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Jun 8, 2024 - 2:52:15 PM
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Badjer

USA

263 posts since 9/2/2005

Hello,

Hoping we could discuss what I have here. Picked this up a couple weeks ago from a great older guy who unfortunately no longer can play. The serial number is 64381 which identifies it as a 1923. The Oettinger tailpiece is engraved as a Vegaphone De-luxe. But the wood dowel looks newer and has no identification markings on it. The resonator bracket looks newish, but the resonator looks aged. The heel and the back of the rim have the abalone so not sure if it was original to the banjo. The 5-string neck has the carved heel that identifies as a De Luxe, but I'm not seeing any other pictures that have the White Ladye griffin on the back of the headstock. Been reading other posts that say you can identify a modified plectrum neck as the 1,3, and 5 inlays are off-center. They don't appear to be. Getting back to the tailpiece, is it possible it was modified to add a 5th string? The 3rd string finger appears slightly wider than the others. 

It sounds fantastic, so I'm really just looking to clean it up and play it. It has many years of gunk on it. I was thinking about brasso or simichrome, but after reading some of the posts I think the better move is just some diluted Simple Green and keep the patina. It would be easier to completely tear it down, but I don't want to lose the current sound in my efforts. The head is a Remo and relatively current, so that was replaced at some point not that long ago. So tear it down so I can fully wipe down each part and put on a new head to make it pretty or clean it up as best I can?

Took several pics and attaching. Would love some input and knowledge from those of you who love these old Vegas. Thanks!














Edited by - Badjer on 06/08/2024 14:54:42

Jun 8, 2024 - 3:59:53 PM
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5962 posts since 5/29/2011

The dowel and the resonator attachment bracket may have been replaced. Everything else looks original as far as I can tell. The Whyte Laydie Griffin may have been a one-off project; Vega didn't always adhere strictly to spec. It looks like a fine old banjo.
A little judicious cleaning with a damp rag should be enough. Even green cleaners might have some ingredients that could damage plating or a finish that's a hundred years old. A certain amount of patina is a desirable thing.

Jun 8, 2024 - 4:05:08 PM

rcc56

USA

5251 posts since 2/20/2016

Please don't use anything other than water with dish detergent to clean the metal parts. Just about all the commercial metal polishes [even the so-called non-abrasive ones] do indeed have abrasives, and will damage the plating.

An abalone band on the rim cap is indeed correct for 1910's DeLuxes. I'm not sure about the early 20's, though. The neck is well made, and pretty much correct in style, but the detail work in the carving, the engraving of the fingerboard inlays, and the shape of the heel cut do not appear to me to be Vega factory work that I am familiar with. The dowel stick is definitely not original.

I think what you have is an authentic DeLuxe pot with a reproduction neck. but I'm not quite sure about it. Hopefully Bob Smakula, Andy Fitzgibbon, or Mike Halloran will offer a more experienced opinion.

To ensure a more accurate evaluation of the neck, a clear side shot of the neck from the peghead to the 2nd or 3rd fret would be useful; and also close-ups of the front and back of the peghead and clearer shots of the fingerboard inlays.

Edited by - rcc56 on 06/08/2024 16:21:27

Jun 8, 2024 - 5:13:05 PM

Badjer

USA

263 posts since 9/2/2005

Thanks Mark and Bob for looking this over for me! I suspected this was a repro neck and that is just fine. I've added the additional pictures you requested. Please let know if these don't meet the mark. 10-4 on the water and dish detergent to clean it. Thanks for that. Is that ok for the wood as well (in very limited quantity)? And should I tear it down to clean it? I've done several rebuilds but this banjo is 70 years older than anything I've worked on and I don't want to be sorry. 

Jun 8, 2024 - 5:14:33 PM

Badjer

USA

263 posts since 9/2/2005

New Photos added.








Jun 8, 2024 - 6:12:50 PM
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rcc56

USA

5251 posts since 2/20/2016

The inlays just don't look quite right to me. The heel carving is expertly done and much closer to what I'm used to seeing, but it looks like a different tool was used for the fine marks in the low areas than what was used at the factory.

But I'll leave the final word to a more experienced eye.

I'll suggest naphtha for cleaning the woodwork. If you do use water, use a damp rag rather than one that's saturated, and move to a clean section of the rag for every wipe.  You can remove the tension hoop and the hooks and nuts, but I would leave the shoes and bracket band in place.  If the tone ring slides off easily, you can remove it, but make sure you get the alignment right when you put it back together.  If it doesn't slide right off, I would leave it in place.

Edited by - rcc56 on 06/08/2024 18:29:12

Jun 8, 2024 - 6:38:48 PM

5962 posts since 5/29/2011

Should you tear it down to clean it? That depends. Do you like the way it sounds now? If you take it apart and clean it, can you get it back to where it sounds the way it was? If so, have at it. If not, don't monkey around with it.
If you have some experience doing set up work on banjos you shouldn't have any problem taking it apart and getting it back together.

Jun 8, 2024 - 7:56:09 PM
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2056 posts since 1/13/2012

The neck looks like a reproduction to me.

Jun 9, 2024 - 2:54:28 AM

Bill H

USA

2313 posts since 11/7/2010

I agree with Any, it looks like a conversion neck. Here are some pictures of a 1930 Artist that I used to own.


Jun 9, 2024 - 6:53:08 AM

15822 posts since 10/30/2008

Comparing your photos to my 1912 No 7, there are many points on that neck that don't synch up. Of course, things might have changed over 11 years, but, it doesn't share some key attributes.

First, the heel is sloped too gradually, mine is more square.

The area around te 5th string tuner has a sharp corner in the binding when mine is VERY nicely rounded/joined. The 5th pip on mine has a spherical top with a collar at the bottom and it is "below" the 5th fret, not right at the end of the 5th fret.

The black wood of the top layer of peghead is MUCH thicker than the little black line of marquetry beneath the yellow middle layer of wood on mine, compared to yours.

The inlay pattern is different on these two banjos. Mine has no inlay at the fret between 17 and 22. Your inlay at the 5th fret is upside down compared to my banjo.

The heel carving is not as "tightly" curled on yours compared to mine.

Yet, your conversion neck (as I believe it to be) is quite lovely, at least as viewed from riding by on a horse.

Finally the neck is much too clean and shiny (and ebony not worn) compared to the heavily played, patina-ed pot.

I wouldn't clean it at all, other than dusting. Even rubbing with a damp cloth will eventually affect the gold. Or spray it with a can of compressed air, like to you do to electronics.

Edited by - The Old Timer on 06/09/2024 06:58:15

Jun 10, 2024 - 2:01:21 PM

Badjer

USA

263 posts since 9/2/2005

Thanks again everyone for the advice. Dick, blowing out all the years of dust rather than with a rag was really smart. That helped a ton. Read between the lines of what Mark said and didn't tear it down. Cleaned it up as best I could intact to preserve my new favorite sound. Used a tiny amount of detergent and water to clean up the flange. Hardest part was getting the resonator bracket aligned properly so the flange would quit chewing into the resonator. Very happy with the results. Thanks guys!


 

Jun 11, 2024 - 12:29:58 PM

168 posts since 9/27/2014

The neck reminds me of the great work of John Greven when he worked for George Gruhn.

Jun 12, 2024 - 3:42:31 PM

Badjer

USA

263 posts since 9/2/2005

Thanks Benjamin. It sure looks very similar to others I just found pictures of online that he did. Including the lack of the Vega banner in the headstock inlay. I'm going to do some research on Mr. Greven. 

Jun 12, 2024 - 5:23:34 PM

rcc56

USA

5251 posts since 2/20/2016

I can pass on just a little bit of info.
He started out as a repairman in George Gruhn's then tiny shop in the 1970's. Later, he opened his own shop, and developed an impeccable reputation as a guitar builder. As his skills developed, he become known for the intricate pearl work that graces many of his instruments. He was capable of some very complicated work that many of us shy away from. He had a tutorial on his website on how to make the old Martin "bird's beak" peghead joint, which is something that most of us are afraid to even try.

I can't say much more, except that those familiar with his work have held him in high respect for decades. I guess he finally retired. His website is no more.

If you're ever in Nashville and can catch George Gruhn on a slow day, he could probably talk about Mr. Greven for several hours. And, he could probably identify his work and tell you whether Greven did some of the work on your banjo. Or, since you're in Wisconsin, you could visit Elderly Instruments and learn more about him from Stan Werbin.

Edited by - rcc56 on 06/12/2024 17:28:06

Jun 12, 2024 - 6:45:33 PM

15822 posts since 10/30/2008

Well done Scott!

Jun 18, 2024 - 11:58:24 AM

13195 posts since 10/27/2006

Late 1920s pot but I don't believe a celluloid wall on a 1923 Vegaphone. Otherwise, I have little to add except a question:

What is the nominal scale (inside of the nut to the 12th fret x 2)?

Edited by - mikehalloran on 06/18/2024 12:00:20

Jun 19, 2024 - 5:43:11 AM
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Badjer

USA

263 posts since 9/2/2005

Mike, nominal scale is exactly 27".

Jun 19, 2024 - 9:13:15 PM

13195 posts since 10/27/2006

quote:
Originally posted by Badjer

Mike, nominal scale is exactly 27".


Nice -- right on spec. Most do not and sometimes Vega didn't either.

Jun 21, 2024 - 10:16:56 AM

1605 posts since 1/13/2006

I have done two of these as well including one for my friend Reed Martin and a few #7's and 9's so have spent quite a bit of time looking at the pearl and metal engraving and heel carving on originals. I agree with others that the neck is a repro, but well done and generally pretty close to the originals. I like his use of the original small shaft tuners. These take some real time and effort to do, and you've got yourself a real nice instrument.

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