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Originally posted by Tim in Alaska

Hello folks. I have a newer alvarez plane jane which I am trying to replace the head. It has an 11inch remo now which I ordered a new one. The tone ring, which I presume what it is, not tension ring, will not fit into the head. 11 inch is correct for the head but the metal ring glued to the head will not fit. I have two of the 11 inch remo heads both new and neither one works. could someone help with suggestions ? thanks and best regards Tim

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I'm confused as to what you mean. A tone ring would be under the head and smaller and the tension hoop sits on the outside.

Even with new items things can be out of spec now and then. Measure the tone ring, then measure the head. An 11" head should be a smidgen larger to fit over the ring. You may have to go to a head that's 11 1/16" to get a proper fit. It doesn't happen often but it does happen once in a while.

The metal ring glued to the head is the "flesh hoop." The inside diameter of the flesh hoop should be a tiny bit larger than the 11 inch diameter of the head so that it slips over the banjo's rim, which may or may not have a tone ring on top. The tension hoop or stretcher band goes over the installed  head, bears down on the flesh hoop, and is pulled tight by the tension hooks that grab either notches, a circumferential groove, or the top of the hoop, depending on the design of your banjo.

Perhaps you could post a photo of what part you're talking about and how the head is not fitting.

It's common for beginners to get banjo nomenclature wrong and not correctly describe the issues they're having.

Have you tried pushing harder?

Another trick is to set a small hammer on your workbench, and then try again. Sometimes that will scare the parts into compliance.

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Originally posted by Culloden

Even with new items things can be out of spec now and then. Measure the tone ring, then measure the head. An 11" head should be a smidgen larger to fit over the ring. You may have to go to a head that's 11 1/16" to get a proper fit. It doesn't happen often but it does happen once in a while.

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I concur. I once supplied a friend who wanted to replace the head on his SS Stewart. I measured it over multiple points round the rim and came to the conclusion an 11" would fit. It didn't. He ended up ordering an 11 1/16" head from the USA (we don't have heads readily available here). It fitted.

Thanks for your help folks I believe I will look for the 11 1/16th. Great to have folks that know what’s what and willing to share. Tim

Smakula Fretted Instruments is the best place to find banjo heads, especially "oddball" sizes.

smakulafrettedinstruments.com/...1/16.html

How do the new heads compare to the old one? Is the interior diameter of the flesh hoops the same?

How do you know the original head is 11 inches? By measuring? By model number printed on the hoop?

Tim in Alaska

If your banjo is of the type that we refer to as a "Bottle Cap", that is, looking at the banjo from the front, the rim with the integral flange looks vaguely like a huge bottle cap, then it is likely that you need a 11-1/8" low crown head.

My shop has several options in stock. You can go to my website to see the selections and order.

Bob Smakula
smakulafrettedinstruments.com

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Originally posted by banjonz

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Originally posted by Culloden

Even with new items things can be out of spec now and then. Measure the tone ring, then measure the head. An 11" head should be a smidgen larger to fit over the ring. You may have to go to a head that's 11 1/16" to get a proper fit. It doesn't happen often but it does happen once in a while.

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I concur. I once supplied a friend who wanted to replace the head on his SS Stewart. I measured it over multiple points round the rim and came to the conclusion an 11" would fit. It didn't. He ended up ordering an 11 1/16" head from the USA (we don't have heads readily available here). It fitted.

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SSS, like many builders of that era, used wooden tooling for forming the metal outer rims.  They started with slightly oversize and as it wore it would get smaller.  Then they would replace with a slightly larger size. 

I've seen SSS Universal Favorite rims on both sides of 11" by a 1/16.  I have found this with other makers of nickel so called "spun" rims. 

This has nothing to do with modern banjos made today in China.

Apparently, as per the original post, the poster indicates, here removed the original 11" REMO head.  So why would a larger diameter be appropriate?  Perhaps these newer "Asian" (Remo) heads are not up to spec.

I have 3 banjos - all 11" heads that I have owned for years, (2 ('67) Baldwins,1 (2PF) pre-war Gibson). I have ALWAYS used medium crown heads as I have an arch top and two flat heads. Medium crown was the height that always worked for either Remo or 5-Star heads on any of my banjos.  I have never had any issues fitting medium crown heads on them. While I have often used 5-star heads, I have also used Remo heads - which is all that one can purchase anymore.

I recently decided to place a new "Remo" head on one of my Baldwin (flat head) banjos. I ordered medium and high crown (top frosted) heads. First of all, they were all tight around the tone ring, they did not simply slip over the ring as they have in the past.  Secondly, the medium crown fit like a low crown head, so forget about getting it below the tension hoop cut for the finger board. The high crown (barely) fit after tightening well beyond the tension I normally desire. So I tried ordering another pair from a different supplier - and I had the same results.  NOTE:  These were ordered from reputable suppliers (well known here) that I have done business with in the past - these were NOT from Ebay or Amazon.

NONE of these heads were marked "REMO", yet (at least one supplier) indicated that these were new "Remo" heads.  I can only conclude that these are in fact the "new" Remo (Asian) heads. 

I measured the "high" crown head heights and I see appx 7/16, which should be a medium crown and should fit.  As these were a tight fit over the one ring, it appears that some height was lost due to that tight fit over the tone ring.  I am wondering, being that these are likely "Asian" manufactured heads, if there is not some kind of metric to US/English conversion issue here...

I have an older 5-star high crown head.  I measured it and I find that this has a FULL 1/2" crown height and it slips easily over the tone ring.  It appears that something has changed here. These banjos are all over 50 years old and I have never had an issue with new medium crown heads fitting.  I have some more checking to do, but I will either wind up recycling older heads (for now) until I can find some one selling marked REMO heads, that have the have both the correct diameter and crown height.

Has anyone else had a similar experience with these new "unmarked" (Asian/alleged) Remo 11" heads?  

Take it Easy ... MarK

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Originally posted by mvolcjak

Apparently, as per the original post, the poster indicates, here removed the original 11" REMO head.  So why would a larger diameter be appropriate?  Perhaps these newer "Asian" (Remo) heads are not up to spec.

 

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We haven't seen what the banjo is but if it is a bottlecap there maybe an assumption that it is 11 inches and may have been sold as 11 inches but in reality it's just a tiny bit bigger. I have a old broken bottlecap and was surprised to find this when comparing standard 11 inch wood rimmed banjos. However if it was consistent I would expect there to lots of posts about this over the years unless no one ever changes heads on bottlecaps.

Graham,
My post was related to the head size as originally posted as being 11 inches and my recent experience with newer "REMO" heads. If he is experiencing what I did, then it would appear that there are issues with these new REMO heads and their fit and crown sizing. My banjos are all American made, over 50 years old, and have always worked fine with both Remo and 5-Star medium crown heads. As per my previous post, this no longer the case - so something with Remo head sizing has changed.

With the above being said, has anyone else encountered issues with these newer (not marked) "Remo" heads and size/crown height?

Take it Easy ... MarK

My experience with bottle cap banjos has been that the cast aluminum rims are 11" diameter, but the tension hoops are 11-1/8". Trying to fit the larger tension hoops on an 11" head just doesn't work.

If Tim in Alaska can post pictures of his banjo, maybe we can figure out what he needs.

Bob Smakula

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Originally posted by mvolcjak

NONE of these heads were marked "REMO", yet (at least one supplier) indicated that these were new "Remo" heads.  I can only conclude that these are in fact the "new" Remo (Asian) heads. 

I measured the "high" crown head heights and I see appx 7/16, which should be a medium crown and should fit.  As these were a tight fit over the one ring, it appears that some height was lost due to that tight fit over the tone ring. 

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It's my understanding that Remo Asian (Taiwanese) heads are of the crimped construction type. The head goes into a metal U-channel, a metal bar goes in over which the head is folded, then the U-channel is crimped over this to trap the head around the bar and hold everything together. The crimped metal channel becomes the flesh hoop.

Remo US-made head use the epoxy attachment method.

As to measuring crown, I tried to do that for years with no luck since the bend at the edge is not sharp and so I couldn't decide where the plane of the head really was. Then within the last year I stumbled on a solution: I used a straighedge on top of the head and protruding over the point where I intended to measure. Then I set my short rule on end on the flesh hoop and saw where the overhanging straight edge crossed it. Exactly at the measure for the crown it was supposed to be.

As to who made the new heads you have: It's my understanding that Remo is now the only maker of banjo heads in the world.

Ken,
ThanX for your reply.
As both of my Baldwin (flat head - Style D and Style B)  banjos are American made, over 50 years old, and have always worked with medium (or high) crown heads, (Remo or 5-Star), then something has changed in head manufacture.

The medium crown heads will simply not allow tension so that the rim cutout is below the last fret. They fit like a low crown head.  So let's say that we now merely need to go to high crown heads - which I would be OK with if they would actually fit correctly.

An older high crown head I have fits with room to spare, (well below the rim cutout), so the head tension can be adjusted to however tight or loose one desires. These new high crown heads require tension close to the breaking point to get the rim cutout flush to (or slightly below) the last fret, so that the last few frets may actually be played. This is NOT the way a high crown head should fit!

I recall that the reason 5-Star stopped making heads was that their Asian supplier could not get it "right".  I think we are seeing a similar thing here with these Asian Remo heads.  That - or was I just unlucky and received bad head crown sizes from 2 different suppliers?  The heads are marked "M" or "H" so the markings appear to jive. (And note that I now have 2 medium and 2 high crown "Remo" heads and they are all marked and packaged the same - I can only hope that they will fit my arch top one day.) 

Interestingly enough, none of these heads has "REMO" printed on them ANYWHERE!  So if these are Remo heads, (and it appears these are the "new" Remo heads), they no longer appear to be willing to admit to ownership.  

As long as I have some older heads around I am OK, but I will not be buying these "new" Remo heads.  So buyer beware, these new (unmarked Asian) Remo heads may no longer fit like the older Remo and 5-Star heads.

Take it Easy ... MarK

Is there a possibility the new aluminum bead around the head is wider and causing it to
get pinched between the neck heel and ring/rim. Check for clearance between neck and bead of head. I have had to sand more off the neck end as well as from the top of the of the upper neck mounting area to allow the bead to go down further.

mvolcjak

Remo manufactures banjo and drum heads in two places.

USA made heads, with an epoxy filled aluminum channel flesh hoop, are made in Valencia, California.

The crimped head models are manufactured in Taiwan using materials made in the USA. Even the coating is done in the US. How that makes economic sense is beyond me.

The heads that Remo manufactures for me have no logo on the top of the head. I request that and they begrudgingly allow that request. They would prefer the Remo crown advertising on every head they sell, but myself and most of my customers prefer the blank look.

All USA Remo heads made in the last 5 years or so have a Remo logo on the aluminum flesh hoop. The Taiwanese heads are blank. The printing on the side of the flesh hoop is easily removed with acetone. A quick wipe will remove the logo and any model number information. We leave all the writing on the side to indicate it is a Remo head. The couple of heads that we shipped to you this year will have had the Remo logo printed on the aluminum.

I have found that most Remo heads are made slightly big in their diameter. But I occasionally receive heads that are 1/16" off bigger or smaller. I try to isolate those when discovered and re-mark them for the appropriate size.

On crown height; I have seen printed references for crown height from the 1960's that were 1/16" taller than what Is Remo's norm now.

I am good friends with one of Stewart-MacDonald's former product developers and he was always forthcoming with any question I had concerning their products. Before he retired, I asked him what was going on with 5-Star banjo heads. He replied that Stew-Mac was looking for a new manufacturer, as Ludwig "forgot" how to make those heads. Remo was their first call for a new manufacturer, but Remo Taiwan and Remo California don't communicate well. The last hope was having them made in D'Addario's Evans drum head facility. But some how D'Addario could not get a consistent crown height. That's when they gave up on 5-Star heads. My friend never mentioned 5-star heads being made in Asia. I will assume that they were all made in the US.

I hope this clarifies the origin of banjo heads that are currently available.

Bob Smakula

Bob,
Thanx for the update - so why are these heads not fitting correctly on 50-year-old Baldwins (both are from 1967)?

Both high crown heads purchased only work if tightened to an extreme - and definitely have a negative impact on tone. Again, an older high crown head (it is a 5-star) fits with room to spare - as I stated. When I purchased this particular Baldwin banjo used (well over 5 years ago), it had a medium crown Remo head on it. I only changed it as I have preferred 5-Sar heads for a number of years now.

So who is selling American made (and Remo marked) high crown banjo heads that actually measure 1/2"? Luckily, I never throw out older heads that were removed for cosmetic issues, so I do have older usable (Remo and 5-Star) heads.

Take it Easy ... MarK

Bob,
One final note...
As I have 2 Baldwins and a PW 2PF Gibson - I always place the logo under the tailpiece which effectively hides the logo, as I do not care to see it either. I am surprised that Remo is not marked anywhere on these new heads.  As to the way they are fitting, perhaps this was a wise choice.

Take it Easy ... MarK 

The Remo banjo head inconsistencies conversation has a new page. Go here.

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Originally posted by KCJones

Have you tried pushing harder?

Another trick is to set a small hammer on your workbench, and then try again. Sometimes that will scare the parts into compliance.

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This post should be mounted on a golden tablet in big letters at the banjo hall of fame wherever that is, made my day brighter!

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Bob specializes in vintage open back banjos.   He  has essentially retired.

  I do not think he or his master luthier Andy Fitzgibbons did work on new RBs or Alavarezes.  Bob and really Andy was the go to guy when I needed brackets for my odd ball one-of-a-kind 1893 Fairbanks Electric,  you can probably find someone easier to work with closer to home.  When he was working you had to bring him or ship himo the banjo to him in West Virginia.

Find someone who knows about rbs  near where you live.  Find the local Bluegrass pickers and they will take you to a local person.

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Originally posted by KCJones

Smakula Fretted Instruments is the best place to find banjo heads, especially "oddball" sizes.

smakulafrettedinstruments.com/...1/16.html

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quote:dumbest post ever

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Originally posted by writerrad

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Bob specializes in vintage open back banjos.   He  has essentially retired.

  I do not think he or his master luthier Andy Fitzgibbons did work on new RBs or Alavarezes.  Bob and really Andy was the go to guy when I needed brackets for my odd ball one-of-a-kind 1893 Fairbanks Electric,  you can probably find someone easier to work with closer to home.  When he was working you had to bring him or ship himo the banjo to him in West Virginia.

Find someone who knows about rbs  near where you live.  Find the local Bluegrass pickers and they will take you to a local person.

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Originally posted by KCJones

Smakula Fretted Instruments is the best place to find banjo heads, especially "oddball" sizes.

smakulafrettedinstruments.com/...1/16.html

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