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I have a short-scale (20.5) vintage tenor banjo, which sounds nice but is hard to fret. I've played guitar/ukulele for years and I have a 5-string that I can play "all the chords" on plectrum-style with no strain, but this tenor is quite different. I have trouble getting a clean 4-string chord without a lot of effort.
Unfortunately I don't know any tenor players and don't have access to any other instruments, other than dubiously set up second-hand ones at indifferent local music stores.
My question is, is this normal due to heavier strings and I should just practice, or should I work on the setup more? I'd rather be playing music than pumping iron. I got a new 1/2 inch bridge and loosened the head a bit, I'm at about 9/16 inch (3.6mm) action. Thanks!
I came from 5string to tenor and found certain chords difficult but they get easier with practice. You might find this video on hand positioning helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdGaOaOO-bw Also, you can use light to medium strings on a 17fret in CGDA.
Edited by - hobogal on 10/09/2024 00:19:30
My own theory is that chord shapes on the five string are generally easier because of being tuned in fourths, so like guitar it’s easy to find the notes that make up the major and minor chords (as they’re often within only a couple of frets on adjacent strings). Tenor banjo is tuned in fifths placing chord notes often further apart, fret wise, sometimes meaning more of a finger stretch, whereas the five string is usually tuned to an open chord anyway, meaning the notes that comprise chords are never that far apart fret wise.
Tenor banjo though has the advantage that playing tunes is actually much easier, as scales more readily run up often just a couple of adjacent strings, largely within the compass of five frets. That involves playing in a linear fashion up and down the strings of course, rather than across several strings, or even hopping back and forth across the strings with melodic five string playing. Fiddle and mandolin players also play linearly in the main too, which is why playing fiddle tunes (note for note) on the five string and on guitar is actually more demanding.
I don't feel confortable playing chords on a 17 fret tenor, I had one (a beautiful old vega little wonder) but I sold it, the frets are to short for my finger, it is more 'mandolin-like'... I feel much better on 19 fret for chord playing, maybe you may try a 19 fret and see if it is easier for you...
Is your tenor in standard CGDA tuning or Irish tuning? The Irish tuning uses heavy strings, I believe.
I play tenor, plectrum, five/string, mandolin, mandola, and guitar, and don’t find the tenor particularly difficult to fret. The mandolin is another story; it has by far the highest tension (with double courses) and an exceedingly tiny fingerboard.
Has your banjo been properly set up? A professional setup is well worth the cost for any instrument. It makes a huge difference.
This sounds like a setup issue, but maybe it’s something else about this particular instrument. I play guitar, tenor, plectrum, and mandolin (with a side helping of five string) and don’t find tenor difficult enough to have any complaints. In many ways, I find it the easiest instrument to play.
Unfortunately, it sounds from the OP that you are not near any music stores or repair shops that have much understanding of banjos. But if you’re able to find one that has the expertise, I would recommend having them look your instrument over and set it up for your requirements; including lighter strings if necessary.
I'm wondering if the action is too high, which could be the problem. You may need to swap in a lower bridge (or sand down the feet slightly on the current one), and/or tweak the adjusting rods a bit to change (reduce) the angle of the neck relative to the banjo head.
With a short-scale neck, the strings usually need to be heavier in order to get sufficient tension to be tuned properly. So heavier gauge strings, which require more pressure to fret, could be contributing to the problem. And you didn't indicate whether the banjo is new, old or was heavily played. It's also possible that, depending upon age and prior usage, the frets may have worn down. That can also increase the action as well as decrease the effectiveness of the frets. So a refretting might be needed, too.
Since there are so many variables here, I agree that a lookover by someone with experience in guitars or banjos would be helpful. But I don't think decreasing the tension of the head is a good idea. Although it would lower the action, it will also change the sound of the banjo, and not for the better. The head needs to be fairly tight to obtain that customary snappy banjo sound and a decent volume.
Good luck with your banjo, and please let us know how things turned out! SETH
Edited by - sethb on 10/09/2024 06:37:32
Thanks all for your replies! And yes, since I wasn't clear, I am referring to the effort to press the string down. Chord shapes are fine. I'm in CGDA.
It is very helpful to know that I don't need to push through. It reminds me of when I first found a guitar in the attic, left behind by a previous tenant, and I did some unhelpful "repairs" which produced an instrument that turned me off guitars for 15 years.
This is a Vega Little Wonder that I spent all of $300 on. It appears in good shape, no pitting in the fretboard, frets seem even to my (uneducated) eye. Which unfortunately probably means a neck angle issue, and I need to make an economical decision whether it's worth the cost (assuming I can find a banjo repairperson) or if I should keep waiting for a good deal on a banjo with a coordinator rod.
There is probably someone in my mid-sized city who can work on a banjo, but they don't advertise...
quote:
Originally posted by NatomasI have a short-scale (20.5) vintage tenor banjo, which sounds nice but is hard to fret. I've played guitar/ukulele for years and I have a 5-string that I can play "all the chords" on plectrum-style with no strain, but this tenor is quite different. I have trouble getting a clean 4-string chord without a lot of effort.
Unfortunately I don't know any tenor players and don't have access to any other instruments, other than dubiously set up second-hand ones at indifferent local music stores.
My question is, is this normal due to heavier strings and I should just practice, or should I work on the setup more? I'd rather be playing music than pumping iron. I got a new 1/2 inch bridge and loosened the head a bit, I'm at about 9/16 inch (3.6mm) action. Thanks!
I also have a vintage tenor with 20.25" scale length, and the action is about 2mm at the 12th fret and 1 mm at the 5th fret. 3.6mm would be very high for me. When you measured the 3.6mm, where on the fretboard did you take the measurement?
Edited by - johnstephen on 10/09/2024 08:41:27
quote:
Originally posted by johnstephen
When you measured the 3.6mm, where on the fretboard did you take the measurement?
12th fret, 3rd string using a string action ruler card.
quote:
Originally posted by CullodenThe first thing that entered my mind was that the nut is too high. That will make a banjo tough to play. Check the string clearance at the first fret.
I don't have the banjo in front of me now, but before I changed the bridge it was about 1/32 at the first fret.
quote:
Originally posted by Natomas This is a Vega Little Wonder that I spent all of $300 on. It appears in good shape, no pitting in the fretboard, frets seem even to my (uneducated) eye. Which unfortunately probably means a neck angle issue, and I need to make an economical decision whether it's worth the cost (assuming I can find a banjo repairperson) or if I should keep waiting for a good deal on a banjo with a coordinator rod.
I'm not sure, but even if there's no metal coordinator rods, don't most of the older Vegas have a wooden dowel stick that can adjust the neck angle and the string action? And if there's no dowel, I think you could still adjust the neck angle by shimming the neck where it joins the banjo head. SETH
quote:
Originally posted by sethbI'm not sure, but even if there's no metal coordinator rods, don't most of the older Vegas have a wooden dowel stick that can adjust the neck angle and the string action? And if there's no dowel, I think you could still adjust the neck angle by shimming the neck where it joins the banjo head. SETH
Yes it has a dowel stick with a "brace" clamp, which I have heard has minimal impact on neck angle. I've tried using the screw and I haven't noticed any difference. I am interested in shimming but I don't know how to separate the heel from the pot to begin with. If I can find a knowledgeable repairperson I would hope they could do that affordably.
I would try lowering the bridge first, only because it's a simpler and cheaper fix that you can do yourself. Just be careful that you don't take too much wood off the bridge's feet, and that you sand the bottom evenly (maybe put the sandpaper on a piece of glass or other surface that you know is perfectly flat). Go slow and test the bridge along the way -- if you lower the action too much, you'll probably end up with fret buzz near the nut. And when you lower the action, you will also need to correct the intonation by readjusting the location of bridge on the head (probably by moving it slightly closer to the neck).
Also sight down the neck to make sure it's not warped, otherwise all your other efforts may be in vain. I'm not sure if your Vega also has a truss rod in the neck to correct that sort of problem. If the neck is warped and there's no truss rod, then it might be time to give it up.
Unless this is a rare or especially nice Vega, you may not want to plow a lot of money into it. At some point, it doesn't make sense to do that. SETH
Edited by - sethb on 10/10/2024 16:38:16
Update: I located a repairperson, not close but not too far. He inserted a shim in about 3 minutes, and made it significantly easier to play. I measure about 3/32" (about 2.4mm) at the 12th fret.
I'll describe what he did in case others are searching (as I had been): Loosen the strings. Moisten a piece of veneer with spit. Hold the pot and have another person push firmly down on the neck. Ease the veneer into the gap.
It's not perfect -- there is too much bow, and I should take his advice and find a straighter leftover neck -- but I am very happy with the result for now.
Thanks for your replies & encouragement!
Glad to hear that things worked out well for you!
From your comments, it sounds like there's no truss rod in the neck to correct the bow in the neck. A little bit of bow isn't bad -- most stringed instruments have a tiny bit of concave bow in the middle of the fretboard, and it's called "neck relief." This helps prevent fret buzz on the middle and upper frets when you're playing chords/notes nearer to the nut (because a string vibrates more in its center than it does at its ends). Too much bow isn't good because it raises the action unnecessarily, and it probably screws up the intonation, too.
But if the banjo is now more playable, I think you've done the best you can do for it. Enjoy it and have fun with it! SETH