Does anyone know the significance/history of the blonde/natural finish on a 60s Vega PS5?
I believe this is a 1962.
The majority seem to be sunburst. Just wondering if the natural was a factory option or so? Also in my case the pot seems to be stained different to the neck which looks a little odd.
Id also appreciate any thoughts/knowledge on the quality/sound of these banjos, and how it changed throughout the production years. The bolts through the rim and thin bracket band don't scream quality.
Just out of curiosity, at what fret is the 5th string pip? Can't tell from the back of the neck photo.
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Originally posted by rminkeJust out of curiosity, at what fret is the 5th string pip? Can't tell from the back of the neck photo.
8th
In 1969, I bought a Vega longneck banjo at Shackleton's Music store in Louisville. Thom Haile, brother of luthier Haskell Haile, was the instrument tech there. His work included instruments from the Louisville Orchestra as well as instruments by Martin, Vega and others since Shackelton's was a dealer for these companies. Thom Haile married a 1927-ish Vega tubaphone pot with a 1961 Seeger neck and posted it for sale in his shop. That neck was blond, much like yours. I can't say whether Vega offered blond necks on new banjos, but Haile got this component from Vega for this project.
David
My "Alex Hassilev" model Vega long neck Seeger had the 5th string @ the 9th fret & a blond neck. Always confusing to move between my other long neck banjos & that one. (not that I'm that hard to confuse anyway!)
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Originally posted by BawheidDoes anyone know the significance/history of the blonde/natural finish on a 60s Vega PS5?
I believe this is a 1962.
The majority seem to be sunburst. Just wondering if the natural was a factory option or so? Also in my case the pot seems to be stained different to the neck which looks a little odd.
Id also appreciate any thoughts/knowledge on the quality/sound of these banjos, and how it changed throughout the production years. The bolts through the rim and thin bracket band don't scream quality.
I don't hang out here much anymore but I've posted the answer so many times over the years that I expected others to beat me to the punch.
At some point in the late 1920s, Vega went to neck carving machines to save labor. This caused a problem—the machines left scorch marks where the neck transitioned to the heel and the headstock. Burn marks often do not sand off without removing a lot of wood so Vega covered them up with brown stain. On some banjos including mahogany, the entire neck was stained brown while on many including the PS-5, the stain was blended into a 'burst pattern on the back of the neck.
Blonde necks are hand carved—that's the difference. In the early '60s, the upcharge was around $80, around what many middle-class workers were paid in a week. Both of Pete's PS-5s had blond neck. Mine is also a '62.
Since the blondies are hand carved, non-standard features are often found including extra wide, extra narrow, stars instead of dots on every fret marker etc., the Excell/Exel/Excel (they spelled it many ways). Since all were custom ordered, Vega could be most accommodating.
As to when the bracket band became thinner and bolted through, I've never been able to tell. Waverly made the pot assemblies starting around 1915. It was a long multi-layered, laminated pipe cut into slices and fitted with hardware before being shipped off to Vega to be matched with a neck.
I have owned a large number of Tubaphones from the late 'teens to the mid 1970s by Martin. I cannot tell you of a specific sound difference attributable to the bolt-through bracket band and coordinator rods or truss tube/rod.
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Originally posted by rminkeMy "Alex Hassilev" model Vega long neck Seeger had the 5th string @ the 9th fret & a blond neck. Always confusing to move between my other long neck banjos & that one. (not that I'm that hard to confuse anyway!)
Although modeled after a custom made for Erik Darling in 1958, Alex's was the original Exel. He had the 5th string moved up one fret so that he could capo and play in F without re-tuning. Had Shubb side capos existed yet, It would not have been necessary.
When I opened for The Limelighters at the San Mateo Co. Fair in 1991, I asked him to bring it so that I could look and play on it in person. That was cool as was hanging with him and Lou Gottlieb. Had dinner with Glen Yarbourough that evening—even cooler.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 09/16/2024 11:40:54
Pete Colby relayed the story that when a blank was in the machine and turned out curly, it would cause the shaper blades to chatter. Pete wanted to hand carve it and make a nice neck but Bill Nelson would take the curly blank and toss it in the stove for heat.
Bill Nelson's goal, in opposition to his father, was to figure out how to make the cheapest banjo possible.
Eli Kaufman would hang around Vega and told me that Bill Nelson just did not care about banjos, they might as well be washing machines. To Bill it was just product.
Nelson was also kinda a jerk. I've read letters he sent to people like Shirley Spaulding where he is demanding her to send him all of her other banjos so that she would not ever be seen playing a different make as part of his offer to send her one of his.
Grandpa Jones wrote in his book about his experience with Bill Nelson and it was not that far off from the above. In this case, he was sending Jones a lower level banjo not knowing he was a featured act on Hee Haw. This made Jones mad as Nelson had sent others VIPs. After some back and forth Nelson sent him a VIP. When Nelson saw Jones on TV with it, he called and offered to gold plate it. Things seem pretty one sided with Nelson.
The Vega banjos of the 60s were designed around cost cutting. They are not terrible banjos tough (I owned a Wonder for a few years and liked playing it, just not the way it looked).
Nelson also could have cared less about their own history. Eli told me the story of how Bill decided to throw away all of their guitar making tooling. All the tooling, bending jigs, templates, patterns, etc. from before WW2-- in the dumpster or stove.
Shortly thereafter Bill decided to start making guitars again and had to start from scratch!
Erik Darling also had an Exell given to him from Vega.
mikehalloran - That’s fascinating information about the blond necks being hand carved. I one knowledgeable person tell me my blond neck was not a Vega since it was not stained. I was certain that it was a Vega neck since Thom Haile was an authorized repair person for Vega (or the equivalent). Don’t be too stingy with your visits.
David
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Originally posted by Shop the FolkErik Darling also had an Exell given to him from Vega.
Besides his first D'Angellico conversion, he did own at least two more blondes. If there was a third, actually marked X-Cel (or however it was spelled that day) given to him by Vega, that would be fun to know about. Do you have a picture or more info? It would post-date any of these three.
Here is a 3-page discussion about Erik's three long necks as we knew about them in 2015.
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Originally posted by BawheidDoes anyone know the significance/history of the blonde/natural finish on a 60s Vega PS5?
I believe this is a 1962.
The majority seem to be sunburst. Just wondering if the natural was a factory option or so? Also in my case the pot seems to be stained different to the neck which looks a little odd.
Id also appreciate any thoughts/knowledge on the quality/sound of these banjos, and how it changed throughout the production years. The bolts through the rim and thin bracket band don't scream quality.
Just to say - looks like a nice banjo to me. A tubaphone is a tubaphone! Hope you enjoy it!
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Originally posted by Andyrhydycreuauquote:
Originally posted by BawheidDoes anyone know the significance/history of the blonde/natural finish on a 60s Vega PS5?
I believe this is a 1962.
The majority seem to be sunburst. Just wondering if the natural was a factory option or so? Also in my case the pot seems to be stained different to the neck which looks a little odd.
Id also appreciate any thoughts/knowledge on the quality/sound of these banjos, and how it changed throughout the production years. The bolts through the rim and thin bracket band don't scream quality.Just to say - looks like a nice banjo to me. A tubaphone is a tubaphone! Hope you enjoy it!
Andy we've chatted a couple times in the past on youtube and such. I thought you were in Wales, but have you moved to Helensburgh in Scotland now? Thats just an hour up the road from me. My aunt and uncle have actually just moved there too.
scott
Edited by - Bawheid on 09/17/2024 22:20:17
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Originally posted by dbrooksmikehalloran - …. I was certain that it was a Vega neck since Thom Haile was an authorized repair person for Vega (or the equivalent).
David
Thom used to post here a long time ago and tell interesting Vegas stories. Yes, he converted Vega banjos to long necks using blonde Vega PS-5 necks. He was an authorized repairman and had direct access to any parts he wanted.
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Originally posted by BawheidDoes anyone know the significance/history of the blonde/natural finish on a 60s Vega PS5?
…
I found a PS-5 on Reverb this morning. While the seller admits to some work being done, the refinished neck is not being mentioned.
I made a composite of three pics from the re-fin'd neck along with another showing the normal Vega stain. The scorching from the carving machine is still visible under the new finish and matches the stain from the other neck. I don't think the overall effect looks bad but still, one can tell...
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Originally posted by mikehalloranquote:
Originally posted by BawheidDoes anyone know the significance/history of the blonde/natural finish on a 60s Vega PS5?
…I found a PS-5 on Reverb this morning. While the seller admits to some work being done, the refinished neck is not being mentioned.
I made a composite of three pics from the re-fin'd neck along with another showing the normal Vega stain. The scorching from the carving machine is still visible under the new finish and matches the stain from the other neck. I don't think the overall effect looks bad but still, one can tell...
Y'know i also saw this listing a couple days ago on elderly: https://www.elderly.com/products/vega-pete-seeger-extra-long-neck-banjo-60u-218399?variant=42451748487359
This one has also be refinished according to the description, and on photo 10 i reckon thats the scorch marks too?
Not as bad as imagined. I think that sunburst stain they used to cover it up looks terrible. It just looks super thick and sticky even through pictures. On those examples where it has started to wear away in big patches it also looks cheap.
Elderly admits it which is good. If the marks could be sanded away, Vega would have done so though this one is well done. A few Excells have blonde pots but those are rare—saw one at Gryphon Strings years ago.
Anyway, the last ones were made 55 years ago and the ‘burst finish has not held up as well over time. Martin necks were all hand carved and finished differently. Deering uses premium curly maple and normally uses a dark stain over the entire neck—blonde is an upcharge.
I figured this out years ago but didn’t know when it began till recently. Regents like my late ‘20s were blonde but I saw one made a few numbers later with that same stain pattern. Aha!
