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Originally posted by phb

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Originally posted by banjonz

 

Bluegrass didn't start with a banjo. Bill Monroe called it country music. I believe Dave akerman was their first banjo player (clawhammer) but I could be wrong. Earl joined Bill's band when he was 21; this was in 1945.

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The band existed already but many say that the genre named after the band was created when Earl Scruggs joined the Blue Grass Boys in December 1945. Pete Wernick pointed out that, while Bill Monroe had had a banjo player occasionally before Earl Scruggs joined the band, he never went without one after Earl Scruggs left the band.

 

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I'll stir the pot even further and say that Flatt & Scruggs had more lasting influence over "Bluegrass" as a genre than Bill Monroe ever did. If there's only one band that defines the genre, it's the Foggy Mountain Boys and not the Blue Grass Boys.

I think Bluegrass music is a style. Hear the word BLUEGRASS and I know what to expect.

Bluegrass vs Newgrass vs Nograss. I belong to the Minnesota Bluegrass and Old Time Music Association and this discussion comes up at festivals occasionally. I think most people there are pretty much up for anything that sounds grassy, but I ran across a few in the bar a couple years ago who were boycotting the Saturday evening headliners, Mile Twelve, because they were not up to their standard of Bluegrass. I thought Mile Twelve was great and they played enough of the old standards to show that they knew Bluegrass.

But if Bluegrass Junction is the arbitrator of what Bluegrass is today, Jaelee Robert's Stuck In The Middle With You opens the door to anything. And Jaelee Roberts is born and raised on Bluegrass, so I'm just saying that Bluegrass is evolving and some people get stuck in the past, just like everything.

There are not actually ""Bluegrass Songs" there are bluegrass performances. Sure there is a repertoire of bluegrass standards but many of these were originally country, pop, jazz, fiddle tunes, blues, etc.

A bluegrass performance, according to Bill Monroe, "uses Guitar, Banjo, Bass, Mandolin , and Fiddle". I read that in a Frets Magazine interview to the best of my recollection, the one with Bill on the cover likely.

I also listened to an online interview with Earl Scruggs, who said essentially the same thing, adding that it can be any type of song.
I don't think anyone had a bigger hand inventing Bluegrass than those 2 men. I'll accept their definition.

If someone at a jam tells you that something isn't a bluegrass song, just tell them it is now, we just played it that way.

Hello,

Bill Monroe was asked if Elvis singing his Blue Moon of Kentucky Elvis’s way was bothering him. He opined that his song sales were increasing his. He was happy to have the free publicity. Besides he borrowed the song from someone else.

The copyright act allowed for specific instruments for a song to be copyrighted. Elvis’s song was amplified. Bill’s song was acoustic.

Folk Music is big enough to include Bluegrass. The Punch Brothers were invited to play at a Folk Music Invitation. The acts before PB were eclectic. Everyone attempting to not cross the copyrighted song’s criteria made music uninteresting.

The PB songs were all non Bluegrass standards and their music. With their line up, they are Bluegrass by definition of instrumentation selection.

But, The Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald borrow was expertly done. I enjoy their presentations and antics.

My guess is that the critical element here is that it's in context of what gets played at a jam.

The jam I go to, almost always at least one Grateful Dead song comes up, which we usually bluegrassify. And then sometimes someone will bust something out that just... isn't bluegrass. I do my best to three-finger my way through it, but sometimes I'm just strumming. It's usually only one or two songs and I think we all like to stretch our skills a little.

Although I've also heard that any bluegrass jam is in danger or converting to a slow jam or a Grateful Dead jam. Perhaps your friend was just hoping to keep it from going that route? "Hey, let's play some Counting Crows!" "Let's do a Beatles song!"

But as soon as a bluegrass band records, it's fair game! Thanks, Greensky!

"Fox on The Run" is a Manfred Mann rock-and-roll tune absorbed into Bluegrass, now it's a part of most Bluegrass repertoire. Is it Bluegrass now?

What about all the Gordon Lightfoot, Kris Kristofferson etc etc tunes that Tony Rice absorbed, bluegrassified,and now are part of the Bluegrass repertoire?

Bluegrass? Or not? I could care less. A great tune is a great tune, bluegrass instrumentation just makes 'em better, more accessible, IMHO.

Defining what Bluegrass is certainly difficult, but it’s a label that obviously carries some appeal or street credibility for some. Try doing a search on musician sites like Bandmix, etc where you can choose a genre filter, and it’s amazing how many bands and musicians filter through describing themselves as bluegrass (often alongside tags like blues, classic rock, etc). OK, bluegrass doesn’t have to be strictly acoustic, or including specific instruments like the banjo, these days, but I can’t imagine some of these classic electric guitars, bass, keyboards and drums line-ups have ever heard let alone played any bluegrass, so why do they sell themselves as including bluegrass? I suspect they think it’s just another strain of blues (which I suppose it is in a way - a fusion of folk, country, jazz, Western swing, country blues and old timey string band dance music).

With apologies to anyone taking offense, I heard the following characterization of various traditional music genre attitudes: Cajun - let's play; Old Time - let's play together; Bluegrass - watch me play; Irish - you're not playing that right.

Jazz - you play one tune whilst I play another one at the same time
Blues - let’s play the same tune again, whilst I just alter the words
Rock - forget tunes, here’s another pentatonic minor riff

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Originally posted by Fathand

There are not actually ""Bluegrass Songs" there are bluegrass performances. Sure there is a repertoire of bluegrass standards but many of these were originally country, pop, jazz, fiddle tunes, blues, etc.

A bluegrass performance, according to Bill Monroe, "uses Guitar, Banjo, Bass, Mandolin , and Fiddle". I read that in a Frets Magazine interview to the best of my recollection, the one with Bill on the cover likely.

I also listened to an online interview with Earl Scruggs, who said essentially the same thing, adding that it can be any type of song.
I don't think anyone had a bigger hand inventing Bluegrass than those 2 men. I'll accept their definition.

If someone at a jam tells you that something isn't a bluegrass song, just tell them it is now, we just played it that way.

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I agree, but just from a different angle. There are bluegrass songs, a couple of ukulele players I know have a whole book of bluegrass songs. They are quite proud to be bluegrass ukulele players, but really they are just playing and singing bluegrass songs, there is nothing bluegrass about it. 

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Originally posted by BG Banjo

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Originally posted by Fathand

There are not actually ""Bluegrass Songs" there are bluegrass performances. Sure there is a repertoire of bluegrass standards but many of these were originally country, pop, jazz, fiddle tunes, blues, etc.

A bluegrass performance, according to Bill Monroe, "uses Guitar, Banjo, Bass, Mandolin , and Fiddle". I read that in a Frets Magazine interview to the best of my recollection, the one with Bill on the cover likely.

I also listened to an online interview with Earl Scruggs, who said essentially the same thing, adding that it can be any type of song.
I don't think anyone had a bigger hand inventing Bluegrass than those 2 men. I'll accept their definition.

If someone at a jam tells you that something isn't a bluegrass song, just tell them it is now, we just played it that way.

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I agree, but just from a different angle. There are bluegrass songs, a couple of ukulele players I know have a whole book of bluegrass songs. They are quite proud to be bluegrass ukulele players, but really they are just playing and singing bluegrass songs, there is nothing bluegrass about it. 

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I was once at a bluegrass jam at a festival. A group of 3 ukulele players came along and set up their music stands/books to join in, starting with Rabbit in a Log. Within 2 songs all of the original players had left.

I enjoy playing ukulele from time to time and have used it to practice my singing and even belonged to a uke club for a time.. The songs may be part of the repertoire of bluegrass standards but cease being bluegrass when not performed by some semblance of a bluegrass band.

If a jazz band performs Blueridge Cabin Home it becomes a jazz song. If a Bluegrass band performs World is Waiting for a Sunrise it becomes a bluegrass song. Most genres of music are defined by the performance.

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Originally posted by phb

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Originally posted by banjonz

 

Bluegrass didn't start with a banjo. Bill Monroe called it country music. I believe Dave akerman was their first banjo player (clawhammer) but I could be wrong. Earl joined Bill's band when he was 21; this was in 1945.

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The band existed already but many say that the genre named after the band was created when Earl Scruggs joined the Blue Grass Boys in December 1945. Pete Wernick pointed out that, while Bill Monroe had had a banjo player occasionally before Earl Scruggs joined the band, he never went without one after Earl Scruggs left the band.

 

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I'd also point out that no one was copying Monroe's band sound before Earl joined the Blue Grass Boys. After Earl joined, EVERYONE was copying that sound.

(BTW, although Stringbean did play clawhammer as a solo performer, he played two-finger on all the recordings he made with Monroe, IIRC.)

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Originally posted by stanleytone

Did Bill Monroe ever give an answer to that question?Ralph Stanley called his "Old time mountain style" bluegrass

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I think Bill Monroe describing his sound as a "high lonesome sound" speaks volumes. 

And perhaps even more cryptically: We know it when we hear it.

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Originally posted by Aradobanjo

Hello,

Bill Monroe was asked if Elvis singing his Blue Moon of Kentucky Elvis’s way was bothering him. He opined that his song sales were increasing his. He was happy to have the free publicity. Besides he borrowed the song from someone else.

The copyright act allowed for specific instruments for a song to be copyrighted. Elvis’s song was amplified. Bill’s song was acoustic.

Folk Music is big enough to include Bluegrass. The Punch Brothers were invited to play at a Folk Music Invitation. The acts before PB were eclectic. Everyone attempting to not cross the copyrighted song’s criteria made music uninteresting.

The PB songs were all non Bluegrass standards and their music. With their line up, they are Bluegrass by definition of instrumentation selection.

But, The Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald borrow was expertly done. I enjoy their presentations and antics.

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This is a misunderstanding of copyright. No, the copyright act doesn't allow for any specification of specific instruments.

The songwriter's copyright, intellectual property rights, remains intact, make no difference to specific instrumentation; whether acoustic vs amplified electric; nor time signature, nor genre. Bill got powerful royalties on Elvis's cover version; same as all other covers.

FWIW, Bill's own 1954 version, which switches from 3/4 to uptempo 4/4;  has triple fiddles but no banjo. So I guess might fail to meet some sticklers definition of bluegrass, so possible would reject as not bluegrass?

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Originally posted by mike gregory

If the original band was called "Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys",
and if the original band had an accordion player,

then why not agree that any AUTHENTIC Bluegrass band must ALSO have an accordion player?

(I didn't photoshop her in. That's Wilene "Sally Ann" Forrester.)

Here's more info:

https://accordionamericana.com/2015/12/01/wilene-sally-ann-forrester-accordionist-first-woman-musician-in-bluegrass/

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The term Bluegrass music came after Scruggs had joined Monroe and his Bluegrass Boys. That was the sound that pulled everything together and had people clamoring for and shouting from the crowd for more of that "Bluegrass Music".  The dj's and the industry followed the lead of the people and differentiated it from regular country music. That did not happen when Monroe had a clawhammer banjo player or when he had an accordion. It only happened when the 3 finger banjo completed the ensemble.  Hence, no accodian player.

ken

I think it's important to recognize that the music played by Monroe's band in the middle Forties when Flatt and Scruggs were band members, was not then referred to as "Bluegrass". It would have been referred to as "Hillbilly" music. The term "Hillbilly" was then supplanted by "Country & Western", and eventually just "Country".

The identification of the music as a unique genre didn't happen until considerably later. It was the people associated with the Folk Revival of the late Fifties and early Sixties who decided that the music played by Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, The Stanley Brothers and others was a musical genre separate and distinct from Country music. They also decided that the music needed a name, so they chose "Bluegrass".

Bluegrass is a genre of music that evolved out of Old-Time.

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Originally posted by matchbookholder

Bluegrass is a genre of music that evolved out of Old-Time.

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It's sort of a collision between Old Time and Jazz. That is, country boys heard that new-fangled jazzy music on their radios (which were a brand new thing on their own) and applied it to the traditional music they knew. They made it swing. That swing, I feel, is a defining characteristic of Blue Grass.

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
I'd also point out that no one was copying Monroe's band sound before Earl joined the Blue Grass Boys. After Earl joined, EVERYONE was copying that sound.

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Exactly!

Even with and after the Flatt and Scruggs version of the Bluegrass Boys, what Monroe was doing was one band's act, not a genre.

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Originally posted by Fathand

If a jazz band performs Blueridge Cabin Home it becomes a jazz song. If a Bluegrass band performs World is Waiting for a Sunrise it becomes a bluegrass song. Most genres of music are defined by the performance.

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Right. Earl Scruggs did not compose the bluegrass instrumental Bugle Call Rag. He created a bluegrass banjo arrangement of clarinet player Benny Goodman's swing band composition.

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Originally posted by matchbookholder

Bluegrass is a genre of music that evolved out of Old-Time.

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It's my understanding "bluegrass" as a name was applied to the genre in the 1950s or 60s by a magazine writer, who named the music after Bill Monroe's band, the Blue Grass Boys.

That band's repertoire -- which is what people started copying after the Flatt and Scruggs lineup of Blue Grass Boys created such excitement in 1945 -- was a combination of traditional (unauthored) old-time, mountain, and folk music; current composed country, and popular music; and Monroe's original compositions all delivered in the style of his band.

As other acts -- Stanley Brothers, Jimmy Martin (former Blue Grass Boy), Osborne Brothers -- soon followed with their own mixes of old, new and original songs performed on the same instrumentation, what they were doing became a recognizable type of country music. So I don't think bluegrass evolved out of anything than people copying of Bill Monroe's act. Monroe hated that people were copying him.

From Bluegrass – A History by Neil V. Rosenberg. Generally considered to be the best work on the history of bluegrass music

- From Journal of American Folklore 1967. “that bluegrass became a “style” (Rosenberg preferred the term genre) in 1947-48 when bands like the Stanley Brothers began copying Monroe’s sound. P. 11
- Regarding the genesis of the word “bluegrass” . It was first used in print in Ralph Rinzler’s notes to American Banjo Scruggs Style. P 11.
- “I have also learned that the word was first used by fans and followers of the music” p.11
- * “A recently discovered radio broadcast transcription made by the Stanley Brothers at WCYB in the spring of 1949 carries the words of Carter Stanley as he introduced Bobby Sumner as a “bluegrass fiddler from way down in old Kentucky”. P 89
- Everett Lilly who played with Flatt and Scruggs from 50-52 tells this story: “I do recall people saying this to us, they would ask Lester and Earl to do a Bill Monroe tune. Lester and Earl did not want to hear that name, or at least I don’t believe they did, and I believe the public could feel that. The public began to say, “Boys, would you please d one of them old Blue Grass tunes like you used to do?” they knew me and Lester could sing them duets like him and Bill. They’d say “would you please do an old bluegrass tune?”…the public named bluegrass music…through the fear to speak Bill’s name to ‘em.” P 102

Ken

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Originally posted by matchbookholder

Bluegrass is a genre of music that evolved out of Old-Time.

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Also evolved from Blues, Jazz, Pop, Country

In addition to accordion, Monroe also recorded a few sessions with organ accompaniment.