I agree. I also tried to play songs that were way beyond my experience and ended up frustrated and irritated. I remember trying to play dill pickle rag when I had only been playing maybe a year and it just wouldn't work at all. I put it up and got it back out several years later and found it was very easy to play. Why? Because I had the basics down, lots of experience picking and jammin' and playing by ear.

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Originally posted by chuckv97

I know I did and paid the price,, I had to do the necessary work of learning easier tunes starting at a very slow tempo to get my timing and tone right. Even if one plays all the correct notes but isn’t experienced enough on banjo, the tune comes off sounding lifeless. Just my opinion.

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At what point would you suggest a beginner move on. One could be stuck in a beginner label for a lifetime too frightened to step up. I am a firm believer that once a beginner understands the fundamentals they should begin taking on new challenges. Learning the Geography of the Fretboard, Partial Chords, Intermediate and Advance licks, inside rolls and such. 

In my younger years I tried to teach banjo. Several of my students wanted to tackle songs they weren't ready for. They couldn't seem to grasp the idea that instructional materials are organized by level of ability. They wanted to play like Earl without working at it.
One fellow kept bringing a hymnal to his lessons. He wanted me to teach him songs that were way above his level. Often they would be in some key like A flat, and he couldn't understand why he had to learn Cripple Creek first.
I also noticed that some of my worst students had the best banjos. They seemed to think that having a good instrument would magically make them a pro.

CVW, You have brought up a very interesting topic. There are several steps to learning/performing a song; there are the early struggles to learn the basics, then one finally has the intro, middle & outro down, but the playing is stiff & mechanical w/ some clams, fudges & dead notes. The next step is a long period of making it flow in a natural, interesting & emotionally moving final performance.
These differences are probably what separates amateurs from professionals.
I think the best part of the BHO is the many amateurs & hobbyists who upload songs in the premature stage.  

I put that composition degree to good use and with little trouble create a simplified version of more complicated tunes for beginning students. I then gradually introduce technical bits that slowly guide the player towards the more fleshed out version. It works, and it helps with students' self esteem.

Well I can only speak for one beginner and I sure as hello stick to the basic stuff  [i.e. 3-2-4-1,3-2-4-1 adnauseum].  Lately two people have told me how they enjoyed my 3-2-4-1ing as it's lively; it adds spark/zest to the jams. [I silently speculate that if that's the case they'd probably have an orgasm IF  I actually knew how to play.... but I respond with a simple "Thank you."] 

 And the timing thing is kinda funny (?) two fairly accomplished local musicians have told me that my timing is good.  If it is, it's innate. Go figure!!

I still haven't figured out what "tone" entails .... but if ever anybody* says I can "pull tone" on banjo, I dunno what I'd do ... maybe tell him to sober up and then put 'er into l-o-n-g term storage.

* - anybody whose judgment I value/respect.

Maybe there are some out there now for banjo, but a series of graded books with solos, music theory concepts, and exercises of increasing difficulty would be helpful.

i also think part of the reason newbies want to tackle difficult tunes is because that's what they hear on CD's or YouTube,,, there just aren't any recordings or videos of bands where the banjo player is doing something an advanced beginner or early intermediate player can handle. Pete Wernick in his "Bluegrass Banjo" book from the 1970's introduces "She"ll Be Coming Round the Mountain" in simplified form, just melody, then a bluegrass picking style arrangement without slides, hammer-ons or pulloffs. Back then I found that very helpful. 

One of the reasons I like Geoff Hohwald’s stuff is that it builds from basic to more advanced. His Banjo Primer starts very simple and slowly introduces slides, hammer ons and pull offs. His other books build on the Primer.

I certainly worked on tunes that took me forever to get down.
After I could play them, I could never find anyone to play them with me..lol
Since I figured that out I concentrated on learning songs that would work in a typical jam situation.
I do think it is beneficial to work on songs or licks that are a bit above your level..I think it takes you to a higher level.

I always get a chuckle when i see someone ask for tab to something difficult or non bluegrass when they have only been playing a few months.

Tony Trischka's and Noam Pikelny's schools on Artistworks have material -- both tunes and technique -- organized within beginner, intermediate and advanced sections. Plenty of content in all categories. While they encourage people to work at the level most appropriate to their ability, it's online so everyone is free to work on what they choose.

And what's wrong with that? You offer an observation. I don't know if it's accurate. But what's the issue? I think people ought to push themselves. They'll find out what they can do and what they can't.

If the reason for your comment is people posting videos of themselves playing material they can't quite handle, what's the harm? One of the features on Artistworks is the Video Exchange in which people post videos of what they're working on for Tony or Noam to review and comment. Then the video become available for all members to see. Yes, we see some people stretching. Again, what's the harm?

Only when people not ready for it try to play in a performance-tempo jam does their over-reach affect others.

I'm for trying anything under the sun at any time.
You may find out that it isn't working out,but you may discover little bits and pieces that set you off on another tangent that you didn't expect.

You might also find out that you are better than you thought.

Ken, I’m not about to diss anyone posting their videos of material beyond their skill level. My point posting this is to encourage learning the banjo in bite-sized pieces. One can damage the hands, or become discouraged and quit, or acquire bad fingering or picking habits or bad timing by attempting difficult tunes. I applaud ArtistWorks for presenting lots of material at different skill levels and Geoff Hohwald for his teaching material. And I also want to emphasize that learning graded pieces students ARE always pushing themselves,, I'm not proposing staying at a certain level indefinitely.  Every next tune should have some new technique not offered before. 

Thanks for this post, Chuck.

Just wanted to know what you're getting at.

Avoiding bad habits is definitely a reason not to reach too far. Especially on your own.

I've got some bad habits from 50+ years of mostly self-taught playing and maybe some incorrect instruction. I've spent a few years now trying to unlearn my incorrect fingering of the Sally Goodin' position. I think one of my two teachers showed it to me wrong in the summer of 1972 and that's how I've been playing it ever since.

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

Thanks for this post, Chuck.

Just wanted to know what you're getting at.

Avoiding bad habits is definitely a reason not to reach too far. Especially on your own.

I've got some bad habits from 50+ years of mostly self-taught playing and maybe some incorrect instruction. I've spent a few years now trying to unlearn my incorrect fingering of the Sally Goodin' position. I think one of my two teachers showed it to me wrong in the summer of 1972 and that's how I've been playing it ever since.

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Thanks, Ken.  Do you mean the so-called e minor triangle with pinky reaching for the 11th fret, 2nd string? 
That's one I used to be able to manage but with age no more. I fret at the 10th with pinky and bend the string.

You never know—Years ago I met a self-taught fiddler who decided that the tune to begin with was Byron Berline’s “Sally Goodin.” Took a few months, but learn it he did—at which point he could play it well, and easily moved on to other tunes in other keys.

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

Thanks for this post, Chuck.

Just wanted to know what you're getting at.

Avoiding bad habits is definitely a reason not to reach too far. Especially on your own.

I've got some bad habits from 50+ years of mostly self-taught playing and maybe some incorrect instruction. I've spent a few years now trying to unlearn my incorrect fingering of the Sally Goodin' position. I think one of my two teachers showed it to me wrong in the summer of 1972 and that's how I've been playing it ever since.

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Yes. We all have bad habits. My bad habit is occasionally I like to play the accordion. Back to the serious. I sometimes see kids taking on serious tunes and handling them well at sessions I suppose it's all down to how much you can sponge in. 

Getting very comfortable with tablature in the 70s helped my playing in a big way.
Nobody in Port Clyde played bluegrass banjo and I was on my own.
Good tabs in BNL and Oak books (among others like the banjo fakebook and Frets magazine) kept me from developing bad habits along with parents that played very well with excellent timing and harmony.
Surround yourself with the best examples of good playing that you can find.

What would you define as a difficult tune? Is it fast tempo? Chords other than 1-4-5? Difficult melody or rhythm? Chord changes too fast? Time sig. in something other then 2/2, 2/4, or 4/4?

This is an interesting thread for me. Last year around the holidays we started talking about a band. Our banjo player was long gone and somehow I got drafted to be the banjo player. Before that I was a guitar player. I bought my banjo in February. The band hit the road, so to speak, in late May. I've been playing banjo all summer. I'm not even sure what I'm doing. I don't think I can play a single song the way I see people posting videos of themselves. Maybe Jim Pankey's version of Cripple Creek, but our band doesn't play Cripple Creek. I vamp a lot, play over chords, throw in some slides and hammer ons where they feel good. I make some noise. I even take breaks sometimes. Everyone seems happy with it, audiences clap and band members smile. I'm heading out in an hour to do some open house.

We wind down here in November and I'm hoping to sit down and learn a lot this winter, maybe learn a song or two, maybe even take some lessons if I can find a teacher. If I do, I'll post them. But honestly, my attitude has always been nothing ventured nothing gained. But my question is, how many songs do you have to learn to be something? I mean, how many songs to get the better than beginner badge? I certainly want to be better than a beginner next spring when we start up again.

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Originally posted by 250gibson

What would you define as a difficult tune? Is it fast tempo? Chords other than 1-4-5? Difficult melody or rhythm? Chord changes too fast? Time sig. in something other then 2/2, 2/4, or 4/4?

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I'd say, tunes that require technique that's beyond the player's current ability to execute accurately. It's a relative thing. A difficult tune for me might be, say, Tony Furtado's arrangement of "President Garfield's Hornpipe", but for one of my beginner students it might be the basic down-the-neck break of "Foggy Mountain Breakdown".

I think balance is important. It's not bad to challenge oneself with technically difficult material, but that should not come at the expense of fundamentals, otherwise the student ends up not being able to play anything at all. And mastery--real mastery--of simple tunes, licks, and techniques should be--can be!--a source of joy to the student, and an encouragement to keep at it and go further.

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Originally posted by BG Banjo

This is an interesting thread for me. Last year around the holidays we started talking about a band. Our banjo player was long gone and somehow I got drafted to be the banjo player...
 

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Same thing for me! I didn't even want to do it, but with a background in blues fingerpicking and open g tuning, I fell right into it. It's been a blast! 2 bands (country, gospel, swing, cover, etc) for a combined total of over 20 years. To this day I could not sit down and show you a foreword roll, or play anything bluegrass note for note. But I can play along with just about anything, and play the crap out of my banjo. Because of repeated requests, I've learned hack versions of the standards like FMB, hillbilly's, tons of gospels, dueling banjos etc. Now retired, I have the time to go backwards, and actually learn some real banjo stuff, and really have fun... yep, thank you Jim Pankey and YouTube! 
 

I mention this because knowing zilch on the banjo, but winging finger patterns and knowing chords, never stopped me from having a blast, joining bands, and surviving jams. Sometimes I wonder if standard banjo teaching is backwards. If someone made me play FMB note for note in a teacher student relationship, I may not have stuck with it. But when I picked up my first banjo, found the chords for Hotel California, and made up picking patterns while my friends jammed the songs... I was hooked for life. I have to wonder if playing back up first, to students favorite songs would light some fire under someone currently stuck with complex traditional bluegrass. 
 

Edit: whoops, sorry if this post was drifting... I actually had it mixed up with the other thread in "other banjo topics" about students having a hard time. Oh well, I'll leave it, maybe it will resonate with someone...

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Originally posted by chuckv97
Thanks, Ken.  Do you mean the so-called e minor triangle with pinky reaching for the 11th fret, 2nd string?
That's one I used to be able to manage but with age no more. I fret at the 10th with pinky and bend the string.

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Yes. That's it.

I eventually learned that even when you intend to fret only a 2-string partial on 2nd and 1st strings, Earl's way (and Sonny's, JD's, Tony's and essentially everyone's) is to use the index and ring same as you would if fretting the E-minor shape. In that case, you use the pinky to fret non-chord notes at 10th and 11th fret of 2nd string.

I have to work to play it that way.

I'm fairly certain that when my second teacher showed me an up-the-neck verse of Little Maggie with 2-note partial G and F chords, he fretted the 2nd and 1st strings with index and middle and then used the ring for 11th fret (on G) and 9th (on F). If he didn't finger it that way, he didn't correct me when I did. Banjo was not his primary instrument. His name was Jorge Strunz, who went on to become a world-renowned progressive jazz/flamenco guitarist, half of the duo Strunz and Farah, who have been recording since 1979. He was teaching at Charlie Byrd's House of Music.

My first teacher -- who had not been playing long and sent me to his teacher (Jorge) when he ran out of stuff -- showed me the up-the-neck verse of Earl's Breakdown and Lonesome Road Blues.  I can't say whether he fretted that G chord position correctly or incorrectly -- because I don't remember. But neither do I remember him correcting the way I played it.

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

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Originally posted by chuckv97
Thanks, Ken.  Do you mean the so-called e minor triangle with pinky reaching for the 11th fret, 2nd string?
That's one I used to be able to manage but with age no more. I fret at the 10th with pinky and bend the string.

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Yes. That's it.

I eventually learned that even when you intend to fret only a 2-string partial on 2nd and 1st strings, Earl's way (and Sonny's, JD's, Tony's and essentially everyone's) is to use the index and ring same as you would if fretting the E-minor shape. In that case, you use the pinky to fret non-chord notes at 10th and 11th fret of 2nd string.

I have to work to play it that way.

I'm fairly certain that when my second teacher showed me an up-the-neck verse of Little Maggie with 2-note partial G and F chords, he fretted the 2nd and 1st strings with index and middle and then used the ring for 11th fret (on G) and 9th (on F). If he didn't finger it that way, he didn't correct me when I did. Banjo was not his primary instrument. His name was Jorge Strunz, who went on to become a world-renowned progressive jazz/flamenco guitarist, half of the duo Strunz and Farah, who have been recording since 1979. He was teaching at Charlie Byrd's House of Music.

My first teacher -- who had not been playing long and sent me to his teacher (Jorge) when he ran out of stuff -- showed me the up-the-neck verse of Earl's Breakdown and Lonesome Road Blues.  I can't say whether he fretted that G chord position correctly or incorrectly -- because I don't remember. But neither do I remember him correcting the way I played it.

 

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Wow,, I vaguely remember Strunz & Farah .  Saw Charlie Byrd at George's Spaghetti House in Toronto in the early 1980's,, he had a couple of local jazzers accompanying him. I play his "Swing '59" on guitar. 
Back to banjo, my pinky is way shorter than my ring finger, so I have to really lean the whole shebang towards the head to grab the 11th fret, 2nd string, but alas, that was when I was younger. 

It might just be the approach I took but I jumped into 'harder'/intermediate songs fairly quickly. I learned basic songs while keeping one I really liked in the back burner. I mean I wasn't jumping into drop thumb and crazy speed and stuff, but just songs that were a little more technical that I really liked. I think it kept me encouraged to practice while I worked on the technical skills to get there. I'm also not too put off by failure or putting a song down though haha