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Not often these are on the open market...I remember reading about this banjo in Tony's chapter in Masters of the 5 String Banjo.
Super cool!
elderly.com/products/gibson-pb...935343807
Would this make a good first banjo?
I've been considering a Vangoa "Remo" Professional Five String Banjo, or possibly a Gold Tone OT-2 "Mastertone" for slightly more, but this one looks good too. Both this and the OT-2 are Mastertone banjos, so that means they're pretty much the same thing. But the Vangoa seems like a much better deal.
What does this banjo offer over a similarly built Gold Tone or Vangoa?
This sale has nothing to do w/ a musical instrument & it's merits or age. This plectrum is being sold as if it was a work of art w/ a special provenance. A fantasy price was created out of thin air for a fantasy buyer, in hopes that it will pass as a Tony Trischka relic.
Edited by - tdennis on 08/19/2024 14:36:36
The price of $82,500 seems a bit high for what it is; I suspect that about $10,000-15,000 of that is provenance associated with Trischka's ownership.
It would be a great first banjo. It would also be a great last banjo.
I bought my first banjo for $40 sometime around 1966. It was a real piece of crap. About the same time, J.D. Crowe offered Jim Faulkner $1,100 for a pre-war, flat head RB3. Faulkner wanted $1200 for it, but neither one would budge on price, so J.D. didn't buy it. At the time, I got a loan for $650 to buy a motorcycle. I ended up giving the motorcycle to my best friend from college. For another $550 on that loan, I could have purchased a banjo that's now worth more than $100,000.
quote:
Originally posted by tdennisThis sale has nothing to do w/ a musical instrument & it's merits or age. This plectrum is being sold as if it was a work of art w/ a special provenance. A fantasy price was created out of thin air for a fantasy buyer, in hopes that it will pass as a Tony Trischka relic.
I assure you that Elderly does not create prices out of thin air, with no regard for what an instrument is, or its merits or age. What an outrageous thing to say.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old TimerIf you read the ad, note that it "had" a Frank Neat neck that got broken, and now has a Tokai neck (says Gibson in peghead).
Actually, it says "Tokai" on the peghead.
quote:
Originally posted by Keith Billikquote:
Originally posted by tdennisA fantasy price was created out of thin air for a fantasy buyer . . .
I assure you that Elderly does not create prices out of thin air, with no regard for what an instrument is, or its merits or age. What an outrageous thing to say.
I assume (possibly incorrectly) this is on consignmemt, rather than something Elderly has purchased for resale. So I expect the price reflects what Tony wants to net out of it after Elderly takes its commission. I also assume that offers will be entertained.
A Gibson PB-3 flathead from the early 30's goes anywhere from 50-65k give or take a few thousand depending on the condition, originality, and who made the conversion neck. As far as how much Tony having owned and used this one for a long time effects the value I don't know. If I had the money I'd love to have Tony's old flathead. 83k is around what one of these would have gone for at the height of their value in the early 2000's before the market crash. These are still very rare collector's items and are arguably the best banjo you can get for three finger style, and this is an especially good one. Whoever gets it is going to be very happy with it.
Edited by - banjo1930 on 08/19/2024 16:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by tdennisThere's not much of a market to compare with this hybrid Gibson/Tokai banjo. So, it strikes me as a one-off fantasy price, & I'll stick to that. Accepting & apologizing for this kind of gouging is a bit odd, unless you're in the class that is contemplating buying the sacred object.
Do you follow the market on these because there definitely is a lot to compare to. In fact, most gibson flatheads have new five string necks like this. These very rare TB or PB flatheads with new necks have been selling in the mid to high five figure range for many many years now and it's definitely not a one off fantasy price, though it is on the high side of what the market is today. If it were an original five string it would be a 6 figure banjo. They're very rare. Only a little over 100 PB-3's were ever made, and many of them were archtops. Just because someone doesnt understand or agree with the market doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Edited by - banjo1930 on 08/19/2024 17:35:56
quote:
Originally posted by banjo1930
most gibson flatheads have new five string necks like this.
When Tony acquired this one, it had a Frank Neat neck. It was damaged and replaced with the Tokai.
How much does the name on a conversion neck matter?
Edited by - Old Hickory on 08/19/2024 18:37:20
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickoryquote:
Originally posted by banjo1930
most gibson flatheads have new five string necks like this.When Tony acquired this one, it had a Frank Neat neck. It was damaged and replaced with the Tokai.
How much does the name on a conversion neck matter?
Imo, it matters more who made the neck than what is on the headstock. A Neat neck will make a prewar flathead easier to sell and arguably a little bit more valuable than a neck made by a "lesser known" builder. Likely whoever buys this banjo will have a different neck fit to it.
Edited by - banjo1930 on 08/19/2024 19:00:57
I'll guess that Tony had to replace the neck in a hurry. So if a Tokai neck was what he could get his hands on quickly, so be it. He had jobs on the books and needed to get the bamjo up and running.
Apparently the Tokai neck was comfortable enough that he didn't see the need to replace it.
Whoever can afford to buy this instrument won't care much that it has an un-famous neck. They can easily afford to commission a neck by the famous maker of their choice. Or they might decide they like the Tokai neck and leave the banjo as-is. If so, and the Tokai name bothers them, they could even have the peghead veneer replaced.
For those who are yapping about the price, see what herringbone D-28's are going for, and this banjo doesn't look so expensive. And the number of D-28's built is roughly twice the number of flatheads that were built.
Edited by - rcc56 on 08/19/2024 19:12:11
quote:
Originally posted by Keith Billikquote:
Originally posted by tdennisThis sale has nothing to do w/ a musical instrument & it's merits or age. This plectrum is being sold as if it was a work of art w/ a special provenance. A fantasy price was created out of thin air for a fantasy buyer, in hopes that it will pass as a Tony Trischka relic.
I assure you that Elderly does not create prices out of thin air, with no regard for what an instrument is, or its merits or age. What an outrageous thing to say.
I've sold instruments through Elderly many years ago, on consignment at 15% (yes, that long ago). Elderly came up with a price but the seller always had the last say on a price.
If they still have that policy or even if they don't, I can't imagine that Elderly had anything to do with setting the price on this one. It seems very likely that TT set the price considering consignment fees, etc. and simply asked Elderly if they were interested, or not.
Theres the other side. If you bought one of these grails, played it, and had a banjogasm then you would be satisfied as it what you expected. But if you bought one and 6 months later the minds refusal to admit it isnt the best one you picked fades, then you have a depression in your gut that wont fade no matter how many times you show others that jer.
This one is less risky so maybe its a worthwhile price bump.
quote:
Originally posted by 550Spyderquote:
Originally posted by Keith Billikquote:
Originally posted by tdennisThis sale has nothing to do w/ a musical instrument & it's merits or age. This plectrum is being sold as if it was a work of art w/ a special provenance. A fantasy price was created out of thin air for a fantasy buyer, in hopes that it will pass as a Tony Trischka relic.
I assure you that Elderly does not create prices out of thin air, with no regard for what an instrument is, or its merits or age. What an outrageous thing to say.
I've sold instruments through Elderly many years ago, on consignment at 15% (yes, that long ago). Elderly came up with a price but the seller always had the last say on a price.
If they still have that policy or even if they don't, I can't imagine that Elderly had anything to do with setting the price on this one. It seems very likely that TT set the price considering consignment fees, etc. and simply asked Elderly if they were interested, or not.
You are correct, to an extent. Elderly usually gives a range of what they view as a reasonable retail price for a consignment. Within that range, the owner can choose where in that range to price it, depending on whether they want a quick sale (lower end of the price range) or maximize profit (higher end). With something like this, Tony and/or Elderly appraisers may have decided to test the market a bit, with the provenance of Tony's ownership and the confidence that buying from an established retailer adding to the value. However, they don't just allow owners to set whatever price they want, in a way that would result in an unethical asking price.
quote:
Originally posted by tdennisThere's not much of a market to compare with this hybrid Gibson/Tokai banjo. So, it strikes me as a one-off fantasy price, & I'll stick to that. Accepting & apologizing for this kind of gouging is a bit odd, unless you're in the class that is contemplating buying the sacred object.
Perhaps you're missing the important point that the Tokai has virtually no impact on the asking price, and therefore the "market to compare with" isn't Gibson/Tokai banjos, it is 1930 prewar Gibson Style 3 flathead banjos, in which the neck that is attached to them affects maybe 2% of the market price. You could remove the neck entirely and just list the prewar pot for basically the same price.
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