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Originally posted by A Drum On A Stick

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Originally posted by pmartin9363

 The reason that i am asking and brought if up is that I wanted to understand why I am learning that B and E have no sharps, but in the Order of Sharps there are B# and E# listed. Just a bit frustrated at trying to learn more about music theory.

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I'm also a music theory noob, so please call me out if I'm way wrong.  My understanding is this:

 

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That's pretty much it, A Drum. 

In practice, you won't see music written in the key of C-Sharp. The key signature for C# contains seven sharps--every note is sharped. That's cumbersome and confusing, so musically literate people will use D-flat instead. (Five flats--Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, and Gb--is still a little daunting, but at least it's better than seven sharps.)

In the bluegrass world, I've noticed, people who aren't musically literate almost never talk about flat keys, with the exception of B-flat. Instead of Db, they'll talk about C#; instead of Eb they'll talk about D#, etc. (FWIW, the key signature for D# would have NINE sharps: everything is sharped, and F and C are both double-sharped.) I suspect this may have something to do with how we use capos, but that's just speculation.

In written music, it may be proper to use E# and B# when writing certain chords. As you may know, the recipe for a major chord is to take the first, third, and fifth notes from the major scale. Let's say you're writing out "The Old Homeplace" in the key of A. That second chord is a C#, which is properly written C#-E#-G#. If you write it that way, it will LOOK on the page like a major chord. But if you say, "Well, E# is the same as F, " and write the chord as C#-F-G#, a musically (and theoretically)  literate reader will be a little puzzled at first--that cluster of notes wouldn't look, at first glance, like anything in particular. In that case, writing E# as F would be like bad punctuation in a book, or a poorly worded highway sign: They might make sense at some level, but the brief moment of "What the heck was THAT?!?" will slow the reader or driver down.

Peter,

First off I've only been play a few years. I'm still learning so here's my take on the circle of fifths.

I am going to use an example of the circle of fifth's. I used this to teach a little girl and it worked for her. Everyone can tell me that isn't correct but, its another view.

Ok, the middle string is G. played open it's G, 2 fret is A, 4th fret is B, 5th fret is C, and the 7th fret is D. This is the notes in the circle of fifth's for the KEY of G.

Now if your capo is at the 2nd fret you are in the key of A. Everything moves down one and continues this way as you keep moving down the fret board.

As I said this is my way and probably not correct. You will get some b's or #'s in different key as you go down the board. For the circle of fifth's the formula I use is a movement of 2-2-1-2 frets for key of G.
Key of A would be 2-1-2-2, Key of B would be 1-2-2-2. Ect, going down the G string.

Now that I've confused the whole thing , good luck.

Rich

In relation the the order of both Sharps & Flats, it is probably best to relate them back to their relative diatonic major scales of 7 notes.

So with the order of Sharps being:

F, C, G, D, A, E, B,

Their related Major scales adding a sharpened note in each scale change becomes are:

G (1), D (2), A (3), E (4), B (5), F# (6), C# (7).

And with the order of Flats;

B, E, A, D, G, C, F,

their relative scales are:

F (1), Bb (2), Eb (3), Ab (4), Db (5), Gb (6), Cb (7).

So when looking on sheet music at the key signature, the written key becomes obvious.

You will note the 2 anomalies here:

C# and Cb,

C# Major with 7 sharps is equivalent to Db Major with 5 flats.
Cb Major with 7 flats is equivalent to B Major with 5 sharps

These 2 keys are found mainly in orchestral music as a Classical Pedal Harp is tuned open strings to flat;
that is with all seven pedals in the non-engaged position so it is therefore tuned to Cb as it has 7 strings per octave and accidentals and key changes are implemented using the pedals.

You will note also that F# Major with 6 Sharps equates to Gb Major with 6 Flats.
As there are 12 notes in the chromatic scale, in theory one could have the keys of:

G# Major with 8 sharps, D# Major with 9 sharps, A# Major with 10 sharps & E# Major with 11 sharps.
However writing these keys on the standard staves would be awfully messy and ridiculous for the musician to decipher so G# = Ab (with 4 flats), D# = Eb (3 flats), A# = Bb (2 flats), E# = F (1 flat).

Extrapolating that out with the flat keys beyond Cb is also possible but unwieldy for the same reasons,
however you can see (bearing mind the math) that 1 sharp would account for 11 flats as similarly 3 flats would for 9 sharps.

As some else pointed out on here E# occurs in F# major while both E# & B# only occur in C# major. As for the 2 flat anomalies, Cb is found in Gb major whilst Cb & Fb turn up in Cb major.

Additionally, when it comes to sheet music the relative minors of the major key come into play and use the same key signature.

ie: G major = E minor,  Eb major = C minor, etc,

When it's all said and done, it is only really advantageous when it comes to sight reading, still it is good to be able to get your head around some of this theory even if it is only a basic understanding.

I know it's a mind bender but I hope that explains it a little and is not too confusing.

The simplest direct answer to the question is so that you can write music on a staff in a key with a particular key signature. It is so theres no double notes on the staff.

Like in the key of F#, if you had both "F" and "F#" in the key signature, it would be impossible to write music on the staff without constantly changing the accidental (from F natural to F sharp). If you simply label "F" as its enharmonic equivalent, "E#" now you can write in F# without that problem.

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Originally posted by thebcs

As I understand it, Cb/B# and Fb/E# exist, but only used by composers when otherwise there would be confusion due to the key the piece is in. There are also double sharps and double flats, just to muddy the waters a bit more. Only serious composers care about this. Even the most deadly serious banjo players don't know or care, or need to!

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WRONG! There is no such animal as a double sharp (##) or a double flat (bb) as those notes are impossible to write in standard music notation. To prove it, see what your tuner calls a ## or bb.

For example, & we've been through this before, just because Lester & Earl capo-ed up one fret to suit their voices & called it G# does not make it so.

Furthermore, doing so wrecked havoc on the fiddle & mandolin, pulling the necks loose due to increased tension. They could have saved their instruments by re-tuning 1/2 step lower & playing in A & D positions (Ab & Bb).

There is also speculation they did it to get around copy write laws. Bill Monroe's Bluegrass Breakdown vs. Foggy Mountain Breakdown. 

There is such a thing as double flats and double sharps and F&S did not capo up. They tuned up.

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

There is such a thing as double flats and double sharps and F&S did not capo up. They tuned up.

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Oh yeah? Post this on the Music Theory forum & see where that gets you.

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Originally posted by monstertone

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

There is such a thing as double flats and double sharps and F&S did not capo up. They tuned up.

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Oh yeah? Post this on the Music Theory forum & see where that gets you.

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Flatt and Scruggs tuned their instruments a semitone sharper then standard tuning. So if they played a tune in G major without a capo, it would sound like the key of G#/Ab major. This would commonly be written as the key of Ab major as to stay away from the double sharp needed in the key signature. However there are some instances where you need to use a double sharp. In the key of G#minor, you have to raise the 7th (F#) a semitone to create leading tone used in the harmonic minor scale which would create an F double sharp. So double sharps do exist, just not in key signatures. 

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Originally posted by monstertone

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Originally posted by thebcs

As I understand it, Cb/B# and Fb/E# exist, but only used by composers when otherwise there would be confusion due to the key the piece is in. There are also double sharps and double flats, just to muddy the waters a bit more. Only serious composers care about this. Even the most deadly serious banjo players don't know or care, or need to!

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WRONG! There is no such animal as a double sharp (##) or a double flat (bb) as those notes are impossible to write in standard music notation.

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