the gall and ignorance to make such a request: "We want you but not your partner." Weird that Flatt was okay with it (maybe he wasn't).

Jan 8, 2025 - 11:05:55 AM

7045 posts since 10/13/2007

quote:
Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe
quote:
Originally posted by RB3

Louise Scruggs received a phone call from one of the festival promoters, who told her that they intended to have some Bluegrass music at their festival, and they wanted to hire Earl Scruggs. Louise advised the promoter that she didn't understand what he meant by his reference to Bluegrass music and explained to him that Flatt & Scruggs were a Country & Western group. The promoter said he understood, but he still wanted to hire Earl Scruggs. She told him that if the festival dates work with their schedule and a mutually agreeable performance fee could be negotiated, Flatt & Scruggs would be happy to perform at their festival. The promoter then told her that because they did not consider Lester Flatt to be an "authentic" folk performer, they wanted only Earl Scruggs at the festival.
 


It's wild to me that anyone would have the gall and ignorance to make such a request: "We want you but not your partner." Weird that Flatt was okay with it (maybe he wasn't).


Was that the Newport Folk Festival where Earl played with Hylo Brown?

And Louise was all about promoting & $ (and I have no problem with that. It was a tough way to make a living) and I think she was very bitter towards Bill Monroe. What she said about bluegrass music-what it is and what it isn't, is irrelevant.

Ken

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 01/08/2025 11:07:48

Jan 8, 2025 - 1:40:37 PM
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RB3

USA

2260 posts since 4/12/2004

Ken Hydinger,

You are correct about Hylo Brown. He played some with Flatt & Scruggs in the late Fifties. I suspect that Scruggs wanted a guitar player to accompany him at the Newport festival, so Hylo would have been a likely candidate. Below is a link to a recording of one of the songs they performed.  Tater Tate, another Bluegrass Boy is also on that recording.  I wonder if the Folkies at the festival deemed Hylo and Tater to also be "authentic" folk artists?

Earl Scruggs & Hylo Brown - Newport Folk Festival


 

Jan 8, 2025 - 2:02:33 PM
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Players Union Member

corcoran

Canada

593 posts since 8/3/2004

quote:
Originally posted by RB3

Ken Hydinger,

You are correct about Hylo Brown. He played some with Flatt & Scruggs in the late Fifties. I suspect that Scruggs wanted a guitar player to accompany him at the Newport festival, so Hylo would have been a likely candidate. Below is a link to a recording of one of the songs they performed.  Tater Tate, another Bluegrass Boy is also on that recording.  I wonder if the Folkies at the festival deemed Hylo and Tater to also be "authentic" folk artists?

Earl Scruggs & Hylo Brown - Newport Folk Festival


 


And somewhere, years ago, I saw a publication with a photo of Scruggs and Brown at Newport that was mis-labelled as being of Flatt and Scruggs. I suspect that the inclusion of Lester Flatt in subsequent Newport Festivals was due to the influence of people such as Jim Rooney on the festival board.

Jan 8, 2025 - 2:08:26 PM
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chuckv97

Canada

73539 posts since 10/5/2013
Online Now

Years ago I had this album of the Mercury recordings,, always wondered why the guitar player didn’t look like Lester,,,, later realized it’s Hylo.


 

Edited by - chuckv97 on 01/08/2025 14:08:51

Jan 10, 2025 - 10:06:49 AM

80534 posts since 5/9/2007

Interesting to read of the northern influence in the birth of the title.

I once read of the Foggy Mt. Boys desire to get away from the "Hillbilly" connection by adjusting their singing to steer away from 7th harmonies.

The smoother styles of Country and Western singing was thought to bring them more "uptown".

Edited by - steve davis on 01/10/2025 10:13:09

Jan 14, 2025 - 9:58:40 AM
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733 posts since 3/21/2007

If someone isn't dead by the end of the song it ain't bluegrass.

Jan 14, 2025 - 10:30:49 AM

Owen

Canada

16460 posts since 6/5/2011

I've read very few of the posts in this thread, but I wonder why bluegrass can't be defined like the pre-war sound ..... "You'll know it when you hear it."   wink

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