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Originally posted by steve davis

A good piece of tab can lead you through very difficult stuff right off the bat.
Internalizing the material and making it your own is the challenge.

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I used to get anxiety about the various schools of thought around tab vs learning to listen to music and play by ear vs jamming and all the theory etc.   

I accepted a number of things:

1) I'm a beginner and probably won't progress beyond that.

2) if I am terrible at playing by ear and don't like it then beating myself up about that isn't worth the effort especially if it's horrible feeling and depression inducing to me to randomly try.

3) I can learn songs from tablature and surprisingly they sound a lot like the songs are supposed to sound especially to someone who doesn't listen to much music anyway

4) banjo playing is something I should enjoy if I want to so if I enjoy taking "Lost Gander" from Tom Collin's lengthy pdf of tablature and practicing it for three years to get half hearted poor sounding version of it for myself that's totally ok.   
 

I teach as a professor at a college called TCU in Fort Worth.   In the college of science and engineering so not artistic in any way.   Every two years the Cliburn piano competition comes to town either in the form of the amateur one open to musicians not wanting to become professionals or on the other four year cycle, the one where gifted young pianists coming from all over the world come to play for one chance to tour for the rest of their life as a professional.   
 

both groups have practiced a lot.  I often act as a faculty host for the amateurs and find their reasons for playing to be fascinating.   All have other careers and all play and practice just because they enjoy complicated classical music.   It's a joy just to play.   
 

I believe there is a group of amateur, starting off banjo players who have no idea what the culture of banjo music is and what "good" or "great" would be like.   They just want to pick a few songs, play them and enjoy the tasks of practicing and learning.

i myself did the opposite of what some veteran banjo players recommend: I bought a very expensive multi thousand dollar instrument with no knowledge of the style of music, what it sounds like, how to practice or what to do.   Then with no desire to play in a group of be part of a culture I just started practicing.   I tried several of the online major teaching programs and one of the principals actually responded to a question saying that "banjo probably isn't for me".  But I did eventually get a good teacher whom I meet with weekly, we have Christmas songs I'm learning and I'm able to combine my love of music theory and learning to play the banjo.

if I had one lesson for the beginners out there it's to not get discouraged if you want to try lots of things outside of the way that many people learn to play banjo music in transitional ways.  It's harder to try different stuff that isn't part of normal culture but it's ok.

I grew up playing by ear at home with my steel playing Dad and piano playing Mom.
We played Country and Western mostly and I chorded a 5 string with a flat pick for the first 10 years.
I discovered tab in 1975 and that opened up Scruggs and melodic playing for me.
I'm glad I started with chording by ear.

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Originally posted by Souvenir1

quote: Eulalie, I think you are a very wise teacher to create a simplified version of more complicated tunes.  It was hearing fantastic clawhammer playing by professionals playing great tunes, that inspired me to start playing banjo.  Cluck old hen is not inspiring for me.  I'd rather struggle with a difficult tune until I get come up with an easier version I can play.  

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Originally posted by Eulalie

I put that composition degree to good use and with little trouble create a simplified version of more complicated tunes for beginning students. I then gradually introduce technical bits that slowly guide the player towards the more fleshed out version. It works, and it helps with students' self esteem.

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Thank you for your kind words, Souvenir.  I find that people learn more readily when they feel a sense of accomplishment, and I am more interested in fostering enjoyment in making music than teaching people how to show off.  Boiled-down versions of interesting tunes tend to inspire people to practice, which is the only route to improvement.

I got Jingle Bells when I had been playing not very long. It was a killer. Each year I trot it out and it is easier each year. Now I am not sure what all the fuss was about. Like driving a car. How do they all stay in the lane? Now try NOT staying in the lane.....

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Originally posted by Kookaburra

I got Jingle Bells when I had been playing not very long. It was a killer. Each year I trot it out and it is easier each year. Now I am not sure what all the fuss was about. Like driving a car. How do they all stay in the lane? Now try NOT staying in the lane.....

my banjo teacher taught me good king wencenlas.  I wanted to learn I saw three ships but the timing was beyond my capability.

Tim Soden I started to play banjo at 74 years young when my cognitive ability was on the wane and without any previous musical experience. I found learning to play an enjoyable but frustrating challenge and when I listened to tunes played by professionals and thought I can do that, instantly became a tad disappointed but persevered.
I am not hung up on precision or complexity as for me Banjo is about capturing the rhythm of the style, Jazz, Folk, Celtic, Blue Grass or anything else you want it to be, modern professionals are teaching us the only boundaries are in our heads not so much in the instrument.
Often the simplest tune is the most enjoyable especially in jamming sessions.
Progression with Geoff Howath or Tony Trischka does it for me.
Jim Pankey taught me early on that my mistakes are "Happy Accidents" ~ makes me laugh.
To learn Banjo "keep it simple stupid". Kind regards Tim

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Originally posted by Eulalie

quote:Well, I have to ask, do you do any online teaching?

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Originally posted by Souvenir1

quote: Eulalie, I think you are a very wise teacher to create a simplified version of more complicated tunes.  It was hearing fantastic clawhammer playing by professionals playing great tunes, that inspired me to start playing banjo.  Cluck old hen is not inspiring for me.  I'd rather struggle with a difficult tune until I get come up with an easier version I can play.  

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Originally posted by Eulalie

I put that composition degree to good use and with little trouble create a simplified version of more complicated tunes for beginning students. I then gradually introduce technical bits that slowly guide the player towards the more fleshed out version. It works, and it helps with students' self esteem.

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Thank you for your kind words, Souvenir.  I find that people learn more readily when they feel a sense of accomplishment, and I am more interested in fostering enjoyment in making music than teaching people how to show off.  Boiled-down versions of interesting tunes tend to inspire people to practice, which is the only route to improvement.

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Definitely! We all bought Earl's book, which was like most other books that have been printed, tabs of professional pickers playing the tunes that wowed their audiences.

I think there have been oodles of folks give up, frustrated because they were never able to play like Earl.

I not sure ^^.   I liken it to sports .... do guys give up because they can't match    (pick a sport/player)__ ?    Ditto for any "artistic" endeavour ... dance, painting, acting, sculpting, etc.??

Edit: ... Doing some more thinking. By "give up" do you mean pack 'er in or accept one's limitations?

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Originally posted by Owen

I not sure ^^.   I liken it to sports .... do guys give up because they can't match    (pick a sport/player)__ ?    Ditto for any "artistic" endeavour ... dance, painting, acting, sculpting, etc.??

Edit: ... Doing some more thinking. By "give up" do you mean pack 'er in or accept one's limitations?

 

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I think it's give up.   In some cases there is a joy found in learning and the long process of getting better at a craft, sport, activity etc.  people sometimes don't realize that the time to get better is always years.   There are the ones who find peace in simply the exercises and measuring their progress.   And there are those whose goals are to "be as good or better than (insert name)."   For the very very rare individual there is a combination of years practice and skill that actually lets them become as good as or better than (name).   For the remaining 99.9999... percent they must either shift their mindset or decide the activity isn't for them.   
 

the stress I had with banjo initially is that unlike so many other activities, the pedagogy of how to do it isn't structured with books and materials.   Even the online collections of activities as a program rely a huge amount on the intuition acquired from those things that aren't part of the YouTubeish videos and explanations and discussions.   
 

learning to code in R or Python for example can be done without ever interacting with another human, studying, testing, building and testing your outputs against known problems.   You can become a master without any unknown.

chess is similar with a set of clear chunks of learning and memory and online play.  The number of new grand master level players per year has been accelerating every year.

i regularly get undergraduate organic chemistry students in my department who went through all of organic 1 and 2 in high school on their own and are better prepared than grad students were in my early 90s era of graduate school all because the expectations of what it takes to get into medical school for those students today is extreme compared to two decades ago.

sports like basketball and golf have been revolutionized so that amateurs now do things that pros in the 80s could not do.  It was decades to reach the sub 4 minute mile and now every year the number of high school men tagging that metric increases by many over the year before.

even classical music such as piano has more and more people teaching themselves with formal pedagogy.

banjo is, I have to say, unique.   It has a formative dependency on playing with others and learning from others by exposure rather than rote or classical training more than almost anything I've ever seen.

its true that almost none of the things I listed above are at a "master level" but how many musicians actually are.   But for someone practicing piano, there are routes to playing complex classical pieces in fairly short time periods even from a fairly limited musical background.   
 

I think that the style, appreciation, culture and genre of music in banjo is something that was built and remains a version of an oral tradition of shared experience and getting better together that only exists in a few places.

certain types of black smithing, wood, leather and construction, sculpture, dance and certainly martial arts come to mind.

John: "I think it's give up.   <snip>  For the very very rare individual there is a combination of years practice and skill that actually lets them become as good as or better than (name).   For the remaining 99.9999... percent they must either shift their mindset or decide the activity isn't for them."   

When you say "give up" do you mean pack 'er in, or accept their limitations [or, if you prefer, change their mindset]?  For those two ^^ options, how would you split the 99.9999%?

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Originally posted by Dean T

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Originally posted by BG Banjo

This is an interesting thread for me. Last year around the holidays we started talking about a band. Our banjo player was long gone and somehow I got drafted to be the banjo player...
 

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This idea actually helped me a lot. I'm a fingerpicking guitar player and the idea of memorizing banjo chords and then just messing around with various tunes sounds awesome. I have done a lot of practice on the rolls already, so, that will help too.

 

Edit: whoops, sorry if this post was drifting... I actually had it mixed up with the other thread in "other banjo topics" about students having a hard time. Oh well, I'll leave it, maybe it will resonate with someone...

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Originally posted by jubal

quote:

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Originally posted by Dean T

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Originally posted by BG Banjo

This is an interesting thread for me. Last year around the holidays we started talking about a band. Our banjo player was long gone and somehow I got drafted to be the banjo player...
 

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This idea actually helped me a lot. I'm a fingerpicking guitar player and the idea of memorizing banjo chords and then just messing around with various tunes sounds awesome. I have done a lot of practice on the rolls already, so, that will help too.

 

Edit: whoops, sorry if this post was drifting... I actually had it mixed up with the other thread in "other banjo topics" about students having a hard time. Oh well, I'll leave it, maybe it will resonate with someone...

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This fits right in with the mention of "boiled down versions" of more complicated tunes. Early in my banjo career as a hack country gospel back up banjo player, I started getting interested in standard bluegrass tunes like FMB, Beverly hillbillies, and Fueding/dueling banjos, etc... mainly because folks see a banjo and just assume you can rip them out. I did what I do, and simply learned the chord progressions and picked as fast as I could. It didn't take long to find a few of the recognizable licks, and throw them in the right places, and it's quite amazing how boiled down you can make something fit into your playing level, and folks still recognize it. If I had to wait until I was ready to learn the note for note professional level versions... I would have given up a long time ago. I'm still not even close. But I can play a hack version at a party, and make folks smile and clap, and have a good time doing it. I'm a big fan of folks like Jim Pankey who post simplified versions of bluegrass tunes, on YouTube, to get folks going. 

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Originally posted by Owen

John: "I think it's give up.     For the very very rare individual there is a combination of years practice and skill that actually lets them become as good as or better than (name).   For the remaining 99.9999... percent they must either shift their mindset or decide the activity isn't for them."   

When you say "give up" do you mean pack 'er in, or accept their limitations [or, if you prefer, change their mindset]?  For those two ^^ options, how would you split the 99.9999%?

 

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I think without data that it's likely an 80:20.  Meaning of the 99+ percent of people who choose to become beginner banjo players, likely 80 percent of them stop because they either have aspirations that are unrealistic or because the amount of boring work required is too much for them to enjoy the learning.   Perhaos a small percentage of them don't enjoy playing in groups or want a much more structured type of music with a clear progression.

im only using the 80:20 rule because I don't have any other data.   This is just a percentage that fits so many things.

in relation to those who take on "too difficult" of pieces, that's entirely a subjective aspect of banjo music.   For many beginners it's likely that they just want to play a piece they like.   
 

I truly think it's ok to mess around with any level piece.  But I'm a beginner messing with advanced pieces so I'm biased.

Shameless plug #78 …. I have five easy arrangements for well known tunes on my YouTube channel and also here in the video library and tab library.
Will the Circle Be Unbroken (soikel in Brooklyn)
Good Night Irene (the old Lead Belly number)
Red River Valley (for you dude ranch frequenters)
Four Strong Winds (a kite flyer’s theme song)
Blue Ridge Cabin Home (for Scratt &Fluggs fans)

Try’em, you’ll like’em !

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Originally posted by ANDRA

Hah! Sounds similar to inexperienced horse riders and their big-price steeds, but the banjo doesn't suffer as much...
I am a fairly beginner player and play on my own for the joy of the unique sound. I do play basic stuff, but love tackling more ridiculously different tunes on my own (albeit painfully slowly) for the fascinating, unfolding progressions — the intense, total focus required with a complicated tab puts me into a similar, magical mind frame as when I used to ride young horses: You have to be wholly present as it can all go horribly wrong if your concentration slips...

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Hi ANDRA

You should check out this guy's lessons.

John, what I questioned was the "never be able to play like Earl" rationale for packing it in [from a banjo standpoint].  I suspect [i.e. is it possible that  you and I are getting our stats from the same source?] that that rationale ^^ only applies to a tiny fraction of those that do quit.    I suspect the b-i-g preponderance is because "life gets in the way."   And for some reliable "proof"  I just briefly discussed this matter with my wife .... neither of us know, or even know of, anybody that quit, either a vocation or a recreational pastime because they "... couldn't play like Earl"  ...  or like Bobby Orr / Itzak Perlman / Simone Biles / Andreas Sesterhenn / Irwin Corey / etc., etc., etc.

Chuck, re. plug #78,  the only one I've been practicing is WTCBU, but please know that it sure as hello isn't "easy."  

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Originally posted by Owen

John, what I questioned was the "never be able to play like Earl" rationale for packing it in [from a banjo standpoint].  I suspect [i.e. is it possible that  you and I are getting our stats from the same source?] that that rationale ^^ only applies to a tiny fraction of those that do quit.    I suspect the b-i-g preponderance is because "life gets in the way."   And for some reliable "proof"  I just briefly discussed this matter with my wife .... neither of us know, or even know of, anybody that quit, either a vocation or a recreational pastime because they "... couldn't play like Earl"  ...  or like Bobby Orr / Itzak Perlman / Simone Biles / Andreas Sesterhenn / Irwin Corey / etc., etc., etc.

Chuck, from your list, the only one I've been practicing is WTCBU, but please know that it sure as hello isn't "easy."  

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Probably!  Hence my 80:20 rule.  
 

I used to coach track and field for my kids.  I watched one or two grow to the apex of the Eiffel Tower of the sport in division 1 athletics.  A larger than expected portion of athletes and parents came to summer track programs imagining greatness as the reason for starting track and field.   Of those some gave up because they could see that getting to some Usain Bolt level was either not possible for them or would take too much work.  For a non insignificant number of the kids and parents hoping for greatness in 12 and under summer running, being beaten over and over by someone who was experienced from the time they were 8 was enough to say "this isn't for me".  That's sad but perhaps they found another passion somewhere else.

I never learned to play like Earl.That direction wasn't available in my early years.
I enjoy playing bluegrass now,but my foundation is in Country and Western with a lot of time spent on fiddle tunes.
Much more piano and fiddle around here than bluegrass.It's a lot of fun fitting the banjo in places I've never heard it before.

It's onto a tangent, but in a previous incarnation I taught P.E. and coached many sports/kids and even some real (?)  athletes.  I always figured an important measure/factor/goal/??  was the proportion of kids that "kept it up" ... after their competitive days were over.  I figure I did alright, but otoh, maybe I'm lucky that such stats on individual coaches/teachers isn't available.  

Owen, the “life gets in the way” reason might hold H2O for some , but I think many take up an instrument not realizing the concentrated time it takes with every day practice. There has to be some burning desire to learn the banjo that spurs a person on. It’s a solitary pursuit unlike most team sports , maybe more like track & field (discus, long jump, javelin, etc).
As for the “not-easy” WTCBU I labelled it “easy” (a relative term) because there are no slides, pulloffs, or hammer-ons. When I gave lessons I had some very basic arrangements of the note & pinch method.

.... difficult .... difficulter... and ree-wee, ree-wee difficult?     

'Way back when we were testing the snowbird lifestyle, and I was taking in-person lessons the teacher gave me something "easy" to do/practice.  I clued him in, and for the duration of our relationship he never made the mistake (?) again.   

"When I gave lessons I had some very basic arrangements of the note & pinch method."  ... see how "easy" it is???  

I find that if I just shoot a little bit above where I think I am, it helps. Just like when I played racquetball. I played with people just a bit better than I and it pulled me up. Too much, and I just got creamed. Same with the banjo.

A teacher can be anyone that plays better than you.

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Originally posted by steve davis

A teacher can be anyone that plays better than you.

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Could be for sure.   These days you can teach stuff without knowing what you're doing!

my teacher that I use online for clawhammer challenges me exactly enough to be hard and she also answers my continuous questions about very difficult songs and how the artists play with patience.  
 

I actually care a lot about learning music theory and playing from tablature but she saw my weaknesses of not understanding how to hear when chord changes occur and not playing with "flourish" and helped a lot.

but that hasn't stopped me from trying very difficult songs in the background dreaming.