>>Beyond just listening to a list of notes on an app and guessing if one is a D or an e sharp, are there ways to practice learning chord changes?<<

Listening to a lot of BG music will help you learn chord changes. As most skills, some do come to some folks easier than to others but by listening to the music closely you can practice to listen for chord changes and learn when they do change and to what chord they are changing to, As far as music theory goes you need to learn the chords in the different keys. Chords and notes are not randomly played across the instrument but are part of the structure that make up music. Most BG songs are usually played with only three chords, at least a lot of them are. (The I, IV, and Vth chord). Once you know the key that a song is played in, you should know the other two chords in most cases. Now just listen for the chord that is correct, or matches the melody that the singer is singing. A chord that is wrong should stand out like a sore thumb. Just work with one song over and over until you know when it changes and what it changes to. That skill set should carry over to other songs as well. Good luck and use your ears.

Bobby

Be careful watching the bass player. He/she can play several different notes within the same chord all over the fretboard. You don't need to be able to tell if a note is a d or e sharp, as you say, but you do need to be able to hear when the underlying chords change. Bobby is correct with the I IV V method. Know what key the song is in. Many basic bluegrass songs are in G, which means G (I) - C(IV) and D(V). I'd recommend Pete Wernick's Jam Songbook. The songs in there are all basically 3 chord songs and standards and he has the lyrics with either I IV or V noted as they change. You can find all of the songs on Youtube or a streaming service and just listen with the book in front of you so you can see and hear when the chords change. Start to hum along.

I recall having a booklet of basic chords for bass, and the author said that the notes could be played in ANY sequence.

Are you talking about playing at a jam, or playing along with recordings?
At the jams I attend, there's usually one guitarist who just plays the basic chords for the rest of us to watch, and I know enough guitar to know what chord that finger position makes.

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Originally posted by mike gregory

I recall having a booklet of basic chords for bass, and the author said that the notes could be played in ANY sequence.

Are you talking about playing at a jam, or playing along with recordings?
At the jams I attend, there's usually one guitarist who just plays the basic chords for the rest of us to watch, and I know enough guitar to know what chord that finger position makes.

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This is just me with one friend.  He has had his upright bass the same amount of time I have had my banjo although he does have a background with guitar and bass to build on while I never picked up my instrument until a few months ago.

i tried a jam session with experienced (I guess it's bluegrass but it's hard for me to tell) and the songs were all foreign to me and the music was so fast I wasn't able to follow.  There was an upright bass player at that but she was clearly advanced.   
 

one of the guys I work out with is an audio engineer for a big set of concert venues and sporting venues and he and I have been sorting through trying to play together.  He is the one with the upright bass.   His ear is pretty much perfect to the point that one time I had tuned my banjo to sharps or flats or not on a number of notes in G tuning and I didn't know it was off (I didn't realize the dots next to the A on my auto tuner meant sharp or flat) and he helped me fix that.

i just noticed that on his instrument not looking at the fingers I can definitely tell if he changes chords in a song.   But I can't always tell on the guitar or banjo.  
 

I can definitely hear a C or D chord on a piano for instance but if just one of them is played I can't really tell without guessing if it's a C or D.  If you told me "here are two chords the C and D from one octave" then played them I'd get it right every time.  But if you strummed a banjo chord at random and asked me what it is I'd be guessing.

but the bass notes even though they are the same half or whole steps, their frequency distance is much clearer to tell the C vs the D.   For some reason.

I suppose it's just practice.  I studied like mad to memorize every chord and what it is made of in four different keys up and down the neck so that I can be in a key, pull out a chord like D7 dom written on a card and then as fast as possible play that chord anywhere up and down the neck.   That's sort of how I memorized organic chemistry reactions or verb conjugations for language or amino acids and their side groups or certain types of equations.   Once I got the pattern I started practicing how to take any chord from the circle of fifths and for a given key Gmaj, double C (gCGCD), aDADE, and aEAC#E.

i know there are lots of tunings out there.  I've just really been making sure I understand the chords.  
 

I had thought that banjo music would be like piano music where a song was known, the sheet music was there and you just played what was on the page (I got that image from watching all the instruments in a symphony play together).   But it's sounding like it's a lot more feel and listening so I'm trying to learn to listen.   My lack of listening to music for many years (I spent 15 years in college and dislike studying to music and remained in academia after so I just don't listen to songs much) has sort of hampered me in understanding what songs should sound like.   I had thought this was like any other discipline as even my time spent learning to sketch was rigorous study of form, construction, shadow and space.   But in banjo and it sounds like guitar, the dominant way to learn is to hear others and imitate which is not something I've actually ever done in any discipline from high school and college swimming to math, science, language, writing, or art.   So this is quite difficult for me to apply my normal learning methodology to.   I'm not discouraged, I just haven't quite figured out how to study how to hear a song, pick it apart and then play it with a group while learning it.   A vocal recommendation from someone on these forums indicated that the best way to learn is to just go to places where music is played and listen.  The jam session I went to had an upright bass, a mandoline, four guitars, two banjos, one of those dulcimer things and someone with a steel guitar with pedals.   They went around in a circle with each (skipped the bass player) and one started a song, the rest listened to one or two parts, nodded and jumped in.   I had heard none of them before and they sounded great but trying to pick out what chord was being played or how the hundreds of notes they were playing at breathtaking speed was way above my ability.

Dissecting that, the place where I could tell there were chord changes was the bass player.   I have no interest in the upright bass but that instrument really showed me what the changes sounded like although I don't know how to tell an A from a B and down to G.

the other problem I have with this is if I YouTube "banjo songs" it feels like there is a repertoire of tens of thousands of choices all without sheet music and all incredibly fast.  I'm very unsure how to teach myself how to hear these chord changes, know what they are and then be able to guess what comes next in a song that's unknown to me. 

From 2007, chord progressions fall into groups, pick a group and play along until it sinks into your musical brain then move to the next.

Since you can hear the change, but are unsure of the name of the chord that was changed to, ask. No harm in that. Pretty soon you will hear how the I, IV, and V sound in relation to each other, so then you would just need to know the key in order to play the correct chord.

The people you jammed with already have this part figured out, so it seems like they just know, when in actuality they had to learn at one point. The chords aren’t random. They are harmonizations of the melody.

If you're in a bluegrass jam and they're playing the traditional music, you can usually figure there's going to be 3 chords in the song and the main chords will be the 1, 4 and 5 chords. If you're in the key of G, the chords will be G, C, D. A song generally starts on the 1 chord and usually ends on the 5 chord. Knowing that, you can figure you have a 50/50 chance of getting a chord change right. If it's not right, you'll hear the discord sound. Remember, the verse almost always has the same chord structure and the chorus usually has its own chord structure and they're not always the same, but sometimes are.

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

A song generally starts on the 1 chord and usually ends on the 5 chord.

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Songs almost always end on the 1 chord. They very often go the 5 (dominant) as the last thing before resolving, or coming home, to, the 1 (root).

Most bluegrass songs do tend to start on the 1 chord, though not necessarily the root note. Starting on the 3rd or 5th in the root chord is also common.

Bluegrass songs also start on the 4 or 5 chord.

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

If you're in a bluegrass jam and they're playing the traditional music, you can usually figure there's going to be 3 chords in the song and the main chords will be the 1, 4 and 5 chords. If you're in the key of G, the chords will be G, C, D. A song generally starts on the 1 chord and usually ends on the 5 chord. Knowing that, you can figure you have a 50/50 chance of getting a chord change right. If it's not right, you'll hear the discord sound. Remember, the verse almost always has the same chord structure and the chorus usually has its own chord structure and they're not always the same, but sometimes are.

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Ending on the 5 chord leaves the song sounding unresolved as the 5 chord wants to resolve to the 1. Starting chord can be chords other then 1, but ending chords are almost always the 1, the tonic or home chord.   

Just play with a guitar player
exclusively, and watch his chord changes
Do it until I you become familiar with hearing the changes.Do it for as long as it takes.
It will become second nature
Good luck.
E

Listen for the passing tones as well this indicates a chord change coming up.
E

I also recommend the guitar player sing the lyrics to a song as the lyrics can be a landmark,so to speak, to where the changes occur.

Banjo is not rocket science
It's harder
So I heard.

E

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Originally posted by jsinjin

I took a test several times on brainjo where songs were played twice and asked which one sounds correct and I keep getting the score “you did no better than random chance, did you really pay attention?” In those songs I really can’t tell why one is different from another on the banjo. If the melody had been wrong I would have known but the subtleties of the chords themselves are very hard to tell.

Beyond just listening to a list of notes on an app and guessing if one is a D or an e sharp, are there ways to practice learning chord changes?

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Not having a natural ear for music means it's going to take more work for you to learn what chord changes sound like, so you can eventually internalize that and have a musician's sense of when chord changes are coming and where they're likely going.

Or maybe you won't get it. I don't know.

Before I get into my very few suggestions, get it out of your head that you need to be able to recognize notes and name them by hearing them. Or that you need to be able to hear a chord out of context and name it. You don't. That's "perfect pitch" and is absolutely unnecessary for playing music. Most musicians do not have perfect pitch. That includes most musicians who play by ear and improvise.

What ear-playing musicians have is relative pitch. At its highest level, it's the ability to tell not only which of two notes is higher or lower, but also the amount of musical separation, or "interval." 

But here, too, not all ear players know their intervals. Or they don't know they know them. They do, however, recognize the sound of a 1 chord going to 4 or 5. Or 1 going to 6 minor. Or 1 to 2 (major or minor) to 5 back down to 1. 

I believe it comes from repetition. Playing lots of music and listening to lots of music. And the same music over and over.

So here are some things I think you can do over and over that might help you get it:

1 - Get lyric and chord sheets to songs you want to learn and have recordings of. Preferably basic bluegrass or folk songs with only three or four chords. No need to get too advanced. Determine the key of the song (if not stated, it will most likely be the final chord).  Using the key as your guide, write the number of each chord next to its letter name. 

Then listen to a song and follow its sheet. See and hear where the chord changes happen. Listen to the sound of each type of chord change. Listen for anything in the music that might signal a change is coming. (There won't always be) Listening in headphones might be a good way to help you focus on the sound. Repeat. The goal here is to learn the sounds not only of certain chord changes by name, but more importantly by number or degree of scale. That skill will translate to all other keys and is a requirement for playing by ear.

Remember: Repeat.

2 - Play chords to the songs, either in time with recordings or to accompany yourself singing. Just pinch or strum the chords. No rolling or picking. Just making music to go along with the song. Repeat.

There's plenty of time after you learn the sounds of chord changes and can chanage chords in time to begin working on actual backup and not strums or pinches on the beats.

Keep playing with your friend. Maybe he can offer guidance since he has guitar experience and gets it.

I can't think of any way other than doing it over and over. And the reason for using song sheets and recordings is because you're not ready to play with groups of others.

Good luck.

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

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Originally posted by jsinjin

I took a test several times on brainjo where songs were played twice and asked which one sounds correct and I keep getting the score “you did no better than random chance, did you really pay attention?” In those songs I really can’t tell why one is different from another on the banjo. If the melody had been wrong I would have known but the subtleties of the chords themselves are very hard to tell.

Beyond just listening to a list of notes on an app and guessing if one is a D or an e sharp, are there ways to practice learning chord changes?

---

Not having a natural ear for music means it's going to take more work for you to learn what chord changes sound like, so you can eventually internalize that and have a musician's sense of when chord changes are coming and where they're likely going.

Or maybe you won't get it. I don't know.

Before I get into my very few suggestions, get it out of your head that you need to be able to recognize notes and name them by hearing them. Or that you need to be able to hear a chord out of context and name it. You don't. That's "perfect pitch" and is absolutely unnecessary for playing music. Most musicians do not have perfect pitch. That includes most musicians who play by ear and improvise.

What ear-playing musicians have is relative pitch. At its highest level, it's the ability to tell not only which of two notes is higher or lower, but also the amount of musical separation, or "interval." 

But here, too, not all ear players know their intervals. Or they don't know they know them. They do, however, recognize the sound of a 1 chord going to 4 or 5. Or 1 going to 6 minor. Or 1 to 2 (major or minor) to 5 back down to 1. 

I believe it comes from repetition. Playing lots of music and listening to lots of music. And the same music over and over.

So here are some things I think you can do over and over that might help you get it:

1 - Get lyric and chord sheets to songs you want to learn and have recordings of. Preferably basic bluegrass or folk songs with only three or four chords. No need to get too advanced. Determine the key of the song (if not stated, it will most likely be the final chord).  Using the key as your guide, write the number of each chord next to its letter name. 

Then listen to a song and follow its sheet. See and hear where the chord changes happen. Listen to the sound of each type of chord change. Listen for anything in the music that might signal a change is coming. (There won't always be) Listening in headphones might be a good way to help you focus on the sound. Repeat. The goal here is to learn the sounds not only of certain chord changes by name, but more importantly by number or degree of scale. That skill will translate to all other keys and is a requirement for playing by ear.

Remember: Repeat.

2 - Play chords to the songs, either in time with recordings or to accompany yourself singing. Just pinch or strum the chords. No rolling or picking. Just making music to go along with the song. Repeat.

There's plenty of time after you learn the sounds of chord changes and can chanage chords in time to begin working on actual backup and not strums or pinches on the beats.

Keep playing with your friend. Maybe he can offer guidance since he has guitar experience and gets it.

I can't think of any way other than doing it over and over. And the reason for using song sheets and recordings is because you're not ready to play with groups of others.

Good luck.

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This is incredibly useful advice!   Thank you so much!

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

A song generally starts on the 1 chord and usually ends on the 5 chord.

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Songs almost always end on the 1 chord. They very often go the 5 (dominant) as the last thing before resolving, or coming home, to, the 1 (root).

Most bluegrass songs do tend to start on the 1 chord, though not necessarily the root note. Starting on the 3rd or 5th in the root chord is also common.

Bluegrass songs also start on the 4 or 5 chord.

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You're correct in songs usually end on the root or #1 chord.  I stand corrected.

If you read my post you'd note that I said "generally", not  set in stone.  I try to use the KISS principal when giving advice to beginners so they won't be completely confused and perhaps lose interest because it's just too hard to understand. 

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Originally posted by 250gibson

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

If you're in a bluegrass jam and they're playing the traditional music, you can usually figure there's going to be 3 chords in the song and the main chords will be the 1, 4 and 5 chords. If you're in the key of G, the chords will be G, C, D. A song generally starts on the 1 chord and usually ends on the 5 chord. Knowing that, you can figure you have a 50/50 chance of getting a chord change right. If it's not right, you'll hear the discord sound. Remember, the verse almost always has the same chord structure and the chorus usually has its own chord structure and they're not always the same, but sometimes are.

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Ending on the 5 chord leaves the song sounding unresolved as the 5 chord wants to resolve to the 1. Starting chord can be chords other then 1, but ending chords are almost always the 1, the tonic or home chord.   

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You are correct and I misspoke.  

Consider finding someone who could help you with ear training. You have to have a second set of ears. Someone who has good relative pitch. I often find a student may not have the ability to match pitch. If that is the case your instructor must help you find a starting note. Then help you with a second note. Have patience, It could take weeks to train your brain to be able to sing those two notes. From there you keep adding notes until you have a major scale. Work to where you can sing a major scale (within your vocal range) ascending and descending. Once your instructor says you have that then work on the chromatic scale up and down. This could take months. From there have your instructor play simple two chord songs until you can “HEAR” the chord changes. From there go to 3 chord songs, 4 chord songs, etc. Determine if you are a visual, auditory, or kinesthetic learner. The instructor can help you more by presenting the lessons accordingly. If you like music and want to play, don’t let anyone tell you that you are tone deaf. A truly tone deaf person doesn’t like music, doesn’t listen to music, wants nothing to do with music. Many peoples challenge is that they have never trained their ears. Hope this helps.

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Originally posted by jsinjin

An example of where I get confused is a simple song, “long journey home”. I’ve been working on this one through brainjo and I see the G major chord for the first bar. But there is a single note that is at fret 2 for the fourth string which should be a. Is that a special part of the G major chord used there? How does this get interpreted? Is that one note of E an extra that is not part of the G major chord? How do I interpret this in a song when playing by ear for a song?

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First: I bolded two phrases to show that you corrected yourself. Fourth string at second fret is E, as you wrote the second time. Third string at second fret is A, and should an A note come up during a measure of G chord, the explanation will be the same. Read on.

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The very simple reason there could be a melody note on E when the called-for chord of the measure is G (made up of the notes G, B and D) is that melody notes are not always "chord tones" (notes from the current chord).

Put another way: Melodies can and often do go outside the current chord. The vast majority of the time, these non-chord melody notes are going to be what we call "passing notes." Here's a great borrowed explanation:

A passing note, often referred to as a “non-chord tone” or “non-harmonic tone,” is a musical note that is not part of the main chord but is used to bridge or connect two chord tones. Think of it as a stepping stone that guides the listener from one main note to another, adding depth and flavor to the melody. 

For those who are new to the world of music, imagine you’re walking on a path and come across a small stream. Instead of jumping directly to the other side, you use a stepping stone in the middle to ensure a smooth transition. In music, passing notes serve a similar purpose, ensuring a seamless flow between primary notes.

The above comes from a music teaching site called Skoove. I would never expect there could be a whole lesson on the concept of passing notes, but there is! Here's the page.

And here's a link to the 3-1/2 minute YouTube video embedded at that lesson page.

What I would add is to emphasize that these passing notes -- which serve to get you from one chord tone to another -- are not essential melody notes. They're not part of what I frequently call the "core melody" in these discussions of basic music concepts. What I mean is if you remove the passing notes and play nothing in their space, a recognizable melody remains. I commented in another discussion this week that the core melody of a vocal song can usually be pared down to nothing more than the first note of every measure, sometimes including the first note of a new chord should the chord change mid-measure.

Of course, I'm not looking at the music you're describing, but based on my familiarity with Long Journey Home, I don't believe there are any non-chord notes in important melody-defining spot. Here are the lyric syllables for the notes I think are the core melody:

Lost . . . mon- . . . two . . . bill . . . Two . . . bill . . . Two . . . bill  

Lost . . . mon- . . . two . . . bill . . . on . . . long . . .  home.

As in most things musical, "always" and "never" don't apply here. There are instances in some songs -- usually not in those in the 1940s-60s bluegrass canon -- in which important melody defining notes can be outside the chord. These notes may be so dominant they color or alter the chord.

I think Richard Thompson's "1952 Vincent Black Lightning" does this.  I believe the first note of the melody, which he hangs on across at least a full measure, is a D against an A chord. That turns the sound into A-sus or A-sus-4 (same thing, I think). The written chords I've seen simply call for an A. If you play an A-sus it would be correct. If you play only an A, the vocalist's note adds the "sus" (suspended note).

There will be times in music where an important note comes before or anticipates a chord change. I think this is another type of suspension. You probably won't encounter this too often. Don't let it confuse you when you do. 

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

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Originally posted by jsinjin

An example of where I get confused is a simple song, “long journey home”. I’ve been working on this one through brainjo and I see the G major chord for the first bar. But there is a single note that is at fret 2 for the fourth string which should be a. Is that a special part of the G major chord used there? How does this get interpreted? Is that one note of E an extra that is not part of the G major chord? How do I interpret this in a song when playing by ear for a song?

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First: I bolded two phrases to show that you corrected yourself. Fourth string at second fret is E, as you wrote the second time. Third string at second fret is A, and should an A note come up during a measure of G chord, the explanation will be the same. Read on.

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Thanks!

 

I was actually typing this on my phone which is an early edition mini iphone that has a small screen and aggressive autocorrext function.  It hated the use of "an E" and kept trying to correct over and over again.  The first a was part of "an E" that through many backups and repeat trying to correct the correction finally was left without my realization.

Your explanations of the way the music "works" is so refreshing!  If you had written a book titled something like "Banjo Music-The Why" I would have read it 10x by now with highlights and notes in the margins.   I am certain that my questions sound pedantic and have little to do with basic song playing but my goals in learning are to understand how music is put together and played.  I happen to have chosen the banjo merely on a whim and to be honest I like the way it sounds and the one that I purchased has a lot of character so I would like to learn to play it.  Along the way I want to learn music theory.  I have a textbook that a colleague in the music department recommended on introduction to music theory that I work through and every night in addition to my practice of basic mechanics of the banjo, I work through relevant chapters in that book to songs that I have found in banjo tablature or songs I find interesting in piano or guitar that I work to translate to banjo tablature just for that practice.   I had not heard of passing tones before.  The relevant part is fro the first bars of Long Journey Home gDGBD tuning Brainjo Level1:

         0                                                          0                0

         0                                                          0                0

         0                                                0        0          0    0

0                       0          2         

                0                            0                            0                0

Imagining a bar between these two measures and the lines for the strings

I was not sure how that E on the fourth string (2nd fret) fit into the open G.  I can hear it.  I can play it, I can't tell if it is melody or not but it's there and I know it's not part of the G chord.   There are many other instances of random seeming notes in the various tablatures and I just wasn't sure how they fit into the composition.  Your explanation makes sense and there is a chapter on passing tones which goes into pretty significant detail.

Thanks very much.

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Originally posted by jsinjin
Your explanations of the way the music "works" is so refreshing!  If you had written a book titled something like "Banjo Music-The Why" I would have read it 10x by now with highlights and notes in the margins.   

 

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Thank you so much. You're too kind.

A good recent book on this topic is "Basic Music Theory for Banjo Players" by Hangout member Rick McKeon. I have a copy, and even though I knew nearly all of it already I think it's a handy reference. And it's presented in a logical need- or useful-to-know progression. I think it could use more examples or exercises to make its points more clear. But that's a quibble.

Remember this about music theory: It's DEscriptive, not PREscriptive. (a phrase one of my early writing bosses used to use all the time).  Music theory explains the "why." But it's not about "do this." I know there are "rules" or best practices of composition. I know next to nothing of them.

Also remember this: There's one rule of music theory that trumps all other rules: If it sounds good, it is good.

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Originally posted by jsinjin
I am certain that my questions sound pedantic and have little to do with basic song playing but my goals in learning are to understand how music is put together and played. 

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Absolutely not. You have understandable, expected and frequently seen confusions. I'm sure I and others have answered similar questions several times this year alone.

The challenge for those of us who try to answer is to keep it from getting even more confusing. I'm not a music teacher and my own knowledge of music theory doesn't extend much deeper than what I actually apply in my playing.  I think I do an OK job explaining because I understand just enough, I can relate what I believe I know to my actual playing of music, I can improvise and play by ear so I have a strong sense of what works (for me),  I've been in the same place as some of the questioners, and I spent most of my career writing explanatory type communications for mostly technical, industrial, and professional products and services. I'm a natural explainer. Sometimes too much.

The other challenge, after trying to explain just enough to help you and other beginners understand these abstract concepts, is to convince you that you don't necessarily need to understand them yet. Some of your questions may well relate to how music is played and so it's good to clear up confusion. But there are things you really don't need to concern yourself with. 

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Originally posted by jsinjin
I was not sure how that E on the fourth string (2nd fret) fit into the open G.  I can hear it.  I can play it, I can't tell if it is melody or not but it's there and I know it's not part of the G chord.   There are many other instances of random seeming notes in the various tablatures and I just wasn't sure how they fit into the composition. 

Unfortunately the formatting of the tab you tried to share didn't survive, so I still don't know exactly what you're seeing. But there are versions of a common G lick that hit the low E note on its way to resolving on the root open third string G note. A common three-note ending sequence is 4th@2, 1st@0, 3rd@0.

Now that I've pointed you to an explanation of passing notes, I can tell you that non-chord notes in three-finger bluegrass (Scruggs) style don't necessarily occur in exactly the same way as the passing notes described in the lesson and video I linked. What?

The description I linked to, while totally correct and useful in a general sense, refers to linear melodies. Three-finger bluegrass banjo as pioneered by Earl Scruggs does not play or render simple linear melodies. It approximates melodies within arpeggiated chords, various licks, and modular phrases incorporating non-chord notes (all of which is often called "filler") to play both a melody and an accompanying harmony on one instrument at the same time. It's a complete "arrangement" with melody notes and harmonizing filler notes in between and wrapped around the melody. Some of those notes will be in the current chord. Not all of them.

A prime example among dozens, hundreds, or more: One of the most common and definitive banjo sequences you will play is the three-string passage of pick 3rd@2 - slide to 3rd@3 - pick 2nd@0 (coincident with arriving at 3@3) - pick 1st@0.   You will commonly play this against a G chord.  Look at those first two notes: A sliding to B-flat. Those aren't in a G chord.  They're approaching a B note which is in the chord. And it still might not be the eventual target melody note. That might be the open 1st string D. Or it might be an open 3rd string G after this phrase (which might contain even more notes), which is a "pick up"

The concept here relates directly to your point about being able to hear the 4th string E in context but not understanding what it's doing. These notes I've just just described are often part of the banjo filler on the way to a melody note. Sometimes licks with non-melody notes substitute for melody. (I can point you to a great lesson on that, which is beyond what you currently need)  It takes a lot of listening to bluegrass banjo to begin to hear how this works. Some people need more listening than others. To some, bluegrass banjo will always be just a flurry of meaningless notes from which they cannot discern a melody.

I lack the knowledge and vocabulary to explain it any further. Either you hear it or you don't. I'm referring to hearing it in others' playing. You have to hear it done right before you can start to do it yourself.

So to my suggested method for teaching yourself to hear chord changes by listening to recordings of vocal songs, add more listening to banjo music -- especially banjo introductions and solos on vocal songs -- to hear how Scruggs style bluegrass banjo approximates melody together with non-melody and non-chord notes.

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Originally posted by jsinjin

On the bass I can definitely tell the change but all I keep thinking about is the list of possible chords that it could be from A to G with every major minor or seventh in between.

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And finally this point.

The reason you can hear the chord change on bass is that nearly all the time the bass will  play the root note (letter name note) of the new chord on the first beat. A basic bass pattern in a 2/4 bluegrass song will be root (I) on the count of 1 and V on the count of 2.  This assumes the "pulses" you hear are ONE and TWO and ONE and TWO and . . . .  If you hear with four pulses at the same tempo (speed) then you'd count ONE and TWO and THREE and FOUR and  the bass would play the second I and V on the counts of three and four.  But the two-pulse feel of most bluegrass really implies 2/4.

I don't mean to open a can of worms or steer you wrong. I write my banjo tab as if it's in 4/4 because I find it easier to read. This is getting into stuff you don't need to know.

Back to hearing the chord changes. Since the bass is nearly always playing the root note on the first beat of the chord, all you have to do is find and match the note and you'll have a big hint as to the chord. After you match the note (your banjo version will be an octave or two higher) then you just need to determine if the chord is major, minor or perhaps a seventh (dominant seventh).

So add something else to your listening lessons: Learn the sound of major and minor chords. This is important. If you can't hear the difference, then you have a real challenge going forward.

Try playing some three-finger versions of chords that actually do occur in both major and minor forms in various bluegrass songs.

A Major: x-2-2-2
A minor: x-2-1-2

D Major: x-2-3-4
D minor: x-2-3-3

E Major: 2-1-0-2
E minor: 2-0-0-2

That's enough for starters. The note that changes is the "third" in the chord. In major chords, it's the major third (interval). In minor chords, the note is lowered by one-half step (one fret) to the minor third.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

Matching the root note is one way to keep from having to try every possible chord from A to G. As others have said, the chord you need is almost never going to be from among all possible chords. Because of the way this type of music works, there are usually only two choices for the next chord, since you're already playing one of the three chords the song likely uses. As they've also said those three chords will most often be the 1, 4 and 5 chords. A good number of songs will add a fourth chord -- typically the 2 major or minor, or 6 minor. Some bluegrass songs will even have 5 or 6 chords. And even when the chords don't make obvious sense for the key -- as in G-E-A7-D7 for Salty Dog Blues in G -- there actually is a reason for them explainable in music theory. 

Final thought on all of this: In one of your responses you mentioned the role of memorization in some of your academic studies. Well, music is as academic a study as any and there's a lot that can (and probably should) be memorized. Keys, their signatures, their scales, and their "diatonic" (of the scale) chords are all worth memorizing. Eventually. (I won't admit here what I haven't memorized) You can start with the chords to the keys you're most likely to play in without capo then go on from there. Eventually.

Keep at it. Good luck.

I was thinking of chiming in here, but Ken (as usual) has done a great job of saying what needs to be said.

John-I understand..I approached the banjo with the same highly analytical mindset that you did as though it were applied mathematics. As many have aptly pointed out..that doesnt work so well. One thing I will be trying that may be of interest is a program called "Song Surgeon 5" It is a program that slows down any song to whatever speed you want. Not only that but it automatically tells you what key the song is in and shows you what chords are being played as they are being played. Does a bunch of other things too. What I want to do is make clips of a number of BG songs that change from G to C, and then G to D, etc. and play those clips over and over so eventually I can train my ear to hear specific chord changes regardless of the melody. Dont know if that will work or not but Im going to give it a try.

Years ago, I learned upright bass with the DVD by Andy Hohwald. Since upright basses are big and expensive, the course could be done on a bass ukulele or the Satan-infested electric bass. But after spending a few months with Andy's DVD, I could hear changes much better. I don't play bass, did it to help hear changes.

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Originally posted by jsinjin
I had thought that banjo music would be like piano music where a song was known, the sheet music was there and you just played what was on the page (I got that image from watching all the instruments in a symphony play together).   But it's sounding like it's a lot more feel and listening so I'm trying to learn to listen.  

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I know I said "finally" in another message but I forgot this was one more point I wanted to address.

Banjo in most settings is not played like a symphonic instrument. Orchestral musicians play off of sheet music because they are not supposed to stray even a single note from their composed part. Yes, there are some highly composed pieces involving banjo. Bela Fleck and Jens Kruger, for example, have written commissioned works for banjo with orchestra or string quartet. I think they tend to memorize their parts, though they may also use sheets for reference. I could be wrong.

Even in rehearsed ensembles, banjo players (and their bluegrass bandmates) generally play somewhat improvisationally. And so you're right there's a lot of feel and listening involved. But players typically don't become good improvisers -- making up as they go and playing songs differently each time -- until they've been playing for a while and have worked up the banjo vocabulary from which to build alternative solos. I assume most of us started out in a place similar to where you are: learning specific versions of songs, perhaps as part of a course of study. The length of time we know and play only our initial learned versions of songs depends on what kind of musician we eventually become.

The improvisational nature of bluegrass makes this music a lot like jazz. The chord progression provides a basic structure for each song. Within that structure, each instrumentalist is free to play something that fits. If the situation is an actual performing band, some songs may have explicitly worked out portions -- intros, endings, signature phrases, multiple instruments playing well-defined harmony lines, hard starts and stops -- as well as solos in which the instrumentalists do what they will.  The degree to which any player's solos vary from performance to performance can also vary. Depends on what they're personally trying to accomplish as a musician.

This gets back to why listening is such an important part of learning bluegrass/Scruggs style banjo.