I picked up an old banjo at a Goodwill that I found out was a Kay from the 50s we think. I found that the neck has a slight bow going the wrong way at about the third-fouth fret. I’ve read that you can straighten the bow with a heat lamp on the spot for several hours to loosen up the glue to shift the fret board while under pressure with clamps bending it the other way.
I’m new to banjos and I can change strings and a head or two, but is this do able? It cost me like $40 and know that in about a year I’ll be buying a higher quality banjo.
If it is a back bow, then putting strings on the banjo and tuning it up will pull the neck straight. We need more information.
The area of the 3 and 4th fret are higher than the 1-2 and the rest of the fret board, so there’s a buzz on the strings and the space between the 22 fret and strings is about 1/2 in and the 5th fret is 1/32. And that is with strings on it tuned. I’ve adjusted the tension rod and tried to make the action lower at the last fret but the the strings hit the 2nd and 3rd frets. Putting a straight edge on the fret board rocks at that point as well. Not much but enough that adjusting the action doesn’t produce an even string height over the whole fret board.
Edited by - rifflewader on 11/01/2024 17:13:40
Frets 3-4 is kind of a "strange" place for back bow.....usually you find back bow down between 8-16 frets.
If you're fairly "handy" and have the right tools, you could pull frets 1-5, sand or plane the fretboard down level, re-cut the fret slots and put the frets back in.
I think a "heat press" method (as you described) would be difficult up around 3-4 frets, with no guarantee that the problem won't return
quote:
Originally posted by RioStatFrets 3-4 is kind of a "strange" place for back bow.....usually you find back bow down between 8-16 frets.
If you're fairly "handy" and have the right tools, you could pull frets 1-5, sand or plane the fretboard down level, re-cut the fret slots and put the frets back in.
I think a "heat press" method (as you described) would be difficult up around 3-4 frets, with no guarantee that the problem won't return
Thanks Scott. I was afraid of that. I talked with an old timer Luthier who suggested the heat method as a "cheap" try to fix. He did say it's not guaranteed and we might need to refret it if the heat didn't work.
quote:
Originally posted by rifflewaderquote:
Originally posted by RioStatFrets 3-4 is kind of a "strange" place for back bow.....usually you find back bow down between 8-16 frets.
If you're fairly "handy" and have the right tools, you could pull frets 1-5, sand or plane the fretboard down level, re-cut the fret slots and put the frets back in.
I think a "heat press" method (as you described) would be difficult up around 3-4 frets, with no guarantee that the problem won't returnThanks Scott. I was afraid of that. I talked with an old timer Luthier who suggested the heat method as a "cheap" try to fix. He did say it's not guaranteed and we might need to refret it if the heat didn't work.
Does "rifflewader" refer to fishing downstream to shallow rapids in mountain streams ?
quote:
Originally posted by RioStatquote:
Originally posted by rifflewaderquote:
Originally posted by RioStatFrets 3-4 is kind of a "strange" place for back bow.....usually you find back bow down between 8-16 frets.
If you're fairly "handy" and have the right tools, you could pull frets 1-5, sand or plane the fretboard down level, re-cut the fret slots and put the frets back in.
I think a "heat press" method (as you described) would be difficult up around 3-4 frets, with no guarantee that the problem won't returnThanks Scott. I was afraid of that. I talked with an old timer Luthier who suggested the heat method as a "cheap" try to fix. He did say it's not guaranteed and we might need to refret it if the heat didn't work.
Does "rifflewader" refer to fishing downstream to shallow rapids in mountain streams ?
Yes! Not many people get it. When I can escape my wife and four kids I enjoy fly fishing and I've had that handle over twenty years now. Been awhile since I been in riffles though.
I grew up wading the rivers, streams and creeks of south-east and eastern West Virginia (Greenbrier, South Branch of Potomac, North Fork of the South Branch, etc...) fishing for smallmouth, "red eyes", and trout.
Since moving to NE Ohio, I've pulled 8 -10 lb walleye out of Lake Erie, but that ain't half as much fun as fighting a 1or 2 lb smally or trout out of a fast-moving mountain stream !
Edited by - RioStat on 11/02/2024 07:49:03
Sounds like you may just have high frets. Read about the tool "fret rocker" and test for high frets. They often can be hammered back into place.
First thing I'd suspect is that the 5th peg is jammed into the neck too hard and is pushing the fingerboard up.
quote:
Originally posted by RioStatI grew up wading the rivers, streams and creeks of south-east and eastern West Virginia (Greenbrier, South Branch of Potomac, North Fork of the South Branch, etc...) fishing for smallmouth, "red eyes", and trout.
Since moving to NE Ohio, I've pulled 8 -10 lb walleye out of Lake Erie, but that ain't half as much fun as fighting a 1or 2 lb smally or trout out of a fast-moving mountain stream !
Started fly fishing since moving to NC, grew up in New England. My in-laws live near Elkins Wv and my FIL showed me several trout streams up and through where he grew up in Upshur county. I went to Marshall but didn't get to see much fishing back then. Never saw a "red eye" till I was in my 30s in those small WV waters. They fight like a whale in a 4wt fly rod. Man they are so much fun.
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Originally posted by Dan GellertFirst thing I'd suspect is that the 5th peg is jammed into the neck too hard and is pushing the fingerboard up.
Thanks Dan. It was a replacement I found out so it def could be that. I'm looking for a Luthier near me I think to do the work. I'm afraid I'm still a little new to be replacing pegs and frets. I've only had it for about two weeks and it's already in fifty pieces on my bench.
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Originally posted by Banner BlueSounds like you may just have high frets. Read about the tool "fret rocker" and test for high frets. They often can be hammered back into place.
Thanks Rob. I'll read up. That would be great if it was as simple as that to get it playable.
I hate to be "that guy" but, frankly, if this level of banjo is not playable as is (with only the minimum amount of work that one could do themselves) than you should cut your loss and move on.
At $40, if you pay a "luthier" to do anything you have just exceeded, by a far margin, the total value (which is about the initial $40 you paid). The problem is that you could throw all the money and work at this you want and it will still be what it is-- the lowest level that could be made at the time it was built.
String it and if it is totally unplayable, even with the neck adjuster wedge, move on and get something better.
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Originally posted by Joel HooksI hate to be "that guy" but, frankly, if this level of banjo is not playable as is (with only the minimum amount of work that one could do themselves) than you should cut your loss and move on.
At $40, if you pay a "luthier" to do anything you have just exceeded, by a far margin, the total value (which is about the initial $40 you paid). The problem is that you could throw all the money and work at this you want and it will still be what it is-- the lowest level that could be made at the time it was built.
String it and if it is totally unplayable, even with the neck adjuster wedge, move on and get something better.
Joel, I appreciate your directness and honesty. That is where I think I am right now. The guy I talked to Fri was in the $40-$50 ball park to "gently" bend the neck. I didn't even get a quote on a "sand and refret". That would def be more than I'd want to put in it. I appreciate the history of the piece but had it been a Gibson or other high end Banjo I probably wouldn't hesitate. Being a Kay, I believe, it doesn't seem cost effective. I'm still on the low side, bought a replacement head, bridge, strings and top nut to get it where I am now. Plus my time taking it all apart, cleaning and cleaning it, and learning a bunch.
I have a heating rig made out of a wardrobe (you call it a closet) heater with a steel U bar attached over it. My approach would be to clamp the neck down (frets down) so it sits flat. I would heat it for a couple of hours then let it cool over night.
I would unclamp it then slight down the fretboard from the nut to see if there is any change. If not I would place some wood shim where it needs to bow back them repeat the clamping and heat treatment. If that doesn't work then a more drastic approach is needed.
I once had an old banjo that refused to give up its bow in spite of a number of heat/clamping treatments. I decided to heat the neck up and remove the fretboard. As I was working from the end of the neck, when I got to the 3rd fret wire when the fretboard broke at the point and sprung off. I found upon close inspection that the fret wire was installed through the fretboard ( it was thin) and was anchored into the wood beneath. This was the reason it wouldn't unbow.
quote:
Originally posted by banjonzI have a heating rig made out of a wardrobe (you call it a closet) heater with a steel U bar attached over it. My approach would be to clamp the neck down (frets down) so it sits flat. I would heat it for a couple of hours then let it cool over night.
I would unclamp it then slight down the fretboard from the nut to see if there is any change. If not I would place some wood shim where it needs to bow back them repeat the clamping and heat treatment. If that doesn't work then a more drastic approach is needed.
I once had an old banjo that refused to give up its bow in spite of a number of heat/clamping treatments. I decided to heat the neck up and remove the fretboard. As I was working from the end of the neck, when I got to the 3rd fret wire when the fretboard broke at the point and sprung off. I found upon close inspection that the fret wire was installed through the fretboard ( it was thin) and was anchored into the wood beneath. This was the reason it wouldn't unbow.
Thanks for the insight. What you did was exactly what the banjo guy I talked with last week. He said sometimes he'd have to heat and cool 4-5 times before the bow would come back.
Thanks for everybody's help! I ended up taking it all apart again, replaced the nut with a higher one, replaced the head, and the bridge. I also worked on the tension rod to free it up, brillo pad it to remove the rust. I put it all together and took my time and was able to adjust the neck to 1/8" at 22 and well off the 3rd fret. I think it all had to do with the old nut causing issues.
Now to practice........
