If you can hum Happy Birthday then "I am definitely musically stunted" is a totally bogus and definitely wrong! Do ease up on your methods of studying. Music involves fun, pleasure and creativity. You don't need a masters degree for each note that you try to play.

Allow yourself to agree to, and accept the above and you'll be playing music before you realize it.

The main job of playing a tune/song is to render the melody. How you want to dress it up determines if it's for enjoyment or for making a living at it. Keep in mind that the standard bum dit-ty means melody + fill-in + fill-in sounds and if the fill-ins don't fit then replace it with another melody note. Whatever the name of the letter, or its number of that note is, WHO CARES as long as it reflects the sound/tone you need.

Start with songs the your brain already knows: Old MacDonald, Happy Birthday, the Macarena etc. This way your brain can help you in the process instead of getting lost and confused.

Playing music and playing banjo is all about having fun. Do allow yourself to go have some already!

Here's another idea for you to try. See if you can pick out a tune on the banjo that you don't have the music for. If you know the melody for "Grandfather's Clock," that is not difficult to find in G tuning. (GDGBD)
Once you find it, I think you'll be able to play it from memory without too much trouble. Not fast, but you'll know what note comes next.
My banjo teacher never used music. It was all "by ear."

I'm a bit reluctant to post [and re-post] lest guys think I'm asking for direction to some particular method/teacher/program or other [high likelihood that I've already tried it] , but ....... 

I can understand John's predicament [if not his goals and practice regimen, but to each his/her own].  The only thing that makes me think that "figuring out melody notes" is even possible is the number/proportion of guys that advocate it.  Fwiw, I can only manage the first few notes of things like Happy Birthday / Jingle Bells / Twinkle Twinkle /etc.] ... at which point whatever process was in play no longer works ... i.e. nada/zippo/zilch.

So when MaineJohn says "that is not difficult to find" I agree.  For some it's not difficult at all .... so far it's impossible.

Surely "everybody" wouldn't pull my leg!!  ... or would they??  

Thanks all! I don’t have what one would call “musical creativity”. I tend to play things exactly as they are in tab or teyigg by to play them exactly as others play them. It’s just sort of how I work. I have found I enjoy learning to play and practice but I just don’t enjoy music very much. The idea of learning music theory and why music sounds the way it does is fascinating to me. I’ve just never been a person to be drawn to music and certainly not a musical style or a history of music. I do love to practice the banjo especially repeat patterns and change tuning and find chords. I probably should have learned piano as I’ve read and looked at it but piano is just not portable for hiking and camping and I’ve put a sunk cost into banjo and I do enjoy playing it. I just don’t think I’ll ever be “good” at playing it but that’s completely ok to me as I’m good at other things and not good at many many other things. I don’t enjoy singing, definitely don’t want to play with others and just find listening to music to not be something I enjoy even though it is an art form. I also don’t enjoy interpretive dance. I think for now I’m just going to keep practicing the songs I’ve worked on and try to get them down without mistakes. I have found I can memorize many things very easily: math derivations and equations, chemistry details, biochem, languages, and lists but I have to physically and deeply concentrate on each individual note and string and fret one at a time in a song as though I’m reading a book one letter at a time. I just don’t hear the patterns.

One thing that’s very confusing to me is the fact that the 1-4-5 never seems to play those chords. It’s like the songs play one note from the chord without actually playing the chord. I never know what note to accentuate and it seems so many notes are filler.

If I go in a program online and have a song played on piano with the chords I can hear them in a given key but in the banjo clawhammer it’s like part of the chord is played or not then three or filler notes are played not using the chord or any chord. I try to play the songs in many different ways “accentuate every third note” or “every other note” but the timing goes all over the place for me. It’s probably my lack of familiarity with the songs in general.

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Originally posted by Bart Veerman

If you can hum Happy Birthday then "I am definitely musically stunted" is a totally bogus and definitely wrong! 

I do agree with this.   But when I listen to the brainjo tests where he plays two different versions of the same song I go through it all and the response every time is "are you sure you're really listening because your score was no better than random chance"

I approached Josh with this and he suggested that banjo may not be the best instrument for me.   I shifted to a different teacher and I'm learning.

yall must understand when I say I didn't care or listen to music, I spent all of junior high and high school and college in labs and doing only science.  I considered music to be a complete waste of time I could be spending reading.  I went to one local concert in high school and found it too loud and left.   No collections of tapes, no shared discussions of music with friends, no bands, I just don't enjoy it.  In grad school during driving I listed to recorded lectures of math and physics.  I can listen to music but it's not something I enjoy.

my real goal for banjo is to learn a bit of music and chord theory and be able to play the instrument by the campfire when my wife and I go to national parks.   I'm not even playing for her, she kind of makes fun of this whole project but I really enjoy the practice.

Jsinjin: "One thing that’s very confusing to me is the fact that the 1-4-5 never seems to play those chords. It’s like the songs play one note from the chord without actually playing the chord. I never know what note to accentuate and it seems so many notes are filler."

I expect that few are less qualified than I am, but some of my v-e-r-y limited understanding comes from trying to compare lead and rhythm guitar.  This website https://www.guitarchalk.com/lead-vs-rhythm/ says among other things that, "When comparing lead vs rhythm guitar, an easy way to think of it is that rhythm players are primarily focused on chords while lead guitarists are focused on riffs and solos."   

I'm probably wrong on several counts, but to me the "play those chords" part is rolling over chords [i.e. the 1-4-5 you mention ^^.]   To my mind "real" [banjo] picking/playing is almost (?) a separate skill.  I suppose the conventional advice about learning to play "backup" because that's what occupies most of a banjo player's time is connected to that.

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Originally posted by Owen

So when MaineJohn says "that is not difficult to find" I agree.  For some it's not difficult at all .... so far it's impossible

 

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Not really on topic, but some years ago I was explaining the use and functions of a new database we were introducing, and used to often say 'it's not difficult' more, I thought, to reassure them they would get the hang of it soon.

 I was pinned down one day by a couple of people who explained that when I said that, and they found the database difficult, it made them feel frustrated and a little demoralised. I quickly changed my approach and have since been careful not to lapse back into it.

After having read through a lot of your repetitive posts, I'm beginning to believe that your motivation for learning the banjo is novelty, albeit some nuance of challenge.

From my perspective, here are some challenges that you will continue to have:

1. Music is not easy to learn, particularly in adult years.
2. The banjo is one of the more difficult stringed instruments to learn. With a guitar, for example, you can get get away with just strumming basic chords to a tune.
3. If you don't hear music in your head or know the tune that you're trying to learn, it's exponentially more difficult. Many others have reminded you of this.

My sage advice is to keep plugging away and don't compare yourself to others' learning paths . Just because you're describing yourself as extremely intelligent with maths and science doesn't mean you're ahead of or behind the pack. Your experience with the banjo so far sounds a lot like that of others. You're not any different.

It takes about 5 years for a new musician to become even comfortable with a banjo, let alone competent.

Most of this comes from my own experience.

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My sage advice is to keep plugging away and don't compare yourself to others' learning paths . Just because you're describing yourself as extremely intelligent with maths and science doesn't mean you're ahead of or behind the pack. Your experience with the banjo so far sounds a lot like that of others. You're not any different.

It takes about 5 years for a new musician to become even comfortable with a banjo, let alone competent.

Most of this comes from my own experience.

Thanks!   I'll keep plugging away.   I rarely compare myself to others.   
 

and one thing I've learned through my life is that the farther along I've gotten in math(s) and science, the absolute less intelligent I feel compared to others in my field.   I am a mid level professor at a tier 2 research university studying a side field.   But I have spent 30 plus years in the field of education and I love to learn things I enjoy.

its a push pull: I really want to learn music theory and physics but do that through an instrument I can play causally by myself by the campfire.   The only reason I picked banjo is that the strings were much easier to push down in the store to hit the frets compared to the guitars.   Also there was one fewer strings and the instrument seemed smaller and easier to pack.

John: "The only reason I picked banjo is that the strings were much easier to push down in the store to hit the frets compared to the guitars."

Well, John, today's yer lucky day: https://www.ez-fret.com/    Easy*, peasy!!

I noticed that so far nobody has picked up on my feeble explanation ^^ re. 1-4-5 lead/rhythm guitar analogy, etc.   Does it make sense?    ..... to anybody??  [I assume the stuff I put about rolls applies to BG but not to clawhammer, so you can make an allowance for me being asleep at the switch.]

* - well for some.   

[There was a fairly accomplished guitar player up on one of the remote reserves we worked on.  For Christmas one year I gave him a toy (?) version of the EZ-fret.  He accepted it in the spirit in which it was given. ]

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Originally posted by Owen

John: "The only reason I picked banjo is that the strings were much easier to push down in the store to hit the frets compared to the guitars."

Well, John, today's yer lucky day: https://www.ez-fret.com/    Easy*, peasy!!

I noticed that so far nobody has picked up on my feeble explanation ^^ re. 1-4-5 lead/rhythm guitar analogy, etc.   Does it make sense?    ..... to anybody??  [I assume the stuff I put about rolls applies to BG but not to clawhammer, so you can make an allowance for me being asleep at the switch.]

* - well for some.   

[There was a fairly accomplished guitar player up on one of the remote reserves we worked on.  For Christmas one year I gave him a toy (?) version of the EZ-fret.  He accepted it in the spirit in which it was given. ]

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Ha. That would be a good gag gift for guitar snobs.   
 

 Don't know enough about lead guitar vs backup but it's probably true.

i became THAT caricature in the store that day.   I bought an instrument with no knowledge of the way it was played and no experience in playing it.  I was the jerk who buys a way too expensive for their skill level instrument and then just starts online beginner forum stuff.

I one did a beginner triathlon in my local city.  I have a bike but it's a 1980s era mountain bike weighing about 20 lbs.   a local bike shop rented slightly better multi speed road bikes and I decided for the event to rent one as a borrowed one really was faster and smoother than a mountain bike with the skinnier tires and different gears and lighter weight.   They were changing out the pedals on the rental for me as I did not have those step in shoes.  While I waited this guy who was about 6'5" and maybe 270 lbs was having a custom titanium bike with all the trimmings fitted for him.   He was really trying to decide between the aluminum water bottle holder and the titanium one which were a few grams difference but several hundred dollars.  I couldn't help thinking this guy was more than 100 lbs bigger than lance armstrong and there was no way the few grams was going to improve or take away from his cycling.  I never did hear what his decision was but I felt the same way about my instrument choice.  I like to think that guy is out cycling hundreds of miles a day tucked in like a Tour de France rider happy with his bike.   
 

I don't go into many hobbies but at the beginning of this year I wrote that I wanted to learn music theory and choose an instrument that would let me play around the campfire.  I realize now that playing music and music theory are slightly disconnected in the folk instrument area but I'm working myself to bring that together.  I also realize that most banjo is learned for the joy of playing with others through hearing and picking up what others play which is also something I have to work through myself.   I think as I approach the final month of this year that I managed to get an instrument, teach myself the chords on memory of multiple tunings, teach myself how chords, strings, tuning, frets and the basic instrument works.   Then I taught myself how to hit each string on the percussive downstroke of clawhammer, how to land my thumb on the fifth string and play it, how to hammer on and pull off, and how to change chords.  I also sort of learned  how to play at 40-60 bpm one or two songs without mistakes if I practice them over and over for a little while before playing them and really concentrate.   
 

I still play very mechanically and in the spirit of this original post, I could never at this point be able to play one song then switch to another because I can't remember what I'm playing note by note but when I look back I have come quite a way since I brought the banjo.

whether or not it's the right way to learn to play I still don't want to play with others as that one time was such an unmitigated horror disaster I'll never try again.   But I do appreciate the advice and suggestions.

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Originally posted by jsinjin

I don't go into many hobbies but at the beginning of this year I wrote that I wanted to learn music theory and choose an instrument that would let me play around the campfire.  I realize now that playing music and music theory are slightly disconnected in the folk instrument area but I'm working myself to bring that together. 

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Theory for 3 or 4 chord songs might be what you need. Here's the "periodic table of music" and the thread that explains it.

https://www.banjohangout.org/archive/279248

John, I think I might have stumbled onto some compelling stuff to illustrate the differences between/among 1-4-5, chords, melody, picking, etc., etc.   

From the song There's Better Times A'coming .....

So pick away on the old banjo; keep those guitars strumming.

Put more water in the soup, there's better times a'comin'. "

i.e. real banjo = picking, but you can get by with strumming a guitar.  

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Originally posted by jsinjin

quote:

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>>> #1 <<< "my real goal for banjo is to learn a bit of music and chord theory"

>>> #2 <<< "be able to play the instrument by the campfire"

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Nothing wrong with those choices as they simply are YOUR choices. The problem though: #1 relies on the left hemisphere of the brain while #2 requires your right hemisphere and, according to your comments, you're not welcoming your RH to the party. Still nothing wrong as it's YOUR PARTY. Practically speaking though, no problem either way but do realize that learning to actually play even a simple song on the banjo will take very very very much longer when the brain's RH is not a welcome "guest."

Good luck though!

I dunno, Bart.   I can't speak for jsinjin, but I figure there's l-o-t-s of scope for variance within the conventional right brain / left brain thinking [which may not be as cut-and-dried as is typically portrayed], and then consider the "real" outliers and ..... ???   

But having said that, "according to your comments" does carry a fair bit of weight, IMNSHumbleO.

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Originally posted by jsinjin

...
Just curious how many months or years it typically takes to get to where you have a couple of songs memorized to be able to play them by yourself.

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Getting back to your original question, I don't think there is a typical time period to learn a repertory of tunes & songs.  People learn in very different ways and pick up things faster and slower than others.

In my own experience, I've been playing clawhammer banjo for about 5 years and my own repertoire is rather small compared to others who have been playing an equivalent amount of time.  I spent my first two years just chording and singing to songs.  I wasn't new to stringed instruments and already understood music theory so I wasn't starting from scratch.  Then I spent the next three years learning skills such as drop- and double thumbing, slides, hammers, phrasings, doing most of it through repetitive practice exercises.  I'm at the point of finally being able to absorb the tunes because my fingers are pretty comfortable on the fret board and have practices a lot of combinations.  Personally, I prefer to know only a few songs and tunes but strive to play them well.  I need a lot of repetition to get the phrasings straight in my head and then to work out common errors, etc.  When I have many tunes in the learning rotation, my muscle memory gets diluted.  The consequence to this, though, is jamming with others is a challenge because I just can't keep up with all the tunes, and the speeds the groups play in, etc.  I don't fret it because it's nice to be exposed to others from time to time.   (did you like my pun there?)

That said, once you get to know more and more tunes - at least in the old time style - the more and more you encounter very similar phrasings so memorization comes a little easier over time.

Based on how you describe your non-musical background and particular goals and interests, I can offer you the following to consider:

- keep up with the practice exercises (I love these).  Get a digital metronome and do at least xx minutes of your practice routine with one.  A couple times a week, speed up the metronome to an uncomfortable pace where you can barely keep up.

- don't worry about learning a multitude of tunes.  If you're working with a teacher, he/she should be able to judge how many you can handle at once.  I suggest rotate through 3 tunes.  Once you start learning new banjo motifs, find a new tune that has some of them present and add it to your rotation.

- immerse yourself in banjo music.  When you're doing chores, play it in the background on a speaker constantly.  Don't listen actively.  When you hear a tune that strikes your fancy, write it down on a list to eventually learn.  Then listen to the same tune recorded by other banjo players.  For now, stick with recordings of solo banjoists, so you won't have to listen actively through the fiddle and other instruments.  Dwight Diller's "Jericho Road" album is a good one I have on repeat often.  Most of the common streaming services have a lot of clawhammer artists in their libraries.

That's all I got for now.  It sounds like you're on a good path.  Don't despair and keep up the practice.

 

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Originally posted by jsinjin

Ok good! This makes me feel better. I find that I don’t “like” a lot of bluegrass or Appalachian or other music. I love classical if I have to choose something and I recognize most of the classical stuff. I was really impressed by that song called “lost Gander” but it’s pretty up there in terms of skill.

I’m just glad this is all normal. No kids at home though. Wife and I are empty nesters but I bought a membership at strum machine at my teacher’s recommendation. It works pretty well for backup.

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Here is one of the most beautiful reditions of "Lost Gander" by Lukas Pool. Listen to the meadowlarks chime in from about the middle to the end. Just close your eyes and enjoy, it is a work of art. https://youtu.be/1J9IsNN1l70

I suppose this might be onto a tangent, but in Bart's thread about learning clawhammer/3-finger, Bill posted this https://www.banjohangout.org/myhangout/media-player/audio_player2.asp?musicid=18105&archived= 

Before I listened to it, I read where Bill said breaks #1 and #3 are clawhammer and break #2 is 3-finger.   So far I've listened to it twice, and I don't hear the difference/changes.     However, I figure I might be able to "eventually" hear it IF I had somebody point it out to me as it's happening.

[Again, fwiw, I'm not asking for advice, just reiterating my observations/experience .... that the spectrum is pretty wide, and typically the advice that's given is pretty narrow, IMNSHumbleO.]

.... more compelling (?) evidence that Facebook and BHO are somehow linked .... this popped up on my Facebook feed just now:

That's the use of Ad Tech data. It isn't the BHO, or at least doesn't necessarily rely on the BHO's collusion. Nothing is private on the WWW.

Oops- my sincere apologies for so cheerfully suggesting "it's not that difficult." It *is* difficult for you, and I shouldn't have minimized that. I'm probably also forgetting how difficult it was for me when I was just starting out.
Can I say that after you've been playing for 63 years,. I hope you will have forgotten how difficult it was getting started too!

Thanks, Geezer, but i figure it's difficulter than difficult. i.e. difficult > difficulter > difficultest.    

I've long wondered about savants and have done a bit of reading lately.  Maybe savants and guys like me are on the same spectrum, musically speaking, but approaching opposite ends??

And I offer an apology to you; by not paying attention I got you and Mainejohn mixed up.

Trusting/hoping I'm spared from dementia, I don't expect to live long enough to forget my banjo beginnings; to this point it's 13ish years.   Anyhoo, kudos on 63 years.

While reading this thread I was drawn to some of what was being felt by John. I have always been gifted musically and found it easy to play almost anything in a short time frame . I think it was because my mother took me to music recitals at a very young age . However the things John is describing , I have experienced myself with math , reading comprehension , and music theory of all things . I struggled with music theory for years not quite understanding how chord structure and different notes have different feelings . I am just now starting to understand at age 72 how it all fits together but just barily , I think it’s the way our individual brains are wired and not anything else . For John music is hard to digest , Chemsetry for most people is the most difficult to understand Is easy and he finds easy. In a way chemistry is John’s music