The harmonic (chime) will ALWAYS be a perfect octave above the open string; that's built into the physics of how things vibrate. But the fretted note will only be a perfect octave IF the bridge is in the right place.

So the chime is your reference note; you compare the fretted note to it. If the fretted note is sharp relative to the chime, that means the distance from the 12th fret to the bridge is too short, and you have to move the bridge back toward the tailpiece a little. If the fretted note is flat, you have to move the bridge away from the tailpiece. When I set my bridge, I make sure both D strings are fretting in tune at the 12th fret.

But complicating the matter is the issue of temperament--the little adjustments that enable us (in theory) to play in every key on the instrument. Your electronic tuner is likely set for equal-tone temperament, in which the third note of the scale--ANY scale--is a bit sharp. If you're just playing in G or closely related keys like C and D, your ear will actually prefer the sound of a B that's a little flatter than what the tuner tells you.

I might use the tuner to get my B string into the ball park, but I will make sure the fretted D (at the third fret) is perfectly in tune, and matches the open 1st string.

I would urge you to do a little research on the Internet on the harmonics associated with a vibrating string. If you understand that, it will help you understand the explanations of the "chiming" test that will be provided here by other BHO members.

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin  [snip]  But complicating the matter is the issue of temperament--the little adjustments that enable us (in theory) to play in every key on the instrument. Your electronic tuner is likely set for equal-tone temperament, in which the third note of the scale--ANY scale--is a bit sharp. If you're just playing in G or closely related keys like C and D, your ear will actually prefer the sound of a B that's a little flatter than what the tuner tells you.

I might use the tuner to get my B string into the ball park, but I will make sure the fretted D (at the third fret) is perfectly in tune, and matches the open 1st string.

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As a small sidebar, I've often wondered why I always need to "fine-tune" my tuning [CGBD] after using my electronic contact tuner, which is supposedly accurate to 1 cent.  Now I know the answer -- "equal temperament"!   

After using the tuner, I go back and double-check by comparing each string with the next one (fretting the C string at G, then the G string at B, and the B string at D).  My final test is a G7 chord at the third fret, followed by a G major chord at the seventh fret.  It seems like something always needs a little tweaking, and now I finally know why. 

The worst offender is usually getting a good tuning between the G and B strings.  That's only magnified by the fact that I like to use a wound G, which has a tendency to go slightly flat for me after about 30 minutes of playing, who knows why.   

Anyway, the tuner is helpful in making sure I'm in tune with everyone else in the band, and then my double-check helps to make sure the instrument is in tune with itself -- both things are important.  SETH

FWIW, someone--maybe Ricky Skaggs?--once said, "In Heaven there are no B strings."

For God's sake, DON'T try to match the fretted B against the open B. There's additional complication from the varying flexibility of the different-gauged strings. The G string often stretches sharp, which is made worse by that fourth fret being placed according to equal-tone temperament!

BTW, sounds like you're playing a four-string plectrum banjo--no?

I will say a bit about the head matter that you bring up. What will the new head you are planning to put on the banjo do different than the old head didn't, or isn't? While there are reasons to change a banjo's head, I am not sure proper intonation is one but only you can decide. I apologize is you are not relating the intonation issue with the banjo's head. In any event, there are videos and HO posts with instructions on changing the head. The best advice I can give is that you learn how best to change a banjo head by changing a banjo head.

Bobby

The chimes will always exactly match the open strings no matter where the bridge is placed on the head.
First make sure that the open strings are "0" on the tuner.
Fret the 1st string at 12 and read the tuner.
If it frets sharp move the bridge toward the tailpiece a little bit and retune the open strings to "0" again.If it frets flat move the bridge toward the neck.
Anytime you move the bridge you must retune the open strings back to "0" in preparation for the next try.

Ira "the chime is the reference for testing the fretted note" and your subsequent explanation of flat/sharp is exactly what I was looking for. The tuning you describe where the B string is tuned to D at the third fret is the same method of tuning I use. The Noam Pikelny masterclass taught that as "tempered tuning" and I've used it since without really knowing why.  In that tuning, with everything reading green on my tuner, every B you play will have a gnarly buzz/ring/shwing sound paired with it. That's every B and every chord that includes a B. Its hard to avoid playing it, believe me I'm trying!

The reason I'm changing the head is that I believe the outermost part of the feet of the bridge are starting to push through the head. I've tried getting a decent picture but its so difficult in that space. The glare of the inside of the head and the ever so slight depression caused by the feet make it impossible to see unless you're holding it in your hands.

And no, it isn't a plectrum, I've just got the rare talent that makes 5 strings sound like 4 

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Originally posted by mikeb210

The reason I'm changing the head is that I believe the outermost part of the feet of the bridge are starting to push through the head. 
 

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If the bridge feet are pushing through the head more than normal, your head may be too loose.

I agree with Fathand. If your bridge is making a significant indentation in the head, and you’re getting sympathetic buzzing on B notes, your head is extremely loose.

I LOVE my Deering smile bridge. I have several, and the oldest has been in service since 2017, and still no sag whatsoever. And that’s on a 12” rim.

Fathand Dean T I randomly checked my phone at 2 am this morning and made a noise that scared my dogs when I saw your messages! Took everything I had in me not to get up and immediately try twisting those hooks. I'm not sure what the normal amount of indentation is but I would guess its maybe 1/8mm at most. Just enough to snag your nail if you run your finger across it almost parallel. Its not smooth, that much is sure. I'm going to take it apart in a few minutes and see what happens. Thanks for the advice everyone!

I think I found the problem. Not sure how to put a picture in the same box I'm typing in but try to visualise the j hook 1 over from the tailpiece if you're moving clockwise and then put a slight bend in the middle of it. Its a weird bend, like someone kicked the middle out but the tension kept the top and bottom in line and level. Or like someone took a hammer to just that one hook and it buckled in the middle. Should I even try tightening it or just wait for a replacement? Replace all of them at once or just the problem hook?

https://www.banjohangout.org/forum/attachment_manager/a_mngr_added.asp?addType=1&fileID=308269

One further issue: on instruments with high action - whether by player preference or poor setup - a string fretted at the 12th fret will be a tiny bit sharper than the unfretted chime sound over the 12th fret. The fretting stretches the string and sharpens the tone a tiny bit. Not always enough to be a problem, but if you use a high quality electronic tuner - a Peterson, for example - you can see the difference. Usually the difference is so small that the player can just power ahead, but it's good to be aware of the issue as you work on good setup.

>>Should I even try tightening it or just wait for a replacement? Replace all of them at once or just the problem hook?<<

No reason to replace hooks that are not experiencing a problem. Do be sure the replacement will fit because there can be some differences in them. Also you might need to come up with some way to determine that the tension is even on all the hooks as well. A Neery Torque Wrench or Drum Dial are two instruments you can purchase to determine equal tension on the hooks.  The bent hook must have been hit at some point to cause it to bend.  They don't usually do that or at least I have not seen anything like that from just tension. 

Bobby

BobbyE can I just remove the wacky hook and replace it without doing anything to the other hooks? I'm concerned about putting an extremely uneven pressure on the head but I don't know if that's a real thing or if I'm just making up things to worry about. The hook in question is directly under the spot where my arm contacts the rest. In fact, the rest covers 5 hooks and 3 of them have a bend. One is much more pronounced than the other two but all three have a similar pattern.
Could I be slowly deforming them just from holding it everyday? I don't think I'm squeezing it that hard. I'm certain its never been dropped or hit with anything though. The only other guess I have is the case closes kind of snug against the tailpiece section, maybe its leveraging against the rest and putting some pressure on the hooks for the entire time its closed in the case?

calicoplayer I've noticed what you described, the fretted note is just a hair sharp and your explanation of why makes sense to me. I've got a sense from talking to everybody about it that getting it in tune is one thing but might need to tweak it slightly to make it sound "right"

Actually, that hook does not look whacky. Some manufacturers use bent hooks to clear the flesh hoop, or supply the needed clearance for a certain style armrest. Deering uses them, in fact my latest brand new Deering uses bent hooks all the way around. Even if not needed, a bent hook will tighten and function just as good as a straight hook.

I alway set my intonation to the fretted notes, using a tuner. I want my playing to note true up the neck. Chimes are a good start, but don’t reflect the fretted notes.

It is POSSIBLE, but not common, for the string slot in the NUT (up at the peghead) to be cut at the wrong angle up and down. I found this problem on one Gibson reissue banjo. It was really driving me crazy. Essentially, the string scale was slightly 1/8" longer the way the slot was cut with its highest point at the BACK edge. This meant it's scale length was longer, and what with the frets being fixed, I was fretting that B string a little further along its length than the other strings. I took a nut slotting file and knocked off the high back edge and got the string to bear at the front of nut, and problem was solved. I didn't deepen the slot at the front, not wanting to get too close to the first fret -- swapping an intonation problem for a buzzing problem. This also solved slight B string intonation problem from the 3rd to 8th fret too.

Stelling equipped their banjos with "compensated nuts" to solve other common 5 string intonation problems.

It's possible that the B string nut slot is part of your buzzing problem -- buzzing IN the nut slot if the slot is not angled down away from the string enough.

Be VERY cautious about this. Messing up nut slots is easy to do, and not easy to repair.

Good luck.

A bent hook or two is no problem.
Both you and your banjo need some in-person time with someone (or better, lots of people) with the skills you're trying to acquire here. That includes playing technique, setup, maintenance, etc. You're beating your head against the wall which is the limitations of text to convey concepts which are vastly easier to communicate directly through your eyes, ears, and hands.

Dan Gellert I hear you. I have a hard time getting to the jams because I keep weird hours and work a lot. I also don't know anybody who plays an instrument so non-jam jams are minimal too.

I reached out to Deering to ask about the bent hook and they do in fact use bent hooks "sometimes." I asked for clarification about if that's sop for the Eagle II and will update here when I hear back.

I've gone around and around again with this buzzing issue over the past year. I've dusted the nut and bridge slots with pencil dust, changed out the bridge, changed strings, moved the bridge, adjusted the tailpiece and coord rods, all without making a lasting change to the banjo's tone. Sometimes it would improve for a day or two but the sound was never quite right(thin, hollow, hissing buzz) and the buzz always returns. I ordered a new banjo head and when I took the pot off, noticed the bent hooks. I paused the plan to change the head until I could reach out to Deering about those hooks. In the meantime, I've reattached the pot and BY GOD ITS A MIRACLE... The buzz is gone. The tone of the banjo is warm and rich and syrupy just like I wanted. No buzz, no sharp edges on the sound. Make it make sense, please!

I swear, when it comes to the banjo (and music in general) the more I learn the less I know. Every new piece of knowledge unlocks a door to another room full of things I didn't even know I didn't know. It's kind of overwhelming but also very exciting. Thanks again for all of the advice you all have offered!

YES! GOD IS GOOD!!

If you use a tuner like a Korg DT-2 or a Peterson tune the b string 6 cents flat.

Being a fan of equal temp. as a great compromize, I have found a way to tune the banjo, when the tuner is gone, that works for me /at least in G tuning. Preconditions are these: That you can identify two identical notes, that the thick D string is 100% well intonated (chime and fret at the 12. fret) and that the frets are placed precisely, and that the fourth string is not too old. But it goes like this:

1) Tune the fourth string after something reliable.
2) Fret this (4.) string at the 5. fret and tune the G string after this tone.
3) Fret (still) the 4. string at the 9. fret and tune the B string after that tone.
3) Chime still the 4. string at 12. fret and tune the 1. string after that tone.
4) Chime the G string (12 fret) and tune the 5. string after that tone (and perhaps check with the g on the first string. (and run the procedure over one more time if the first time is not enough).

Since all notes origin from the fourth string, (except step 4) you wont bring an error on one string further to the next ones. It works for me. maybe someone out there can use it. And if you cannot - no harm is done :) Steen.

Tuners are cheap and take all the guesswork out of it.

People show up from all over the world at a jam and everybody's in tune in a couple of minutes.

I agree completely, Steve and being an eq. temp. fan like most of us, I go all in for them especially in groups, as you say. But my tuner is a bit old, and sometimes it forgets to come wirh me :), and then I have found that the method, I mentioned above, works quick and precicely for me, as soon as I have borroved a D from someone. Or if I am sitting alone at home and don´t bother to use the tuner.
Tuners are a fantastic tool, but we should also be able to tune the banjo precicely without.
Often you can tune the banjo just by listening to the open strings and the G cord, but if you are under stress, it may be good and quicker and more precise to tune after idetical tones, I think. I also think it id different what works for different people :) Steen

I have no problem tuning by ear.I grew up where there was a piano in many homes and the first thing we did was tune to it by ear.
When I was in our school band our leader John Parker would listen to each section and quickly identify the reed or horn that needed to adjust its tuning.

An old friend of mine in the 60s (who later worked for Anne Murray) taught me how to tune a guitar by ear.
Tune the A string to a fork,piano or other instrument and the other strings to it by ear.
Then go to the 12th fret and compare the D to the A string.With both chimes ringing at once,tune the D string up or down until there is no waivering in the tones.The oscillating waivering goes away and that is a correct D,but only as correct as your initial A setting.

Then play comparative chimes of the A and E retuning the E until there is no waivering of tones.
Then chime the D and G together and remove the waivering tone from the G string.
Compare chimes of G to B and B to high E in the same manner.

Then play a root G chord and be amazed.